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Author Topic: Killing Coyotes  (Read 1677 times)

Offline drysideshooter

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Killing Coyotes
« on: October 24, 2017, 10:56:18 AM »
I wanted to start a thread about killing coyotes, and doing it ethically.  Just to be really clear, I really enjoy coyote hunting.  I am on the water fishing, or hunting, a minimum of 5 days most weeks, and some season's it's 7 days a week for a while.  I live on acreage where I can shoot coyotes, and I have access to thousands of acres of private land.  I've killed more than 30 coyotes in the last year.  I have ZERO negative feelings about killing coyotes and believe there is a benefit to other species by doing so.  I do however believe they deserve the same respect as any animal when it comes to fast, ethical kills.  The fact they prey on other animals doesn't make a difference, that's nature.  It doesn't mean they don't deserve to be dispatched quickly.  I travel a fair amount to shoot various ground squirrels.  I endeavor to kill them quickly as well, and don't believe because they're small they suffer any less than a larger animal.  I don't think it's fair to quantify suffering by the beauty of the animal, the size of the animal, or if the animal is a predator or not. 

My typical coyote rifles are 22-250 and 223, though I have also killed quite a few with 308 and 30-06, and even a 340 Weatherby Mag.  I read in another thread that someone said if they even "nick" a coyote with their 180 grain bullet it dies.  That's plain stupidity.  There isn't enough energy transferred by a "nick" to kill a coyote.  I've shot a fair number with an 06 shooting 168 grain Barnes TTSX.  With a solid hit they die pretty much instantly, and a projectile with more energy can kill or incapacitate better than a lower energy rounds if it's a marginal hit.  With a bad hit they can also cause plenty of suffering and a slow death. 

I was raised to respect my quarry, and to make sure my skills and judgment are good enough to assure quick kills the majority of the time.  I'm somewhat saddened and disgusted by some of the attitudes displayed here in the forums.

Offline ThomMedic

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Re: Killing Coyotes
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2017, 04:56:08 PM »
Thank you

Offline Gringo31

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Re: Killing Coyotes
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2017, 11:55:34 AM »
I've never read something on this forum where guys were trying to wound, nick or not kill a coyote ethically. 


Don't think I have anyway....   :dunno:
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Offline Gringo31

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Re: Killing Coyotes
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2017, 01:38:07 PM »
I saw the other thread.  (now)

Not sure this is really a debate but yes, I do treat them a little differently.  I'll shoot at a running coyote and risk a poor hit where I wouldn't take that shot on a deer or elk.  I've lost deer before and it sucks real bad.  Fact is, speaking for myself, I don't have those same feelings for coyotes, pigeons, starlings, mice etc.  :chuckle:
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Offline Doublelunger

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Re: Killing Coyotes
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2017, 01:44:49 PM »
I saw the other thread.  (now)

Not sure this is really a debate but yes, I do treat them a little differently.  I'll shoot at a running coyote and risk a poor hit where I wouldn't take that shot on a deer or elk.  I've lost deer before and it sucks real bad.  Fact is, speaking for myself, I don't have those same feelings for coyotes, pigeons, starlings, mice etc.  :chuckle:

 :yeah: I don't try to make a habit out of wounding any animal even coyotes, but I'll take lower probablilty shots on coyotes than I would on big game and not lose as much sleep if I don't find them.

Offline drysideshooter

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Re: Killing Coyotes
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2017, 06:46:22 AM »
Sorry, went fishing and chukar hunting in the Hells Canyon area and was gone for a couple of days.

Some of the posts in the other thread have been removed. 

I'm curious as to why some look at wounding a coyote and it getting away differently than wounding something like a deer?  Is it because with the deer they also don't get the meat, or is it because a deer is a beautiful, gentle herbivore and the coyote is a canine predator?  In my mind, and maybe I'm in the minority, to cause any animal to suffer needlessly because I took a shot I probably shouldn't have is a bad thing.  I grew up and spent 33 years of my life in Alaska.  I've shot a lot of predators.  I've also shot moose and caribou.  To my way of thinking they all deserve quick, ethical kills. The fact that predators hunt, and kill other animals doesn't come into the equation.  It's nature, and it's how they survive.  Sure, a wolf or cougar taking down an Elk may look horrific to some, and the elk no doubt experiences a period of severe pain.  It's how predators survive, and I don't feel that it's a hunters place to somehow judge them and deem them worthy of any less respect than any other quarry. 

I've noticed for years with many folks there seems to be a direct correlation between the size of an animal and the perceived value of their life and suffering.  I think that's interesting, and I'm not sure I completely understand it.

Offline Gringo31

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Re: Killing Coyotes
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2017, 09:57:00 AM »
Quote
I'm curious as to why some look at wounding a coyote and it getting away differently than wounding something like a deer?

Because as you can see from the pics I just posted, for me it's personal.  I have livestock to protect, I value our natural resources, I have a kill em all attitude.  Winter time forces all living things in my neck of the woods into these smaller critical habitat areas....it is the choke point in my areas carrying capacity.  You'll find the deer, coyotes, pheasants, quail etc. all stacked up in these areas looking to survive.  If I can put a pounding on the coyotes in the winter, more animals (that I value) survive. 

I don't look at all animals the same.  Just don't.  I believe in conservation not preservation.  If in my quest to remove the predatory burden, I wound one.....that's the way it goes.  Ol' Mr. Yote doesn't exactly have feelings.  When he chases deer across the ice or whatever he does to survive.....he does it ruthlessly.  I don't blame him, just accept him for what he is, a tax on my natural resource profits.  I like to limit taxes  :tup:
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Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Killing Coyotes
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2017, 10:00:51 AM »
I saw the other thread.  (now)

Not sure this is really a debate but yes, I do treat them a little differently.  I'll shoot at a running coyote and risk a poor hit where I wouldn't take that shot on a deer or elk.  I've lost deer before and it sucks real bad.  Fact is, speaking for myself, I don't have those same feelings for coyotes, pigeons, starlings, mice etc.  :chuckle:

 :yeah: Too many predators in WA. I'll take a risky shot on a coyote I wouldn't otherwise risk.
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Offline Gringo31

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Re: Killing Coyotes
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2017, 10:03:24 AM »
Quote
I've noticed for years with many folks there seems to be a direct correlation between the size of an animal and the perceived value of their life and suffering.  I think that's interesting, and I'm not sure I completely understand it.

Just for discussion's sake.  I would venture to guess you don't go to the bug zapper and inspect that some of the flies don't just have a burnt wing, alive but unable to survive.  I'd guess you've used decon for mice, sticky traps or even fly strips. 

Don't mistake my statement to assume that I intend to wound or cause suffering.  That's not the case AT ALL.  I probably shoot around 35-70 coyotes a winter.  I've killed 4 this week.  I've learned to aim on the shoulder vs. behind so they never take a step.  But like I said, speaking for me, I feel terrible if I loose a duck or even a dove.  If I lose a coyote?  Yeah, well......it happens and it doesn't bother me.  He's either not long for the world (my intent anyway) or I'll get him next time.
We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.
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Offline jjaba

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Re: Killing Coyotes
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2017, 10:39:28 AM »
Please keep photos in good taste.  Thank you.
What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal. -Albert Pike

Offline drysideshooter

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Re: Killing Coyotes
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2017, 01:18:13 PM »
One of my best friends is a cattleman, he has thousands of head of cattle in several states.  He has seen coyotes eating half born calves while the cow is of course freaking out. He has lost animals to cougar.  He tries to eradicate all of the predators he can because it's also his livelihood that is affected.  He know that predators do what they do to survive.  Cattle graze, predators hunt.  He still believes, strongly, that the predators he kills deserve to die quickly.  He won't pass up an opportunity to kill one, but I know for a fact that when he wounds one he dispatches it quickly if he can, or tries to locate it.  Honestly, if he felt any other way we obviously wouldn't be friends. I'm still really surprised at the attitudes of so many folks.  Just because an animal doing what they do naturally effects you doesn't mean it's okay if they suffer. Not in my mind anyway. I know nobody is advocating torturing animals like coyotes, but some of the attitudes about it being okay if they're caused do suffer is a bit shocking.


Offline YoungFowler

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Re: Killing Coyotes
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2017, 01:30:22 PM »
Nobody said that predators should suffer,  (im fairly certain most people would rather a quick kill) they just said that they wouldn't feel the same as if it was a deer or something.


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Re: Killing Coyotes
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2017, 02:00:24 PM »
Potential problem I see concerning the really greusome pictures, and, to be honest, potentially any pictues I am sad to say, is that all these posts and pictures are searchable by anyone. 

Thinking back to the campaign to ban hounds and baiting, I would think it fair to say that none of those hunters who posted videos on youtube ever thought those videos would ever be used against them to help take hound hunting and baiting away.

We all have seen examples of how the anti's know they can't win an outright victory, so they settle for piecemeal victories, example bobcat trapping in California a couple years ago.

I am not saying never post anything, but maybe a little forethought in choice of images or words used, because there is always a chance they will come back in a negative way... just my  :twocents:

Some will agree, some will no doubt say I am being too sensitive, we all know the saying about opinions...but doesn't change the effectivness those youtube videos had on voters.



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Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Killing Coyotes
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2017, 02:20:25 PM »
One of my best friends is a cattleman, he has thousands of head of cattle in several states.  He has seen coyotes eating half born calves while the cow is of course freaking out. He has lost animals to cougar.  He tries to eradicate all of the predators he can because it's also his livelihood that is affected.  He know that predators do what they do to survive.  Cattle graze, predators hunt.  He still believes, strongly, that the predators he kills deserve to die quickly.  He won't pass up an opportunity to kill one, but I know for a fact that when he wounds one he dispatches it quickly if he can, or tries to locate it.  Honestly, if he felt any other way we obviously wouldn't be friends. I'm still really surprised at the attitudes of so many folks.  Just because an animal doing what they do naturally effects you doesn't mean it's okay if they suffer. Not in my mind anyway. I know nobody is advocating torturing animals like coyotes, but some of the attitudes about it being okay if they're caused do suffer is a bit shocking.

We're not saying anything different from your cattleman friend. I'm not going to stand there and watch as they flop around and no one else is saying that either. None of us have said they'd like to see or would allow them to suffer. Not sure where you think you're going with this.  :dunno:
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Offline drysideshooter

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Re: Killing Coyotes
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2017, 02:26:15 PM »
One of my best friends is a cattleman, he has thousands of head of cattle in several states.  He has seen coyotes eating half born calves while the cow is of course freaking out. He has lost animals to cougar.  He tries to eradicate all of the predators he can because it's also his livelihood that is affected.  He know that predators do what they do to survive.  Cattle graze, predators hunt.  He still believes, strongly, that the predators he kills deserve to die quickly.  He won't pass up an opportunity to kill one, but I know for a fact that when he wounds one he dispatches it quickly if he can, or tries to locate it.  Honestly, if he felt any other way we obviously wouldn't be friends. I'm still really surprised at the attitudes of so many folks.  Just because an animal doing what they do naturally effects you doesn't mean it's okay if they suffer. Not in my mind anyway. I know nobody is advocating torturing animals like coyotes, but some of the attitudes about it being okay if they're caused do suffer is a bit shocking.

We're not saying anything different from your cattleman friend. I'm not going to stand there and watch as they flop around and no one else is saying that either. None of us have said they'd like to see or would allow them to suffer. Not sure where you think you're going with this.  :dunno:

Not really going anywhere.  Folks have said they will take a more questionable shot on a coyote than a deer or elk or other animal they have personally different feelings about.  Not saying it's right or wrong, just interesting how most of us obviously place different values on different forms of life. I'm wondering how many others of them have heard a man, especially a friend, die?  Have they ever held someone as they take their last breath, and long enough for their muscles to relax as their bowels and bladder empty? Have they heard the screams, even of an enemy, after they've been shot?  I can promise that certain life experiences can change the way folks feel about any type of suffering, and everyone has had a different journey to get to where they are, and have differing reasons for why they feel the way they do.

Offline KFhunter

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Re: Killing Coyotes
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2017, 02:32:55 PM »
Sorry, went fishing and chukar hunting in the Hells Canyon area and was gone for a couple of days.

Some of the posts in the other thread have been removed. 

I'm curious as to why some look at wounding a coyote and it getting away differently than wounding something like a deer?  Is it because with the deer they also don't get the meat, or is it because a deer is a beautiful, gentle herbivore and the coyote is a canine predator?  In my mind, and maybe I'm in the minority, to cause any animal to suffer needlessly because I took a shot I probably shouldn't have is a bad thing.  I grew up and spent 33 years of my life in Alaska.  I've shot a lot of predators.  I've also shot moose and caribou.  To my way of thinking they all deserve quick, ethical kills. The fact that predators hunt, and kill other animals doesn't come into the equation.  It's nature, and it's how they survive.  Sure, a wolf or cougar taking down an Elk may look horrific to some, and the elk no doubt experiences a period of severe pain.  It's how predators survive, and I don't feel that it's a hunters place to somehow judge them and deem them worthy of any less respect than any other quarry. 

I've noticed for years with many folks there seems to be a direct correlation between the size of an animal and the perceived value of their life and suffering.  I think that's interesting, and I'm not sure I completely understand it.

I'm like gringo, I'll take a shot at a coyote that I wouldn't ever take on a deer.  I'll shot a coyote on the run, shoot at a coyote way beyond the range I'd shoot a deer, I'll even guesstimate where I should hold and send a hailmary shot on a coyote just hoping to "get a piece of him", I'd never do so with a deer/elk or other valued game animal where every shot is precisely placed.

Do I want the coyote to suffer?  no, I don't humanize them in that regard.  In order to hate something enough to want it to suffer you have to humanize or anthropomorphize it to some degree which I don't do.  coyotes are simply vermin to me, vermin that are over populated and cut into the population of valued game animals and worse depredate livestock. 

If I see a coyote down and it's tail spinning circles I'll go finish it off right away.

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Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Killing Coyotes
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2017, 03:35:14 PM »
One of my best friends is a cattleman, he has thousands of head of cattle in several states.  He has seen coyotes eating half born calves while the cow is of course freaking out. He has lost animals to cougar.  He tries to eradicate all of the predators he can because it's also his livelihood that is affected.  He know that predators do what they do to survive.  Cattle graze, predators hunt.  He still believes, strongly, that the predators he kills deserve to die quickly.  He won't pass up an opportunity to kill one, but I know for a fact that when he wounds one he dispatches it quickly if he can, or tries to locate it.  Honestly, if he felt any other way we obviously wouldn't be friends. I'm still really surprised at the attitudes of so many folks.  Just because an animal doing what they do naturally effects you doesn't mean it's okay if they suffer. Not in my mind anyway. I know nobody is advocating torturing animals like coyotes, but some of the attitudes about it being okay if they're caused do suffer is a bit shocking.

We're not saying anything different from your cattleman friend. I'm not going to stand there and watch as they flop around and no one else is saying that either. None of us have said they'd like to see or would allow them to suffer. Not sure where you think you're going with this.  :dunno:

Not really going anywhere.  Folks have said they will take a more questionable shot on a coyote than a deer or elk or other animal they have personally different feelings about.  Not saying it's right or wrong, just interesting how most of us obviously place different values on different forms of life. I'm wondering how many others of them have heard a man, especially a friend, die?  Have they ever held someone as they take their last breath, and long enough for their muscles to relax as their bowels and bladder empty? Have they heard the screams, even of an enemy, after they've been shot?  I can promise that certain life experiences can change the way folks feel about any type of suffering, and everyone has had a different journey to get to where they are, and have differing reasons for why they feel the way they do.
I've never been in combat but as a medic, I've held the hands of a few as they took their last breath. That doesn't change the fact that killing coyotes saves lives and that's why I'd take a running shot at a coyote and not at an elk or deer. If I didn't kill it with the first shot, I would shortly thereafter. I don't want to see animals suffer either. You get exactly what I'm saying. Saying any more is redundant. Thanks for the discussion.
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Offline Gringo31

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Re: Killing Coyotes
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2017, 04:23:33 PM »
I'm a little lost on how pics of a cow a group of coyotes killed is in poor taste.  It's what we try to prevent???

Has nothing to do with "anti's"

Ok

Gringo out


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Offline Blacktail Sniper

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Re: Killing Coyotes
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2017, 05:14:32 PM »
I'm a little lost on how pics of a cow a group of coyotes killed is in poor taste.  It's what we try to prevent???

Has nothing to do with "anti's"

Ok

Gringo out


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Nothing to do with those pictures, it was in regards to the post about keeping the pictures in "Good taste," and hopefully giving some perspective for future consideration.

Sorry if you thought it was about those particular pictures, it was not in any way related to them.  I agree, there needs to more like them to show exactly why hunting is a necessary and needed tool.

EDIT: Just to be perfectly clear, so hopefully not to get any other backs up, I was talking about dead animals like coyotes and such, and statements such as not caring if they suffer, not as important as a deer, etc.  Again, just General zation, not calling any particular person out!!

But to think there is no risk from the anti's grabbing onto things like that is foolish, again, refer back to the commercials with the youtube videos of hounds with bears and cats treed during the campagian to ban hounds and baiting.

Believe it or not, like it or not, there is real possibility that things like that could be used against hunting on many levels. 

Will it stop it? I don't know, probably not, but why freely give them things that makes us look bad? 

Show the chewed up and uneatten calf, then show the dead coyote in a manner that looks presentable to someone who may never have seen such things, because that is the person who will ultimatly be deciding what happens when it comes time to vote. 

And again, make no mistake, they are and will use the ballot method simply because it is a game of numbers...way more non-hunters (both anti and possibly netrual, but uninformed) than hunters when it is time to vote.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 05:33:54 PM by Blacktail Sniper »
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Offline JakeLand

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Re: Killing Coyotes
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2017, 09:47:31 PM »
You speak with any Game warden and they will stress on you to shoot every coyote you see . I personally will take every opportunity to shoot every yote I see and if it's a bad shot which I never intend but if it does happen I won't lose no sleep over it . My only  :twocents:

Offline ELKBURGER

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Re: Killing Coyotes
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2017, 06:24:01 AM »
You speak with any Game warden and they will stress on you to shoot every coyote you see . I personally will take every opportunity to shoot every yote I see and if it's a bad shot which I never intend but if it does happen I won't lose no sleep over it . My only  :twocents:
Washington obviously has an issue with predators. Coyotes are a yearound, unlimited, resource. There is no weapon or baiting restriction. They are prolific as hell, too. But respecting them as Gods creation important. Intentionally wounding for thrill is criminal.

Offline CAMPMEAT

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Re: Killing Coyotes
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2017, 06:55:33 AM »
Coyotes aren't ethical.....
I could care less about what anybody says..............

Offline Gringo31

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Re: Killing Coyotes
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2017, 07:20:59 AM »
Quote
Intentionally wounding for thrill is criminal.

Talk about getting me wound up...  No one intentionally wounds coyotes.  No one intentionally wounds for thrill.


What's your point and why even say it?


Is it possible that someone out there does?  I suppose.  Do little kids pull wings off of house flies to see what happens?  Probably.  NOT THE POINT.
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Offline ELKBURGER

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Re: Killing Coyotes
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2017, 01:20:35 PM »
Quote
Intentionally wounding for thrill is criminal.

Talk about getting me wound up...  No one intentionally wounds coyotes.  No one intentionally wounds for thrill.


What's your point and why even say it?


Is it possible that someone out there does?  I suppose.  Do little kids pull wings off of house flies to see what happens?  Probably.  NOT THE POINT.
I am just reiterating everyones stance. Not wound up.... Not accusing anyone....

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Re: Killing Coyotes
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2017, 12:37:05 PM »
killing coyotes is more utilitarian for me, if I lived in the burbs somewhere and just went out on weekends to hunt coyotes then I'd have a different perspective, but living with them, raising livestock, and keeping track of a resident deer herd, I have a far different perspective. I'm not out to "hunt" coyotes, I'm out to kill them any way I can, and I think that is the concept you're scorning with those of us who will be happy just getting a piece of one, if we can't outright kill it (which is far more preferable). 


truth is we have far too many coyotes, I used to have 50 to 100 deer in my field every night back in the 90's (I used to trap coyotes with leg holds) but now I've only got a few resident does who are lucky to raise a fawn.  This year I have zero fawns in the resident herd of deer and only about 4 does left.   I don't even fence off my hay pile anymore, they get their fill each night.

4 does and a nice buck isn't a lot of hay anyways.   They have their choice of horse grass hay or premium alfalfa they don't touch the horse hay  :chuckle:
"Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance." -George Bernard.

 

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