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Author Topic: Major wdfw overhaul  (Read 14746 times)

Offline KFhunter

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #195 on: November 21, 2017, 06:38:40 PM »
Unless someone has enough evidence to sue whomever allegedly planted them who cares?  Arguing how they got here is a distraction from what we should be doing now - managing them. 


I care nothing for the finger pointing.

Offline KFhunter

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #196 on: November 21, 2017, 06:40:50 PM »
Unhappy with the location or timing of meetings? Here is a thought.
F&W Commission meetings always extend into Saturday. They have open comment periods. You can comment on anything you wish. Does not have to be related to any of the other business of the Commission that day although it helps.
Make your case for meetings more friendly to the average guy. You'll have 3 minutes so don't go off on a tangent.
Can't attend? You can send in a written response as long as you want. Warning though, you better have some well thought out reasoning and short and concise will be read.
I doubt if one commenter or letter will make a difference but if they heard the same thing from a bunch of people I bet they will listen.
:yeah:
And many of those open comment periods have literally zero comments given.

For the written response, your correct, it better make sense. (No spelling/grammar issues or other falsehoods).
The numerous times I've worked in Oly one of the biggest issues is people complaining about non-state level issues. So if you send a letter that has spelling/grammar issues or it talks about non-state issues it isn't going to go anywhere. As an example, if you want to complain about waterfowl seasons for example, most likely it'll be a federal issue. Want to complain about a gate on USFS land, don't contact WDFW or DNR contact USFS. Etc.

I'll  just add this. We really need to get hound hunting back to control cougar but do you think it is really going to do much good to complain to the F&W Commission about that? It is out of their hands. Take that to the Legislature.
Now if you want to complain about the ban on using dogs on coyotes that is prime real estate to  talk to the Commission.
Anything to do with I-655 or I-713 is fodder for the Legislature. F&W Commissions hands are tied on these issues.

You are spot on regarding the fact that the legislature must be used to get hound hunting or trapping back. Unfortunately I don't see that happening. You also understand the process and I know you have had some successes and have offered what I would say is the best advice for trying to work with the Dept and/or the Commission. However, that does not lessen the fact that both the Commission and the Dept are almost anti-cougar hunting for the most part. They have reduced the cougar quota for boot hunters so severely at a time when we have the most robust cougar populations in modern times and possible ever in history. I will not give them a pass on the fact that they are contributing to the problem with their lack of managing cougars and wolves by boot hunting seasons which are perfectly legal for cougar statewide and for wolves in the eastern 1/3 of Washington. There are steps they could take to increase harvest on other predators as well, if they wanted to!


They could be very liberal with the hound permits, give them away like candy in areas where ungulates are being hit hardest.

Offline Blacktail Sniper

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #197 on: November 21, 2017, 07:37:33 PM »
Unless it is for public safety or timber damage or domestic livestock damage/killing they cannot under the current law...

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Offline bearpaw

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #198 on: November 21, 2017, 07:42:15 PM »
Unless it is for public safety or timber damage or domestic livestock damage/killing they cannot under the current law...

I think you are wrong, but I'm fine using those as examples!  :tup:
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Offline Blacktail Sniper

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #199 on: November 21, 2017, 07:45:11 PM »
Unless it is for public safety or timber damage or domestic livestock damage/killing they cannot under the current law...

I think you are wrong, but I'm fine using those as examples!  :tup:

Got it from here, unless there have been some changes....

http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.15.245


2(a) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed to prohibit the killing of black bear, cougar, bobcat, or lynx with the aid of a dog or dogs by employees or agents of county, state, or federal agencies while acting in their official capacities for the purpose of protecting livestock, domestic animals, private property, or the public safety. A dog or dogs may be used by the owner or tenant of real property consistent with a permit issued and conditioned by the director.

And I don't think this applies...at least not yet...as far as deer & elk:

(c) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed to prohibit the director from issuing a permit or memorandum of understanding to a public agency, university, or scientific or educational institution for the use of a dog or dogs for the killing of black bear, cougar, or bobcat, for the protection of a state and/or federally listed threatened or endangered species.

And I believe in order to get it to apply would entail the shutdown of hunting deer and elk as they would then be under the ESA protections.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 07:50:46 PM by Blacktail Sniper »
It is better to be consistently incorrect than inconsistently correct...

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Offline bearpaw

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #200 on: November 21, 2017, 08:12:48 PM »
We were told to shoot a woodpecker that was damaging our home, but that was a few years ago. I found this with google:  http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.36.030

RCW 77.36.030
Trapping or killing wildlife threatening human safety or causing property damage有imitations and conditions由ules.
(1) Subject to limitations and conditions established by the commission, the owner, the owner's immediate family member, the owner's documented employee, or a tenant of real property may trap, consistent with RCW 77.15.194, or kill wildlife that is threatening human safety or causing property damage on that property, without the licenses required under RCW 77.32.010 or authorization from the director under RCW 77.12.240.
(2) The commission shall establish the limitations and conditions of this section by rule. The rules must include:
(a) Appropriate protection for threatened or endangered species;
(b) Instances when verbal or written permission is required to kill wildlife;
(c) Species that may be killed under this section; and
(d) Requirements for the disposal of wildlife trapped or killed under this section.
(3) In establishing the limitations and conditions of this section, the commission shall take into consideration the recommendations of the Washington state wolf conservation and management plan.
Americans are systematically advocating, legislating, and voting away each others rights. Support all user groups & quit losing opportunity!

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Offline Humptulips

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #201 on: November 21, 2017, 08:23:05 PM »
Unhappy with the location or timing of meetings? Here is a thought.
F&W Commission meetings always extend into Saturday. They have open comment periods. You can comment on anything you wish. Does not have to be related to any of the other business of the Commission that day although it helps.
Make your case for meetings more friendly to the average guy. You'll have 3 minutes so don't go off on a tangent.
Can't attend? You can send in a written response as long as you want. Warning though, you better have some well thought out reasoning and short and concise will be read.
I doubt if one commenter or letter will make a difference but if they heard the same thing from a bunch of people I bet they will listen.
:yeah:
And many of those open comment periods have literally zero comments given.

For the written response, your correct, it better make sense. (No spelling/grammar issues or other falsehoods).
The numerous times I've worked in Oly one of the biggest issues is people complaining about non-state level issues. So if you send a letter that has spelling/grammar issues or it talks about non-state issues it isn't going to go anywhere. As an example, if you want to complain about waterfowl seasons for example, most likely it'll be a federal issue. Want to complain about a gate on USFS land, don't contact WDFW or DNR contact USFS. Etc.

I'll  just add this. We really need to get hound hunting back to control cougar but do you think it is really going to do much good to complain to the F&W Commission about that? It is out of their hands. Take that to the Legislature.
Now if you want to complain about the ban on using dogs on coyotes that is prime real estate to  talk to the Commission.
Anything to do with I-655 or I-713 is fodder for the Legislature. F&W Commissions hands are tied on these issues.

You are spot on regarding the fact that the legislature must be used to get hound hunting or trapping back. Unfortunately I don't see that happening. You also understand the process and I know you have had some successes and have offered what I would say is the best advice for trying to work with the Dept and/or the Commission. However, that does not lessen the fact that both the Commission and the Dept are almost anti-cougar hunting for the most part. They have reduced the cougar quota for boot hunters so severely at a time when we have the most robust cougar populations in modern times and possible ever in history. I will not give them a pass on the fact that they are contributing to the problem with their lack of managing cougars and wolves by boot hunting seasons which are perfectly legal for cougar statewide and for wolves in the eastern 1/3 of Washington. There are steps they could take to increase harvest on other predators as well, if they wanted to!

Dale,
Give the Commission a little credit. They tried to increase the cougar quotas in the NE and the Governor reversed their decision.
My question is why there has to be quotas at all. The restriction on methods inhibits the harvest enough without quotas. There are some areas without quotas so why have them anyplace?
Bruce Vandervort

Offline bearpaw

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #202 on: November 21, 2017, 08:29:28 PM »
Unhappy with the location or timing of meetings? Here is a thought.
F&W Commission meetings always extend into Saturday. They have open comment periods. You can comment on anything you wish. Does not have to be related to any of the other business of the Commission that day although it helps.
Make your case for meetings more friendly to the average guy. You'll have 3 minutes so don't go off on a tangent.
Can't attend? You can send in a written response as long as you want. Warning though, you better have some well thought out reasoning and short and concise will be read.
I doubt if one commenter or letter will make a difference but if they heard the same thing from a bunch of people I bet they will listen.
:yeah:
And many of those open comment periods have literally zero comments given.

For the written response, your correct, it better make sense. (No spelling/grammar issues or other falsehoods).
The numerous times I've worked in Oly one of the biggest issues is people complaining about non-state level issues. So if you send a letter that has spelling/grammar issues or it talks about non-state issues it isn't going to go anywhere. As an example, if you want to complain about waterfowl seasons for example, most likely it'll be a federal issue. Want to complain about a gate on USFS land, don't contact WDFW or DNR contact USFS. Etc.

I'll  just add this. We really need to get hound hunting back to control cougar but do you think it is really going to do much good to complain to the F&W Commission about that? It is out of their hands. Take that to the Legislature.
Now if you want to complain about the ban on using dogs on coyotes that is prime real estate to  talk to the Commission.
Anything to do with I-655 or I-713 is fodder for the Legislature. F&W Commissions hands are tied on these issues.

You are spot on regarding the fact that the legislature must be used to get hound hunting or trapping back. Unfortunately I don't see that happening. You also understand the process and I know you have had some successes and have offered what I would say is the best advice for trying to work with the Dept and/or the Commission. However, that does not lessen the fact that both the Commission and the Dept are almost anti-cougar hunting for the most part. They have reduced the cougar quota for boot hunters so severely at a time when we have the most robust cougar populations in modern times and possible ever in history. I will not give them a pass on the fact that they are contributing to the problem with their lack of managing cougars and wolves by boot hunting seasons which are perfectly legal for cougar statewide and for wolves in the eastern 1/3 of Washington. There are steps they could take to increase harvest on other predators as well, if they wanted to!

Dale,
Give the Commission a little credit. They tried to increase the cougar quotas in the NE and the Governor reversed their decision.
My question is why there has to be quotas at all. The restriction on methods inhibits the harvest enough without quotas. There are some areas without quotas so why have them anyplace?

You are right, the commission did try to increase the cougar quota and the governor rescinded their decision, I had forgot about that, I admit maybe I was a bit too harsh in my comments about the commission, my apologies to the commission regarding that issue. :tup:
Americans are systematically advocating, legislating, and voting away each others rights. Support all user groups & quit losing opportunity!

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Offline Humptulips

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #203 on: November 21, 2017, 08:43:25 PM »
We were told to shoot a woodpecker that was damaging our home, but that was a few years ago. I found this with google:  http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.36.030

RCW 77.36.030
Trapping or killing wildlife threatening human safety or causing property damage有imitations and conditions由ules.
(1) Subject to limitations and conditions established by the commission, the owner, the owner's immediate family member, the owner's documented employee, or a tenant of real property may trap, consistent with RCW 77.15.194, or kill wildlife that is threatening human safety or causing property damage on that property, without the licenses required under RCW 77.32.010 or authorization from the director under RCW 77.12.240.
(2) The commission shall establish the limitations and conditions of this section by rule. The rules must include:
(a) Appropriate protection for threatened or endangered species;
(b) Instances when verbal or written permission is required to kill wildlife;
(c) Species that may be killed under this section; and
(d) Requirements for the disposal of wildlife trapped or killed under this section.
(3) In establishing the limitations and conditions of this section, the commission shall take into consideration the recommendations of the Washington state wolf conservation and management plan.

Dale here is the WAC end of that:

WAC 220-440-060
Killing wildlife causing private property damage.
The fish and wildlife commission is authorized to classify wildlife as game, and/or as endangered species or protected wildlife, and/or as a predatory bird consistent with RCW 77.08.010 and 77.12.020. The commission is also authorized, pursuant to RCW 77.36.030, to establish the limitations and conditions on killing or trapping wildlife that is causing damage on private property. The department may authorize, pursuant to RCW 77.12.240 the killing of wildlife destroying or injuring property.
The conditions for killing wildlife vary, based primarily on the classification of the wildlife species, the imminent nature of the threat to damage private property, the type of private property damage, and the preventive and nonlethal methods employed by the person prior to the damage event. Additional conditions defined by the department may also be important, depending on individual situations. Killing wildlife to address private property damage is subject to all other state and federal laws including, but not limited to, Titles 77 RCW and 220 WAC.
(1) It is unlawful to kill protected wildlife or endangered species (as defined in RCW 77.08.010) unless authorized by commission rule or with a permit from the department, with the following additional requirements:
(a) Federally listed threatened or endangered species will require federal permits or federal authority, in addition to a state permit.
(b) All migratory birds are federally protected and may require a federal permit or federal authority, in addition to a state permit.
(2) Killing wildlife causing damage to a commercial crop or to livestock.
It is permissible to kill unclassified wildlife, predatory birds, and game animals that are in the act of damaging commercial crops or attacking livestock or other domestic animals, under the following conditions:
(a) Predatory birds (defined in RCW 77.08.010) and unclassified wildlife that are in the act of damaging commercial crops or attacking livestock or other domestic animals may be killed with the express permission of the crop, livestock, domestic animals, or property owner at any time on private property, to protect domestic animals, livestock, or commercial crops.
(b) If an owner has attempted nonlethal damage control techniques and acquires verbal or written approval from the department, they may kill an individual (one) deer or elk during the physical act of damaging commercial crops within a twelve-month period. The owner must notify the department within twenty-four hours of kill. The department will document animals harvested under this subsection and will ensure harvest is consistent with herd management objectives developed cooperatively with comanagers where available.
(c) Multiple deer or elk may be killed if they are in the act of damaging commercial crops if the owner, owner's immediate family member, agent of the owner, or owner's documented employee is issued damage prevention or kill permits and the owner has a valid, written damage prevention cooperative agreement with the department.
(d) An owner may kill an individual (one) black bear or cougar during the physical act of attacking livestock or domestic animals with or without an agreement or permit within a twelve-month period. The owner must notify the department within twenty-four hours of kill.
(3) Killing wildlife causing damage or killing wildlife to prevent private property damage.
(a) Predatory birds (as defined in RCW 77.08.010(39)), unclassified wildlife, and eastern gray squirrels may be killed by the owner of private property, owner's immediate family, agent of the owner, or the owner's documented employee with the express permission of the private real property owner at any time, to prevent private property damage on private real property.
(b) Subject to subsection (7) of this section, the following list of wildlife species may be killed by the owner of the property, owner's immediate family member, agent of the owner, owner's documented employee, or licensed hunters/trappers in a lawful manner with the express permission of the private real property owner, when causing damage to private property: Raccoon, fox, bobcat, beaver, muskrat, mink, river otter, weasel, hare, and cottontail rabbits.
(c) The department may make agreements with landowners to prevent private property damage by wildlife. The agreements may authorize permits to remove animal(s) to abate private property damage.
(d) Landowners are encouraged to allow general season hunting and trapping on their property to help minimize damage potential and concerns.
(4) Wildlife control operators may assist property owners under the conditions of their certification or permits to remove animals causing damage.
(5) Tribal members may assist property owners under the conditions of valid comanagement agreements between tribes and the department. Tribes must be in compliance with the agreements including, but not limited to, adhering to reporting requirements, possession, and harvest restrictions.
(6) Hunting licenses and/or associated tags are not required to kill wildlife under this section unless the killing is pursuant to subsections (2)(c) and (3)(b) of this section. Hunters and trappers participating in harvesting wildlife under this section must comply with provisions of each permit. Tribal members operating under subsection (5) of this section are required to meet tribal hunting license, tag, and permit requirements.
(7) Except as specifically provided in a permit from the department or a rule of the commission, people taking wildlife under this rule are subject to the laws and rules of the state.
Bruce Vandervort

Offline bearpaw

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #204 on: November 21, 2017, 08:48:23 PM »
Thank you Bruce  :tup:
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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #205 on: November 21, 2017, 08:57:09 PM »
We were told to shoot a woodpecker that was damaging our home, but that was a few years ago. I found this with google:  http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.36.030

RCW 77.36.030
Trapping or killing wildlife threatening human safety or causing property damage有imitations and conditions由ules.
(1) Subject to limitations and conditions established by the commission, the owner, the owner's immediate family member, the owner's documented employee, or a tenant of real property may trap, consistent with RCW 77.15.194, or kill wildlife that is threatening human safety or causing property damage on that property, without the licenses required under RCW 77.32.010 or authorization from the director under RCW 77.12.240.
(2) The commission shall establish the limitations and conditions of this section by rule. The rules must include:
(a) Appropriate protection for threatened or endangered species;
(b) Instances when verbal or written permission is required to kill wildlife;
(c) Species that may be killed under this section; and
(d) Requirements for the disposal of wildlife trapped or killed under this section.
(3) In establishing the limitations and conditions of this section, the commission shall take into consideration the recommendations of the Washington state wolf conservation and management plan.

And that makes perfect sense.  It was to prevent/stop damage to personal/private property.

I really don't see anything in any of these qouted that says it could authorize hound permits to kill predators that are killing non-threatened or non-endangered wildlife.

In other words, doing what predators do.

Maybe I am missing something though.... :dunno:
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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #206 on: November 21, 2017, 09:04:25 PM »
Well I doubt Wa has ever seen a down ward turn in game animals as this. At least I have never witnessed it in my lifetime.

I have seen lower whitetail numbers in the past in the NE and they slowly rebounded, but our mule deer have been on a 50 year decline, hunting seasons were too liberal for years and now NE mule deer are for the most part in a predator pit, I don't think their numbers will ever rebound due to all the predators eating them as fast as their small numbers can reproduce. Most of our mule deer population isn't even hunted, only bucks 3 point or better can be hunted, however there is native hunting in some areas and predators are taking a heavy toll every year everywhere, our mule deer numbers seem to be in inevitable decline in the NE.

I don't know enough about other parts of WA enough to comment intelligently, I'll leave that up to others.

Dale,
I would say ungulate levels are the worst I have ever seen now on the Peninsula. I literally go weeks at a time without seeing a deer and a large herd of elk now is a dozen.
This did not happen over night. It has been a long decline. I peg the start of the decline back when cougar were made a game animal(Remember that far back). It speeded up when  the Department started limited draws for cougar tags and accelerated more when I-655 passed.
I think we are now truly in a predator pit. Don't anybody give me the habitat line. There is enough feed here for 100 times the ungulates we have now. We haven't had a bad winter in decades.

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.- Sherlock Holmes.
Bruce Vandervort

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #207 on: November 22, 2017, 07:19:07 AM »
Unless someone has enough evidence to sue whomever allegedly planted them who cares?  Arguing how they got here is a distraction from what we should be doing now - managing them. 


I care nothing for the finger pointing.

Yeah, I noticed that with the LaVoy murder, don't look at the past, look at this shiny new apple over here.

As for the illegal releases by WDF&wolves it is true that they will never be held accountable, it is also a part of the wolf history in WA.

Now we look at the last 15 years and the actions of WDF&wolves, how they have drug out the wolf delisting, by refusing to confirm wolves, refusing to confirm wolf predation etc., and now they can predict when WA will be ready for delisting> 2020-2021< We know that ID, MT and Wyoming had enough wolves to delist in all three states in just 6-7 years.

We have watched the change each year, and I posted it on H-W from the time I came on this site, like Humptulips stated this didn't happen over night. 2010-2011 we followed wolf kills up and down the Methow Valley, we saw where wolves drove cougars off of their kills> it was about the same time that CNW said fitkin knew about the another wolf pack up the Twisp river, but that it was too spendy to document.

Remember when the wolves drove a bunch of elk off the cliffs down by Malaga seven or so years ago? I talk to a guy the other day who lives there, he said everyone living there knew it was wolves, like the Methow they have lost a few dogs to the wolves. WDFW tried to blame it on ATVs at first, he said in the end they had to admit that yes it was wolves. Did the public ever hear about it? Was there ever any confirmed wolves over it?


Then we get into cougars that kill just for the fun of it also, 2009 we had a cat come through our place and killed 7 of the year before fawns, never ate a one. Was it this year that WDFW was going to shut down cougar hunting during the modern rifle?

A few years back when folks in the Methow were killing several cougar on the Valley floor, most if not all were not wearing collars, not that the collars matter, but WDFW knew of 52 cougars at that time on the Valley floor that were wearing collars.

http://methownet.com/grist/features/cougar_sightings.html

So WA has an out of control wolf and cougar population, and now people are leaping to their feet trying to figure out what can be done?


There is no fix without predator control.

You have been played by WDF&wolves.




« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 10:18:29 PM by wolfbait »

Offline elkchaser54

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #208 on: November 22, 2017, 10:25:33 AM »
I find it crazy how much our state will protect PRIVATE property but when it comes to protecting our public property such as the ungulates, they do absolutely nothing.

Offline muleracks

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #209 on: November 22, 2017, 09:23:05 PM »
The time to have become politically active was about 40 years ago when the department's name was changed from Game Department to the WDFW.
We can't undo our lack of attention to that shift in mission.  Now all we can do is "give'm hell" and see if they if it has any effect.
 
I think mule deer have suffered from the whitetail invasion and habitat loss (winter range) far more than any increase in predators.

 

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