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Author Topic: New guy with a bunch of questions!  (Read 4103 times)

Offline reelamin

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Re: New guy with a bunch of questions!
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2017, 07:28:48 PM »
I am also new to muzzle loading and need a lot (or little) input on my load development.  I don't want to take over the thread, so should I post in this or another place? 

Online Blacktail Sniper

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Re: New guy with a bunch of questions!
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2017, 07:31:09 PM »
I am also new to muzzle loading and need a lot (or little) input on my load development.  I don't want to take over the thread, so should I post in this or another place? 


Welcome.  :hello:

Start your own thread, introduce yourself and tell us a little about your experience and ask away.

Lots of good information and folks here!!
It is better to be consistently incorrect than inconsistently correct...

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Offline MadMooner

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Re: New guy with a bunch of questions!
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2017, 11:53:58 AM »
Thanks for the advice all. I picked up a pound of T7 FFFG and some RWS 1081 caps. Have a measure, peep, and some Barnes MZ's coming in the mail!

Going to order some of those cast bullets and sabots to play with as well. Just have to figure out which sabot?

Welcome reelamin - Post anything ya like on this thread. I'll post how my efforts turn out!

Offline TriggerMike

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Re: New guy with a bunch of questions!
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2017, 01:02:03 PM »
Whatever you do, stay away from powerbelt bullets.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Just a question, what issues do you have with Powerbelts? I've killed a cow and bull the last two years that have run a combined 45-50 yards before expiring. My gun loves them and I've had pretty good terminal results.
I've killed elk and deer with them as well. I've also found a ton of fragments in the hides and organs of the elk that I've seen killed by them. There are many other bullets out on the market that retain their weight on impact much more efficiently and kill more effectively. I won't use and wont recommend something when I know that there are many other better options out there. The one thing they have going for them is how widely available they are but planning ahead solves that.

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Offline TriggerMike

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Re: New guy with a bunch of questions!
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2017, 01:03:48 PM »
And I used to shoot the 348gr with 100 grains of powder, just for reference.

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Offline Sabotloader

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Re: New guy with a bunch of questions!
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2017, 01:22:48 PM »
Thanks for the advice all. I picked up a pound of T7 FFFG and some RWS 1081 caps. Have a measure, peep, and some Barnes MZ's coming in the mail!

Going to order some of those cast bullets and sabots to play with as well. Just have to figure out which sabot?

Welcome reelamin - Post anything ya like on this thread. I'll post how my efforts turn out!

you might take a hard look at these also



https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/bullets/products/452-controlled-fracturing-muzzleloader-265gr-bullet?variant=28146206856

This bullet is the one that I use for elk - it is a little much for a deer but it works there also...

https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/bullets/products/458-controlled-fracturing-305gr-bullet?variant=1073755480



Both of these might fit your rifle better the Barnes may be really tight going down. The 305 is a 458 - 45-70 rifle bullet the 265 is a .452 and you can get several different thicknesses of sabot to change the loading pressure.  These are very accurate

This target was shot with the 265's but it was shot with a scope.  It still gives you and idea how accurate the 265 can be.





Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline MadMooner

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Re: New guy with a bunch of questions!
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2017, 02:05:53 PM »
Nice. I'll check those out. The Barnes are listed at .451,  if they are tight I assume I can get some sabots with thinner walls? Crush Rib maybe?

The cast I want to try can be ordered sized from .451-.453.

Just have to wait for the rifle and accouterments now!

I dig the shield on the chrono!  I dig the es/sd on the numbers as well.

Offline reelamin

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Re: New guy with a bunch of questions!
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2017, 02:21:15 PM »
The OP said it was good, so I will post up what I'm doing and hopefully it will help others.  First muzzle loader for no other reason than I want to give it a try after using rifle and bow to hunt.  I have my rifle and two Optima's to get ready for this fall.

Starter Rifle is a Bighorn 50cal, installed a #11 Breech Plug, scope mounted for load development, and then will install a Williams FP rear sight.  Ordered a Spin Jag loader, Spin Jag hunting ram rod, and use a Knight Ultimate bench rod.  Cleaning with 50/50 Balistol and water, and finishing with Butches Bore shine to get it all out.

Sabots- MMP12, MMP24, Harvester, and Hornady sabots in 44 and 45.   Bullets- 300gr XTP's in 44 and 45, and now have all the Barnes 290-300gr bullets.   I also have Badman HC in 44 and 45 to use as practice loads.

Powder/Caps- 777 3f and BH209 I have used and have come Pyrodex 2-3f in the wings.   I only have chronographed the BH209 with the following results  100=1820fps, 110=1960fps, 120=2029fps, 130=2100fps.   Accuracy with the 44's was not good at all and stopped even trying.   The Barnes TMZ and the 45XTP were in the 2.5" average range using 100-130gr of BH209 and 5gr of 777 as a kicker.   Barnes being more accurate by about .5" but was super hard to load.  I even tried the Barnes in my other Sabots...but the Yellow factory were the most accurate.

Tried some 777 only for my practice loads (Badman HC Lead is same Sabots) and was swabbing/cleaning between shots.  Needless to say it went to heck super fast...as in terrible and now I'm here.  The 44's were hitting 3-4' away from a 4x4' target at 100.  The 45's were all over between 7"-1.5' at 100.   

So open to suggestions to try. 
thanks

Offline reelamin

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Re: New guy with a bunch of questions!
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2017, 05:00:03 PM »
I had some great input from Sabotloader.   Finally a break from work and I spent 4hrs on the range today.  I must admit it was the best overall range day so far for me.   I was super happy with the results compared to previously.  I feel I have a ways to go, but I am so much more pleased with the results.  I will be ordering some of those Lehigh bullets to TE more.   They were accurate enough I need to shoot more of them in different powder/sabot configurations.  Another great thing for me was I was not thinking cost every time I pulled the trigger compared to using the BH209.    So far the Barnes TMZ shoots the best and has not gone outside of 2.5"

The Teflon tape on Breech plug and tightening it down.  AMAZING!!!   I did not break it loose like I was going to every 10....I just shot the crap out of it....I would guess with all the Velocity, practice load, and hunting load development....easily shot it 60+ times.  It was so built up around the plug I had to pick and soak with 50/50 Ballistol to get the build up out to get the socket on it. Came out like it had not been shot....100 times better than grease!!

So here is what I ended up with.  Using T7-3F and CCI Mag Caps for everything and 3 shot groups at 100 using 5x scope  Windex patch after every group.  Please offer up any input you think may help.



Velocity 300gr:  100gr/1560fps     110gr/1760fps     120gr/1902fps    130gr/1958    140gr/2085fps     150gr/2065fps     160gr/2140fps

Practice:  250gr Badman HC .452    I shot these a lot with different powder charges up to 130 and accuracy was the same....trying to get them to group smaller....no luck at all....they just shot all over the place. 
100gr Load  Harvester/13"    HPH24/9"   HPH12/12"

Practice .458/300gr Sierra Pistol
120 gr Load  HPH24  shot two groups  4" average.  Best was 3.5" with 2 into .5"

Barnes TMZ 290 Yellow Sabot
120gr  2.5"   
150gr  2.5"

Barnes MZ 300 Black Sabot
120gr  3"

Barnes 290 TEZ
120gr 3"

Traditions 300 Smack Down Yellow Sabot
120 gr  7"  2 into 2"   Only had 3 to try.

Lehigh 458/305
120gr  HPH Orange 8"

Lehigh 458/305 MZ
120gr  HPH 24  13"  2 into 4"
120gr  HPH Orange  2.5"  2 into 1"

Lehigh 265/.452
120gr  HPH24  4.5"

Offline MadMooner

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Re: New guy with a bunch of questions!
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2017, 11:47:00 AM »
Thanks for the advice all. I picked up a pound of T7 FFFG and some RWS 1081 caps. Have a measure, peep, and some Barnes MZ's coming in the mail!

Going to order some of those cast bullets and sabots to play with as well. Just have to figure out which sabot?

Welcome reelamin - Post anything ya like on this thread. I'll post how my efforts turn out!

you might take a hard look at these also



https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/bullets/products/452-controlled-fracturing-muzzleloader-265gr-bullet?variant=28146206856

This bullet is the one that I use for elk - it is a little much for a deer but it works there also...

https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/bullets/products/458-controlled-fracturing-305gr-bullet?variant=1073755480



Both of these might fit your rifle better the Barnes may be really tight going down. The 305 is a 458 - 45-70 rifle bullet the 265 is a .452 and you can get several different thicknesses of sabot to change the loading pressure.  These are very accurate

This target was shot with the 265's but it was shot with a scope.  It still gives you and idea how accurate the 265 can be.



SL  - Was just looking at the 305 Lehigh. They call out a minimum twist of 1-20"? Does your rifle stabilize them? What distance?

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: New guy with a bunch of questions!
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2017, 12:09:44 PM »
Quote from: MadMooner

SL  - Was just looking at the 305 Lehigh. They call out a minimum twist of 1-20"? Does your rifle stabilize them? What distance?
[/quote]

They do list it as a 1-20 because of length and the fact that it is a 45-70 bullet.  But I have found it will shoot fine from a 1-28 if you shoot it with a hot load.  110 - 120 grains of powder either T7 or BH.

Also an important item is the bullet is held to tighter specs because it is a rifle bullet so the diameter is a little smaller than a corresponding .458 ML bullet.  In my case shooting the bullet from a Knight - I need to use a MMP HPH 24 sabot rather than the normal HPH 457/458 Orange sabot. The problem is in the large sabot the bullet can sometime loose grip with the sabot and not get the rotation it needs. In a HPH-24 the sabot gets a much tighter grip on the bullet and their is no slippage.

I have shot them to 200 yards at paper or physical targets.  The longest shot on an animal has been 170 yards - worked great.

Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline reelamin

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Re: New guy with a bunch of questions!
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2017, 10:56:13 PM »
So after getting some more info from Sabotloader I must admit my total ignorance to muzzle loaders.   I know modern firearms and have had pretty good luck making them shoot well.  I honestly just thought the muzzle loader would be easy as I had never heard of anyone ever talking accuracy or lack of it.  Pretty much everyone would just say they hit what they shot at.  So I started looking and my stock to action fit was absolutely terrible...as in APPALLING!  So, no question I needed to fix it...and thanks to some great internet info I decided to try JB Weld instead of the normal Accra Glass I have used.   Wow I have been an idiot not only in extra expense but so much harder to use then JB Weld.   I sanded (dremel) out the inside all the way for relief and drilled some anchor holes in the stock.  I was pretty impressed with the rigidity of the stock.  I used an old Aluminum arrow wrapped in masking tape and Vaseline to create the ram rod channel.  I also used Vaseline as a release agent on the action.  I smeared it on and then heat gunned it....I used a lot because I was worried...could have used a lot less as it released super easy.   It will have been 48hrs tomorrow so I'm really hoping it makes a difference.  The back of the receiver and forward about 4" are all perfectly bedded with full contact now.   I ordered my Lehigh bullets Sunday evening.....in my hand this morning!!   THAT IS AWESOME SERVICE!!!   Will post up how tomorrow turns out...hoping for some noticeable improvement.

Edit:  I have not forgotten about this....lots of OT at work and no decent blocks of time....I have not made it to the bench yet...maybe Friday unless work calls for more OT.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 08:22:08 PM by reelamin »

Offline reelamin

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Re: New guy with a bunch of questions!
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2017, 05:18:17 PM »
I spent 5hrs at the range today and shot 22 different hunting combination's not counting my practice loads.   Also tried some RWS Primers and Pryrodex 2F.   No question the bedding really helped make it shoot very consistent and helped my practice loads  x100.   Bedding the action changed my POI by about 12" directly lower.  I have learned a lot about muzzle loader accuracy and my particular rifle.    I don't think my rifle is a tack driver, but I think it is reasonably accurate.  Also, it is more than accurate enough for a 250yd shot with it's best loads.  The Lehigh's shot as well as everything, better than some at 120gr, but it opened up in the 140-150gr loads.  Burned over a pound of powder!   Man this thing is expensive...used up $100 worth of components and really not fully dialed.   

I have decided on a bullet to hunt with and will do some tweaking and adjusting as I go to see if I can get it better.  I am going to use the 290gr Barnes TMZ as it shoots  the best at the higher velocities and equal at lower.  The Barnes 300MZ is almost a perfect replacement.  I will have to find some kind of process for loading when hunting as they are a SOB to get started unless I wipe the muzzle with windex about 1" down.    I will keep trying things when I go to the range, but will be using my peep sight from here on out.  I found my rifle prefers to have a windex swab between shots.  It shoots consistent with no fliers.  If I shoot 3-4 without cleaning it usually will have a flier.   

My 45/250gr HC practice went from a 4' group to a 4" group....super happy with this.  Only a 100gr load but it is very consistent....fully within what I can live with for practice shooting.   The best part was it had almost the exact same POI as the heavier hunting loads.   Not enough to even have a hold adjustment to hit close to where sights will be set for the hunting load.   

Open to any suggestions or input anyone has as total newbie to Muzzle Loaders.  I will say if you ever use the Teflon Tape on your Breech Plug you will never go back to using grease.  So many shots and built up again where I could not fit the socket on it.   Soaked and cleaned to get socket on and it came right out...way easier than any grease I tried with easily 3 times the shots. 

I fouled with one shot then shot 3 shot groups with no windex swab.  Windex swabbed twice between groups.   Still using a scope set on 5X.
Lehigh 305/.458 
120gr HPH Orange  7"  2 into 1.25". 
120gr  HPH24   9"  2 into .5"

Lehigh 265/.452
120gr  HPH24  1.25"
150gr  HPH24  6" 2 into 2"

Barnes 290gr TMZ
120gr  2.5"

Barnes 300 MZ
120gr  2.75"
150gr  2"

Hornady 300/45 XTP
120gr  HPH24  3"
150gr  HPH24 3"

Swabbed Each Shot with windex.
Lehigh 305/.458
120gr  HPH24  1.5"
150gr  HPH24  3.5"

RWS1075
Lehigh 305/.458
120gr  HPH24    3"
140gr  HPH24   3"

Barnes 290 TMZ
140gr 1.5"

Thanks again for any help and I will have more help questions in the future.   I have until end of June to get it worked in...then it is Salmon season and very little shooting other than a practice session just to get trigger time. 
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 09:28:34 PM by reelamin »

Offline reelamin

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Re: New guy with a bunch of questions!
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2017, 04:54:02 PM »
I put my Williams FP sight on today.  Its hitting a little high, but only shooting practice loads for now.  I was shooting just about the same size groups as with the scope.  POI was very close to each other with 80,90, and 100gr of powder.

Does anyone use the larger aperture and or the low light one?  Daylight the stock size is good, but more worried about the low light sight picture.

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: New guy with a bunch of questions!
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2017, 05:00:59 PM »
I put my Williams FP sight on today.  Its hitting a little high, but only shooting practice loads for now.  I was shooting just about the same size groups as with the scope.  POI was very close to each other with 80,90, and 100gr of powder.

Does anyone use the larger aperture and or the low light one?  Daylight the stock size is good, but more worried about the low light sight picture.

For low light - I take the aperture out and use the FP as a Ghost ring sight  - works real well.  When the light improves I put the aperture back in...
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

 

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