collapse

Author Topic: King county gun confiscation DV  (Read 1455 times)

Offline Special T

  • Truth the new Hate Speech.
  • Washington For Wildlife
  • Trade Count: (+11)
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2009
  • Posts: 16862
  • Location: Skagit Valley
  • Wake me when you need me.
    • Silver Arrow Bowmen
King county gun confiscation DV
« on: November 14, 2017, 12:38:56 PM »
"A court order does not always a domestic abuser make, despite what King 5 wants its viewers to believe. We’re supposed to have due process, requiring a trial, conviction and sentencing before penalties are imposed.

In many cases, we’ve seen restraining orders and firearm prohibitions based on considerably less than “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard. It’s not like motives and incentives don’t exist, including revenge, or getting an upper hand in divorce settlements or custody proceedings.  And in many cases, those unfairly caught up in such orders lack the wherewithal to defend the rights they’re being deprived of.



https://www.ammoland.com/2017/11/planned-king-county-gun-confiscations-foreshadow-larger-wider-plans/#axzz4yRMVmCq0

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

The Truth is like Poetry, and most people hate Poetry

Offline Tinmaniac

  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hunter
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2017
  • Posts: 126
  • Location: Wetside
Re: King county gun confiscation DV
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2017, 02:49:53 PM »
Makes perfect sense.Too many people getting shot before the abuser goes to court.A piece of paper won't stop a bullet.

Offline pianoman9701

  • Mushroom Man
  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Legend
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 25537
  • Location: Vancouver USA
  • NRA Life, MH, WFW, CCRKBA, NAGR, RMEF, WSB
Re: King county gun confiscation DV
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2017, 09:21:14 AM »
I know people who've been deprived of due process and were unjustly relieved of their firearms. One, whose wife did it just days prior to hunting season. While it's true that charges can be filed against people who falsely accuse, they're rarely levied. Due process, as outlined in the 5th Amendment to our beloved Constitution, is specifically there so that citizens can't be penalized or punished without a jury trial. In the case of domestic abuse, the accuser is assumed truthful and the accused, guilty until proven innocent until court is held.  This is supposedly so because the courts are backed up. The fact that courts are unable to hear these cases immediately should not be reason for the government to ignore our rights. The Forefathers were quite clear that the rights of good people should not be trodden upon because of the acts of bad people. I've seen no attempt by any state government to give domestic abuse claims a speedy appearance before a magistrate to not only protect the alleged victim, but the accused before stripping away his/her rights. The answer is improving the court system to allow these cases to go to the head of the line, or even to have a dedicated court specifically tasked with determination of domestic abuse allegations. Stripping away rights isn't the answer. For some in our government, any excuse to deprive citizens of their 2nd Amendment rights is a good thing.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline Special T

  • Truth the new Hate Speech.
  • Washington For Wildlife
  • Trade Count: (+11)
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2009
  • Posts: 16862
  • Location: Skagit Valley
  • Wake me when you need me.
    • Silver Arrow Bowmen
Re: King county gun confiscation DV
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2017, 11:20:13 AM »
One of many reasons why choosing a good woman has the largest impact on a man's life... perhaps it is also the reason why men are limiting thier entanglements with women as well.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

The Truth is like Poetry, and most people hate Poetry

Offline Fl0und3rz

  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2010
  • Posts: 19985
  • Location: W. WA
Re: King county gun confiscation DV
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2017, 11:29:37 AM »
I know people who've been deprived of due process and were unjustly relieved of their firearms. One, whose wife did it just days prior to hunting season. While it's true that charges can be filed against people who falsely accuse, they're rarely levied. Due process, as outlined in the 5th Amendment to our beloved Constitution, is specifically there so that citizens can't be penalized or punished without a jury trial. In the case of domestic abuse, the accuser is assumed truthful and the accused, guilty until proven innocent until court is held.  This is supposedly so because the courts are backed up. The fact that courts are unable to hear these cases immediately should not be reason for the government to ignore our rights. The Forefathers were quite clear that the rights of good people should not be trodden upon because of the acts of bad people. I've seen no attempt by any state government to give domestic abuse claims a speedy appearance before a magistrate to not only protect the alleged victim, but the accused before stripping away his/her rights. The answer is improving the court system to allow these cases to go to the head of the line, or even to have a dedicated court specifically tasked with determination of domestic abuse allegations. Stripping away rights isn't the answer. For some in our government, any excuse to deprive citizens of their 2nd Amendment rights is a good thing.

It goes beyond that, even in the cases where there is proper notice and opportunity to be heard.  There is an innate, self-serving reluctance to disbelieve DV allegations and be that one judge/commissioner who was "responsible" for not disarming an abuser who then goes on to kill his/her victim. 

Offline Fl0und3rz

  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2010
  • Posts: 19985
  • Location: W. WA
Re: King county gun confiscation DV
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2017, 11:31:31 AM »
One of many reasons why choosing a good woman has the largest impact on a man's life... perhaps it is also the reason why men are limiting thier entanglements with women as well.


In tax terms, you get more activity that is subsidized and less that is taxed.  The court's predisposition against men in marriages acts as a tax, whereas a court's predisposition to favor women acts as a subsidy to abuse such processes.

Offline Special T

  • Truth the new Hate Speech.
  • Washington For Wildlife
  • Trade Count: (+11)
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2009
  • Posts: 16862
  • Location: Skagit Valley
  • Wake me when you need me.
    • Silver Arrow Bowmen
Re: King county gun confiscation DV
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2017, 11:33:47 AM »
Resulting in less marriage and lower birth rates...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

The Truth is like Poetry, and most people hate Poetry

Offline Tinmaniac

  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hunter
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2017
  • Posts: 126
  • Location: Wetside
Re: King county gun confiscation DV
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2017, 12:04:53 PM »
I bet the folks burying their loved ones in Texas wish more had been done to keep guns out of the hands of the DV offender that gunned them down in church.

Offline ctwiggs1

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Sourdough
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2009
  • Posts: 1981
Re: King county gun confiscation DV
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2017, 12:10:25 PM »
I bet the folks burying their loved ones in Texas wish more had been done to keep guns out of the hands of the DV offender that gunned them down in church.

Not relevant. At all.

He was given his due process and found guilty of crimes that both sides agree should warrant losing firearms rights.  He also was put in a mental health facility (and escaped from it) that would warrant losing his rights.  Law enforcement failed on this.  Not the laws of the land.

And that's assuming that the man who criminally bought a gun wouldn't have still bought a gun criminally under the table.

Offline pianoman9701

  • Mushroom Man
  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Legend
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 25537
  • Location: Vancouver USA
  • NRA Life, MH, WFW, CCRKBA, NAGR, RMEF, WSB
Re: King county gun confiscation DV
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2017, 12:17:04 PM »
I know people who've been deprived of due process and were unjustly relieved of their firearms. One, whose wife did it just days prior to hunting season. While it's true that charges can be filed against people who falsely accuse, they're rarely levied. Due process, as outlined in the 5th Amendment to our beloved Constitution, is specifically there so that citizens can't be penalized or punished without a jury trial. In the case of domestic abuse, the accuser is assumed truthful and the accused, guilty until proven innocent until court is held.  This is supposedly so because the courts are backed up. The fact that courts are unable to hear these cases immediately should not be reason for the government to ignore our rights. The Forefathers were quite clear that the rights of good people should not be trodden upon because of the acts of bad people. I've seen no attempt by any state government to give domestic abuse claims a speedy appearance before a magistrate to not only protect the alleged victim, but the accused before stripping away his/her rights. The answer is improving the court system to allow these cases to go to the head of the line, or even to have a dedicated court specifically tasked with determination of domestic abuse allegations. Stripping away rights isn't the answer. For some in our government, any excuse to deprive citizens of their 2nd Amendment rights is a good thing.

It goes beyond that, even in the cases where there is proper notice and opportunity to be heard.  There is an innate, self-serving reluctance to disbelieve DV allegations and be that one judge/commissioner who was "responsible" for not disarming an abuser who then goes on to kill his/her victim. 
There's not a lot one can do about bad due process.  :dunno: The best you can do is show up with the right attorney and the right evidence.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline pianoman9701

  • Mushroom Man
  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Legend
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 25537
  • Location: Vancouver USA
  • NRA Life, MH, WFW, CCRKBA, NAGR, RMEF, WSB
Re: King county gun confiscation DV
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2017, 12:22:14 PM »
I bet the folks burying their loved ones in Texas wish more had been done to keep guns out of the hands of the DV offender that gunned them down in church.

Do you even own firearms? So apparently you're ignorant about the facts in TX. This is a good opportunity for you to learn something. First,  he was able to get guns because the government didn't follow the laws already in place. He'd already been convicted of DV. Because he was discharged for spousal abuse and dishonorably so, had they sent the information into the NCIC, as is required, he'd never have been able to purchase guns. Does that mean he wouldn't have killed a bunch of people anyway? Of course not. He'd have mowed them down with a rental truck when church was let out, or blew them up with diesel and fertilizer, or gasoline.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline Special T

  • Truth the new Hate Speech.
  • Washington For Wildlife
  • Trade Count: (+11)
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2009
  • Posts: 16862
  • Location: Skagit Valley
  • Wake me when you need me.
    • Silver Arrow Bowmen
Re: King county gun confiscation DV
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2017, 12:45:55 PM »
I bet the folks burying their loved ones in Texas wish more had been done to keep guns out of the hands of the DV offender that gunned them down in church.
I bet they wish they were packing iron. This was rural Texas not some anti gun utopia...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
The Truth is like Poetry, and most people hate Poetry

Offline Fl0und3rz

  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2010
  • Posts: 19985
  • Location: W. WA
Re: King county gun confiscation DV
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2017, 12:50:52 PM »
I bet the folks burying their loved ones in Texas wish more had been done to keep guns out of the hands of the DV offender that gunned them down in church.

Not relevant. At all.

He was given his due process and found guilty of crimes that both sides agree should warrant losing firearms rights.  He also was put in a mental health facility (and escaped from it) that would warrant losing his rights.  Law enforcement failed on this.  Not the laws of the land.

And that's assuming that the man who criminally bought a gun wouldn't have still bought a gun criminally under the table.

Well said.

Offline Tinmaniac

  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hunter
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2017
  • Posts: 126
  • Location: Wetside
Re: King county gun confiscation DV
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2017, 03:25:03 PM »
Absolutely relevant as to what would happen in anti-gun utopia King County.Because of the strict gun laws in King County his information would have been sent to NCIS.If Texas requires a background check like Washington does he wouldn't be able to purchase a gun legally.What is irrelevant is if he would get a gun illegally,run people over or blow them up.My ownership of guns is irrelevant to the topic as well.There is a way to allow DV offenders to keep their guns while awaiting due process.Arrest them,charge them,get them in front of a judge with 72 hours,deny bail,make sure the don't waive their right to a speedy trial and they will have due process within 60 days.In other words if they don't want to surrender their guns keep them away from their guns.

Offline olyguy79

  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hunter
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2016
  • Posts: 134
  • Location: Thurston
Re: King county gun confiscation DV
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2017, 05:49:44 PM »
Due process, as outlined in the 5th Amendment to our beloved Constitution, is specifically there so that citizens can't be penalized or punished without a jury trial. In the case of domestic abuse, the accuser is assumed truthful and the accused, guilty until proven innocent until court is held.  This is supposedly so because the courts are backed up. The fact that courts are unable to hear these cases immediately should not be reason for the government to ignore our rights. The Forefathers were quite clear that the rights of good people should not be trodden upon because of the acts of bad people. I've seen no attempt by any state government to give domestic abuse claims a speedy appearance before a magistrate to not only protect the alleged victim, but the accused before stripping away his/her rights. The answer is improving the court system to allow these cases to go to the head of the line, or even to have a dedicated court specifically tasked with determination of domestic abuse allegations. Stripping away rights isn't the answer. For some in our government, any excuse to deprive citizens of their 2nd Amendment rights is a good thing.

Not trying to be a know it all. In the 1970s SCOTUS actually ruled the 5th Amendment provision regarding jury trials actually doesn't mandate the possibility for jury trials for all criminal cases, only serious crimes. They went on to say that "serious" crimes are those where the possible punishment is over 6 months in jail. Now many states still allow the possibility of a jury trial for those with possible punishment less than 6 months in jail, but they aren't required to do so under this ruling. If for example your charged with poaching a deer at Mt. Rainier it's a federal Class B Misdemeanor with a maximum of 6 months in jail which means no jury trial.

But to get what I really wanted to hit on.

I agree it's wrong the government takes guns and then says well your court date is in 6 months. But how are we supposed to fix it? You suggest making these cases at the front of the line. So if I'm scheduled for a DUI trial Monday morning at 9AM, but 20 guys were arrested over the weekend for DV does that mean my trial is dismissed? Or do I basically just have to wait until sometime where there's not a guy wanting to get his guns back?

Up until about 10 years ago in WA if you were cited with a criminal offense you received your court date on-scene, but with a growing population it caused the courts to be backlogged, especially after busy weekends. So 100 people would show up for their court date but only 75 cases were heard, well under WA law those 25 remaining cases were dismissed. That's why prosecutors now tell officers to no longer issue criminal court dates, simply send the report to the prosecutor and they'll actually schedule it properly.

The big problem is cities and more importantly counties do not properly fund the criminal justice system. There is not a county in this state that could not use an additional judge, some counties literally just have one District Court (infractions and misdemeanors) and Superior Court (felony) judge. Some counties even share superior court judges. It's crazy but as WA's population has grown, the amount of prosecutors and judges have actually decreased. I hate to compare us to California, but California funds their criminal justice system a whole lot better than WA does. Even smaller counties in CA have multiple court locations with several judges and a lot of prosecutors.

The fact of the matter is it will all come down to $.

Offline pianoman9701

  • Mushroom Man
  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Legend
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 25537
  • Location: Vancouver USA
  • NRA Life, MH, WFW, CCRKBA, NAGR, RMEF, WSB
Re: King county gun confiscation DV
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2017, 06:42:00 AM »
I'm not suggesting anything other than we have things backwards when it comes to citizens' rights and guns. It's ridiculous that there can't be a hearing in front of a judge before someone's Constitutional rights are trodden on. The system as it is was set up completely wrong for DV claims and forfeiture of constitutional rights under the 2A.

The other thing we have wrong in a great many states is the waiting period for gun purchases by people in fear for their own or their children's live with regards to DV and estranged partners. People whose lives are in danger can't get a firearm within a reasonable period of time for protection against someone who's threatened them. Several people, mostly women, have died waiting for the government's "permission" to exercise their constitutional right to bear arms. It's ridiculous.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline Fl0und3rz

  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2010
  • Posts: 19985
  • Location: W. WA
Re: King county gun confiscation DV
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2017, 06:49:29 AM »
Tehama shooter was out on bail for assault against a neighbor, who had a protection order against him.

Offline pianoman9701

  • Mushroom Man
  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Legend
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 25537
  • Location: Vancouver USA
  • NRA Life, MH, WFW, CCRKBA, NAGR, RMEF, WSB
Re: King county gun confiscation DV
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2017, 06:59:11 AM »
Absolutely relevant as to what would happen in anti-gun utopia King County.Because of the strict gun laws in King County his information would have been sent to NCIS.If Texas requires a background check like Washington does he wouldn't be able to purchase a gun legally.What is irrelevant is if he would get a gun illegally,run people over or blow them up.My ownership of guns is irrelevant to the topic as well.There is a way to allow DV offenders to keep their guns while awaiting due process.Arrest them,charge them,get them in front of a judge with 72 hours,deny bail,make sure the don't waive their right to a speedy trial and they will have due process within 60 days.In other words if they don't want to surrender their guns keep them away from their guns.

That's simply untrue. This isn't about where the crime happened; the state or county. He was tried in a military court. King Co. or any other county in the nation wouldn't have received the information unless the air force sent it to the FBI to have it entered into the NCIC, which they didn't. We have the laws. The government didn't abide by them. And incidentally, it's now coming out that all services have neglected to properly report felonies, dishonorable discharge, and DV cases to the FBI. We have a government which doesn't pay attention to it's own laws. So. by all means, let's write new ones.  :bash:

It's pretty obvious from the rest of your comments how you feel about gun ownership and gun rights. Thanks for playing.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline Fl0und3rz

  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2010
  • Posts: 19985
  • Location: W. WA
Re: King county gun confiscation DV
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2017, 07:07:14 AM »
Let's not forget that the TX shooting happened after the MPHS shooting happened under similar non-reporting conditions.  Obama had an opportunity to review such procedures and ensure there were not repeat non-reporting problems.  What happened?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 07:40:10 AM by Fl0und3rz »

Offline pianoman9701

  • Mushroom Man
  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Legend
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 25537
  • Location: Vancouver USA
  • NRA Life, MH, WFW, CCRKBA, NAGR, RMEF, WSB
Re: King county gun confiscation DV
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2017, 07:13:33 AM »
People who believe in gun control find facts irritating and tend to ignore them.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline ctwiggs1

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Sourdough
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2009
  • Posts: 1981
Re: King county gun confiscation DV
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2017, 07:13:39 AM »
Honestly tinman I don't think you want to listen to reason here.

Nobody wants mass shootings to happen.  Nobody wants wife beaters to have guns.  Nobody.  And guess what?  There are laws in place to make sure both of these things don't happen.  It's illegal to shoot people.  It's also illegal to own a gun if you're a convicted wife beater.  But when the people who are supposed to enforce those laws fail to, it makes it easier to get a gun and go shoot people.

The problem isn't legislation.  It's execution.  Remember civics?  Legislative, Executive, Judicial?

You're barking up the wrong tree but I don't think you even realize it.

Offline ctwiggs1

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Sourdough
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2009
  • Posts: 1981
Re: King county gun confiscation DV
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2017, 07:15:01 AM »
People who believe in gun control find facts irritating and tend to ignore them.

LOL I have to be honest, I would be just fine if bump stocks were banned.  And I don't mind that Obama put more money into the FBI to help enforce criminal background checks.  They're not extremely effective, but they have resulted in several arrests. 

I'd like to see more help for people who have wrongfully had their 2A rights taken though.

Offline Fl0und3rz

  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2010
  • Posts: 19985
  • Location: W. WA
Re: King county gun confiscation DV
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2017, 07:42:44 AM »
People who believe in gun control find facts irritating and tend to ignore them.

It's not gun control that they believe in, it is people control.  Shoddy, feel good laws and lax law enforcement against actual criminality are just tools to achieve that.

Offline Tinmaniac

  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hunter
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2017
  • Posts: 126
  • Location: Wetside
Re: King county gun confiscation DV
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2017, 09:14:44 AM »
The topic was King County and its evil laws regarding DV suspects.My point was,if you read correctly,that King County law MAY have helped prevent the shootings in Texas.Military court is not King County court.Marysville shooter was not DV offender nor did he buy his gun.He took it from his father who took it from his father.His father who should not have been able to buy the gun did so before mandatory background check.Blaming Obama is pointless.The war cry when he took office was he was going to take all of our guns.That didn't happen.I am not anti-gun.I just offer a different point of view.Without that different point of view you guys might as well shout at a mirror.

Offline ctwiggs1

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Sourdough
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2009
  • Posts: 1981
Re: King county gun confiscation DV
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2017, 09:24:45 AM »
The topic was King County and its evil laws regarding DV suspects.My point was,if you read correctly,that King County law MAY have helped prevent the shootings in Texas.Military court is not King County court.Marysville shooter was not DV offender nor did he buy his gun.He took it from his father who took it from his father.His father who should not have been able to buy the gun did so before mandatory background check.Blaming Obama is pointless.The war cry when he took office was he was going to take all of our guns.That didn't happen.I am not anti-gun.I just offer a different point of view.Without that different point of view you guys might as well shout at a mirror.

He lied on the background check and it wasn't caught like it was supposed to be.  The system failed.  Again.  In King County.  Using the same background checks you're talking about.  So there goes that argument. 

So I'm not sure what hypothetical you have come up with... But even if the father legally owned the gun, he could have legally given it to his son (if he was of age) without a check.  Mandatory background checks aren't required between family in King County or Washington state or under federal law. 

A criminal stole a gun and shot people.  He stole the gun from another criminal.  This is kind of like the streets of Chicago.  Look at the gun laws there... and guess what?  The criminals have the gall to just ignore them!  I know, crazy right?  They just straight up ignore those laws and steal guns from other criminals and then they USE THOSE GUNS to shoot people!  Isn't that weird??  You would think they would at least use low-capacity magazines and go through mandatory background checks.  Nope - they just ignore the law altogether as if it doesn't exist.

 

* Recent Topics

How is everyone's preparations going? by jennabug
[Today at 07:32:18 PM]


Misc. Hunting gear for sale by Dan-o
[Today at 07:31:28 PM]


Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies by jackelope
[Today at 07:31:09 PM]


Pocket knifes by JDHasty
[Today at 07:23:00 PM]


Sell: super xmas deals Smith and wesson MP 15 rifles NIB by Pinetar
[Today at 07:21:21 PM]


No antlerless for Colockum Archers next year? by Rainier10
[Today at 07:21:18 PM]


Better than drawing Quilomene.. by X-Force
[Today at 07:15:49 PM]


Late Swakane rifle tags by Rainier10
[Today at 07:15:10 PM]


Latest euro mount by h20hunter
[Today at 07:13:49 PM]


2017/18 Trappers Scoreboard by bear hunter
[Today at 07:12:45 PM]


Bear Hunter 2017/2018 Trapping Season by bear hunter
[Today at 07:11:02 PM]


Last day buck by X-Force
[Today at 07:05:58 PM]


Hunting clothes for sale-3 by elkslayer99
[Today at 07:04:56 PM]


Chewuch quality tag by X-Force
[Today at 07:03:40 PM]


Transportation Swap by gramps
[Today at 07:00:52 PM]


WTS 308 marlin express by h20hunter
[Today at 06:57:04 PM]


Rutted blacktail meat texture?? by ruttnbuck
[Today at 06:55:23 PM]


300 or 340 by jrebel
[Today at 06:54:02 PM]


Help with lady's bow purchase by Buckmark
[Today at 06:53:13 PM]


Hunting clothes for sale-2 by elkslayer99
[Today at 06:52:16 PM]