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Author Topic: Reloading Tip - Bullet Seating concentricity < .001  (Read 1462 times)

Offline Magnum_Willys

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Reloading Tip - Bullet Seating concentricity < .001
« on: April 20, 2017, 09:05:33 AM »
Bullet Seating - Anyone check their loads with a hornady concentricity gage? I have a basic seating die and was getting .002-.005 runout so played around and was able to drop it to average less than .001 (.0005-.002). 

My process:  Seat bullet 1/4 way in, back off enough to rotate shell 1/3, repeat - 4 strokes to fully seat.

Im sure guys have been doing this for 50 years but was new to me. Getting better results now than even Redding Comp die.

Offline HighlandLofts

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Re: Reloading Tip - Bullet Seating concentricity < .001
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2017, 09:15:19 PM »
Very interesting, I'll have to load some the regular way and some useing this method and see what difference it make. Thanks for sharing this.
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Offline kentrek

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Re: Reloading Tip - Bullet Seating concentricity < .001
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2017, 09:39:10 PM »
I've debated on doing this.....it's definitely not a unanimous green light that this will help out as when you chamber the round the chamber should aline every thing... "allegedly"

So I've put it on the back burner of random things to purchase and do...cool to see your having good results tho.....what kind of improvement have you noticed ?

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Re: Reloading Tip - Bullet Seating concentricity < .001
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2017, 10:26:35 PM »
Interesting, have you been able to see an improvement in bullet accuracy?
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Offline j_h_nimrod

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Re: Reloading Tip - Bullet Seating concentricity < .001
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2017, 11:15:29 PM »
I'm struggling with a new gun and am wondering about runout. Redding Deluxe dies and everything else I can figure for an accurate load has not worked.

I there any data on how bad runout effects accuracy?

This tool is on my short list.

On a side, does anyone have a borescope near Hoquium that would be willing to take a look at my bore?

Offline high country

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Re: Reloading Tip - Bullet Seating concentricity < .001
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2017, 02:18:41 AM »
Runout certainly affects accuracy, but MOST people cannot out shoot .004-.005" runout. I've found that I can hold .001" by using quality brass (lapua) and lee collet dies. I use a hornady seater, but the forster or wilson is a better choice no doubt.

If I chuck up my brass it runs just under a thou for runout. If you were to check your bullets you'd see there's actually some runout there too. If you do the work properly and aneal, turn and square your brass it's quite possible to get very low runout. Will YOU benefit from it?......that's a tough call as you're talking about shaving a couple hundredths off your group and most guys fail a wind call or hold that much.

Offline Magnum_Willys

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Re: Reloading Tip - Bullet Seating concentricity < .001
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2017, 06:08:17 AM »
Interesting, have you been able to see an improvement in bullet accuracy?
I suspect the difference is small - Im not yet to the point to notice it yet. I need to start writing runout on the cases to see if theres any coorelation to accurate loads. 

Offline Biggerhammer

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Re: Reloading Tip - Bullet Seating concentricity < .001
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2017, 06:32:59 AM »
Persenaly I can understand runout concern with a custom rifle, quality barrel, reputable smith and a spot on bedding job. Not to mention quality optics, a pilot actually capable of driving the rifle and a shooting distance that would make near perfect runout noticeable.

As for crimping, I have crimped one bolt action chambering in 30 years of reloading (.450 Ultra Magnum). I leave my crimping for some of my AR/Gas gun loads.
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Offline Magnum_Willys

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Re: Reloading Tip - Bullet Seating concentricity < .001
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2017, 07:18:44 AM »
I'm struggling with a new gun and am wondering about runout. Redding Deluxe dies and everything else I can figure for an accurate load has not worked.

I there any data on how bad runout effects accuracy?

This tool is on my short list.

On a side, does anyone have a borescope near Hoquium that would be willing to take a look at my bore?
.   Good trigger?   Runout would be way down on my list of suspects.  But it is nice to spin the cartridge and see a zero runout. Doesnt mean it will shoot straight but its progress.

Offline high country

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Re: Reloading Tip - Bullet Seating concentricity < .001
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2017, 08:10:01 AM »
What's your load recipe, and how far off the lands are you? What's this rifle do with other loads.....does it shoot anything well?

Offline Yondering

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Re: Reloading Tip - Bullet Seating concentricity < .001
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2017, 10:07:22 AM »
I've debated on doing this.....it's definitely not a unanimous green light that this will help out as when you chamber the round the chamber should aline every thing... "allegedly"


No, in most cases a rifle chamber will not re-align a bullet with lots of runout, same for case necks. The bullet may (or may not) straighten out once it's fired, but definitely not when the round is just chambered.
If you actually need less runout, fix that in the loading process, don't expect the chamber to do it for you.

Offline j_h_nimrod

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Re: Reloading Tip - Bullet Seating concentricity < .001
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2017, 11:53:31 AM »
I'm struggling with a new gun and am wondering about runout. Redding Deluxe dies and everything else I can figure for an accurate load has not worked.

I there any data on how bad runout effects accuracy?

This tool is on my short list.

On a side, does anyone have a borescope near Hoquium that would be willing to take a look at my bore?
.   Good trigger?   Runout would be way down on my list of suspects.  But it is nice to spin the cartridge and see a zero runout. Doesnt mean it will shoot straight but its progress.

Runout is way down the list but is where I am at now. I think if it were bad enough to cause problems I would be able to tell without a gauge. Just wondering though.

Trigger is crisp 2.5lbs.

28 Nosler, 175 ABLR, 78.3 gr H1000, Fed 215M, seated 3.55 oal.

I have tried lengths from SAAMI to jam with numerous loads and recipes and it seems to like being about .2 off the lands the best.

It seems I can't get anything to shoot consistently. Proof round was 180 VLD Hunting over 81 gr. Retumbo at 3.540 oal. I need to recreate this but have not had time to get the bullets ordered.

Sorry for the thread jack.

Offline high country

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Re: Reloading Tip - Bullet Seating concentricity < .001
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2017, 01:04:11 PM »
I'm struggling with a new gun and am wondering about runout. Redding Deluxe dies and everything else I can figure for an accurate load has not worked.

I there any data on how bad runout effects accuracy?

This tool is on my short list.

On a side, does anyone have a borescope near Hoquium that would be willing to take a look at my bore?
.   Good trigger?   Runout would be way down on my list of suspects.  But it is nice to spin the cartridge and see a zero runout. Doesnt mean it will shoot straight but its progress.

Runout is way down the list but is where I am at now. I think if it were bad enough to cause problems I would be able to tell without a gauge. Just wondering though.

Trigger is crisp 2.5lbs.

28 Nosler, 175 ABLR, 78.3 gr H1000, Fed 215M, seated 3.55 oal.

I have tried lengths from SAAMI to jam with numerous loads and recipes and it seems to like being about .2 off the lands the best.

It seems I can't get anything to shoot consistently. Proof round was 180 VLD Hunting over 81 gr. Retumbo at 3.540 oal. I need to recreate this but have not had time to get the bullets ordered.

Sorry for the thread jack.

Lrab and h1000....that's gonna be a pain. I spoke with nosler and it is a common problem. Slow powder pushes the bullet through the leade inconsistently. I had to seat very deep and crimp in order to get the lrabs to work in a few rifles.....but they went from 3.0" to 0.4" I also was able to get them to shoot by using faster powders. If you have any fast for the weight powders, load a few and see if it improves. It's worth seating some like .150" and crimping with the h1000 too.

Offline Magnum_Willys

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Re: Reloading Tip - Bullet Seating concentricity < .001
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2017, 12:13:17 PM »

28 Nosler, 175 ABLR, 78.3 gr H1000, Fed 215M, seated 3.55 oal.

I have tried lengths from SAAMI to jam with numerous loads and recipes and it seems to like being about .2 off the lands the best.


How long is your barrel ?

Offline j_h_nimrod

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Re: Reloading Tip - Bullet Seating concentricity < .001
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2017, 11:58:30 PM »
Interesting about slower powders and the lrab. Does make sense if seated far out with less initial concentric stability. The faster powders would get it through the leade quicker and possibly more consistently. I have some 7828 and H4831 which may work. I am also considering trying the 168 ablr, ~0.10 shorter and if I can get a few fps more velocity it does not fall behind the 175 until ~1200 yards, well beyond my range:).

26" barrel plus muzzle brake.

I have had rifles over the years that are pretty consistent 1-1.5" shooters with any load I come up with and struggle to tighten it up to <1" but usually get it figured out. This is the first rifle I have had that opens from <3/4" to 3"+ with a change of a few hundredths in seating depth or by using a different primer. Very finicky to say the least!

I think I have come up with a .5 moa recipe, now to see if I can get it to perform consistently...  I did try the multiple rotations during seating today to try and negate any runout, we'll see if it all works.

Offline high country

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Re: Reloading Tip - Bullet Seating concentricity < .001
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2017, 06:36:08 AM »
It's a combination of the jacket material, bearing length, boat tail shape and ignition curve all crammed into one. I seated at +.2" and I was shooting like the old days....reduce the depth by .1" and it's a shotgun. I did run it to 900 and it's sub moa the whole way.

Offline Magnum_Willys

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Re: Reloading Tip - Bullet Seating concentricity < .001
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2017, 10:14:05 AM »
It's a combination of the jacket material, bearing length, boat tail shape and ignition curve all crammed into one. I seated at +.2" and I was shooting like the old days....reduce the depth by .1" and it's a shotgun. I did run it to 900 and it's sub moa the whole way.

So it liked .100 more jump to the lands ? i.e. seating deeper into the case ?

Oops nevermind saw your answer above - .200 off the lands.  Maybe I better try the LRAB in my Weatherbys if they like a lot of jump - I can't even get that close!
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 10:22:53 AM by Magnum_Willys »

Offline Magnum_Willys

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Re: Reloading Tip - Bullet Seating concentricity < .001
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2017, 10:30:10 AM »

28 Nosler, 175 ABLR, 78.3 gr H1000, Fed 215M, seated 3.55 oal.


I Punched your numbers into quickload and as far as speed goes it says accuracy node is at 78.4 gr so you should be right there ( Is that how you came up with 78.3 ? )


Offline j_h_nimrod

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Re: Reloading Tip - Bullet Seating concentricity < .001
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2017, 10:45:06 AM »
Nice! No, it was trial and error. I tested to find max load in my gun then backed it off until accuracy was the best. Currently I am at about .225 jump, there is only ~.125 of the bearing surface remaining outside the case mouth before ogive goes inside the mouth. It seems to be at a happy point though :tup:  if it ever stops raining I will head out n test my current loads. I need more ABLRs quick though!  Loaded my last 15 yesterday.

Offline Magnum_Willys

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Re: Reloading Tip - Bullet Seating concentricity < .001
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2017, 11:24:51 AM »
Nice! No, it was trial and error. I tested to find max load in my gun then backed it off until accuracy was the best. Currently I am at about .225 jump, there is only ~.125 of the bearing surface remaining outside the case mouth before ogive goes inside the mouth. It seems to be at a happy point though :tup:  if it ever stops raining I will head out n test my current loads. I need more ABLRs quick though!  Loaded my last 15 yesterday.

Yea I'm finding tuning loads this weatherby eats bullets and powder like crazy!

I guy I know on here has had good luck with 195 bergers, 81.5gr Retumbo, 3.67 coal in his 28 Nosler, 26" barrel.  Shoots 1000 yards regularly.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 11:48:36 AM by Magnum_Willys »

Offline j_h_nimrod

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Re: Reloading Tip - Bullet Seating concentricity < .001
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2017, 11:46:52 AM »
I bet!  78 grains a bullet is nothing compared to 100+ you are probably using. I need to get an 8lb H1000 next time I see one. Quick load is on my list too...

Offline hogslayer

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Re: Reloading Tip - Bullet Seating concentricity < .001
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2017, 12:01:43 PM »
I just did some load development for my 28 nosler with a 27" barrel using N570 which is slower than retumbo.  Interesting enough i ended up with lower grain charge with an ES of 6 over 6 shots.  3050 with the 195 is where my rifle likes to shoot.  .0020 off lands.  Problem that i was having was with Nosler brass.  Only could get about 3 shots after case web expansion.  I switched to 26 Norma brass and resized them and they are lasting longer.  I couldn't/didn't need to use that much powder before i got the velocities i wanted. 

Offline j_h_nimrod

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Re: Reloading Tip - Bullet Seating concentricity < .001
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2017, 12:24:06 PM »
Sounds like you have a good load. I wouldn't mind using the Viht powders, I just have never been around anyone who has used them much and it seems most of the places I go have a limited supply. Don't think I have ever heard anything bad about their powders and most speak highly of them.

My Nosler brass has been ok so far but seems to have a thick neck and I am considering turning it down a bit. Have you measured the amount of neck constriction before the button brings it back up to set neck tension?  I am getting ~7 thousandths extra constriction before sizing button brings it up to about 3 thousandths neck tension. So far webs have been fine.

Good idea upsizing the 26 Norma brass, I have always been very happy with Norma brass. It is cheaper too!  Almost $3 for a piece of brass seems excessive.

Offline Magnum_Willys

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Re: Reloading Tip - Bullet Seating concentricity < .001
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2017, 12:49:21 PM »
Sounds like you have a good load. I wouldn't mind using the Viht powders, I just have never been around anyone who has used them much and it seems most of the places I go have a limited supply. Don't think I have ever heard anything bad about their powders and most speak highly of them.

My Nosler brass has been ok so far but seems to have a thick neck and I am considering turning it down a bit. Have you measured the amount of neck constriction before the button brings it back up to set neck tension?  I am getting ~7 thousandths extra constriction before sizing button brings it up to about 3 thousandths neck tension. So far webs have been fine.

Good idea upsizing the 26 Norma brass, I have always been very happy with Norma brass. It is cheaper too!  Almost $3 for a piece of brass seems excessive.

I get my n570 from grafs online.   I have a standard Redding die that does the same thing - shrinks the neck .007 then expander brings it to .003.   For my Lapua I just use a Redding bushing die with no expander to get .002.  But not available for Wbee.  Ordered a custom Lee collet set ($75) so when that comes we will see how that does.

My best sign for pressure is measuring the web / belt.  If it grows by more than .002 its too hot.  At .0025 it starts getting snug in my chamber and you can't resize the very base.

Offline CaNINE

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Re: Reloading Tip - Bullet Seating concentricity < .001
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2017, 01:55:21 PM »
I use the hornady tool and find it useful for checking runout, primarily just to ensure my process is in control.  I used to, but no longer use the tool to actually correct runout.  My loaded rounds land around 0.003 runout; +/- 0.002.  I've found that using the hornady tool to correct down to 0.001 or less doesn't yield any measurable result off the bench, and certainly not in the field.  I'm also suspicious of what applying lateral force to the bullet/neck junction is doing to your neck tension.  IMO consistent neck tension is far more important to consistent accuracy than correcting a few thou variation in runout.  so, my recommendation is to use the hornady tool (or some other variety from Sinclair or Neico) to check your runout.  If your process is yielding greater than say 4 or 5 thou of runout then you're better off to find the source (brass, dies, neck expanding method, etc) and eliminate the problem.

there are some knowledgeable reloading folks on this forum - perhaps we can start a new thread with tips and tricks for preventing runout?  Is that of interest to anyone?

 

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