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Author Topic: Major wdfw overhaul  (Read 7505 times)

Offline bearpaw

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2017, 07:39:51 AM »
Another hard winter means more winter loss and a couple years longer to recover.

It's at times of low herd population that a predator pit can happen, seems like we have enough predators for that to maybe happen, time will tell.
Americans are systematically advocating, legislating, and voting away each others rights. Support all user groups & quit losing opportunity!

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Offline runamuk

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #51 on: November 16, 2017, 07:40:21 AM »
How many here do the hunting season surveys? How many report legitimate information? How many talk to the bios and land managers?

If you aren't doing that start there.

Every time I hear how people lie on there locations all I can think is they wonder why management is so messed up.  You are part of the problem if you play that way.
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Offline bobcat

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2017, 07:41:34 AM »
Quote
We also need to get all players involved and find a way to work with the tribes on the management of herds it does no good to put money time and effort into trying to benefit a species if not all user groups are on board. What would be the benefit of creating conservative opportunities on herds if some of the players continue to hunt it and take out numerous animals during the process then it's all for nothing.

This!  ^^^


In my mind this is the biggest issue in the state for deer and elk management. We could limit our harvest in some way, even more so than we already do, but it would only allow the tribes to take more animals. It's a really tough issue to even bring up because all that happens is some people just want to begin playing the race card. So, instead the problem is ignored by the WDFW and I doubt anything will ever be done to address it. This is a bigger issue than wolves will ever be.

Offline bearpaw

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2017, 07:46:59 AM »
Before the winter kill herds were building, a couple years ago deer herds were looking pretty good, I honestly think that preventing winter kill is the single biggest factor for maintaining abundant herds without severe fluctuation. The deer need something to eat in the winter, subdivisions have eaten up too much winter range.
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Offline wolfbait

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2017, 08:08:32 AM »
Before the winter kill herds were building, a couple years ago deer herds were looking pretty good, I honestly think that preventing winter kill is the single biggest factor for maintaining abundant herds without severe fluctuation. The deer need something to eat in the winter, subdivisions have eaten up too much winter range.

Personally I haven't seen the herds in the Methow coming back for several years now, actually each year we see less and this year looks terrible. According to WDFW biologist, predation is included in the winter kill. Here in the Methow etc. there seems to be plenty of deer feed for the amount of deer we have.

I think predation will end the deer migration, and the deer that will be left will be the ones that get protection from towns and rural homes.

Offline no.cen.wa

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2017, 08:15:53 AM »
This is the WDFW mandate by the Washington Legislature

The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) is dedicated to preserving, protecting and perpetuating the stateís fish and wildlife resources. The department operates under a dual mandate from the Washington Legislature to:

Protect and enhance fish and wildlife and their habitats.
**************************************************************
Provide sustainable, fish- and wildlife-related recreational and commercial opportunities.
***************************************************************
just thought I'd outline that one

Department policy is guided by the Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission composed of nine citizen members appointed by the Governor. Department operations are led by a Director and an Executive Management Team. The Director is appointed by the Fish and Wildlife Commission.

It's an uphill battle to change things and will take time, but well worth it. So many liberals on the west side (they carry the votes)we have our work cut out for us. Maybe we could film a pack of wolves taking down a calf, piece by piece with it's mother standing there watching.(this happened, rancher's heart sank, they could do nothing.
John G

Offline no.cen.wa

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2017, 08:23:59 AM »
Might as well know who is on the Group


Wolf Advisory Group (WAG) Members
Name Affiliation City

Bob Aegeter Sierra Club Bellingham
Shawn Cantrell Defenders of Wildlife Seattle
Tim Coleman Kettle Range Conservation Group Republic
Don Dashiell Stevens County Commissioner Colville
Tom Davis Washington Farm Bureau Olympia
Dave Duncan Washingtonians for Wildlife Conservation Ellensburg
Tom Erskine Hiker and photographer Camas
Jack Field Washington State Cattlemenís Association Ellensburg
Diane Gallegos Wolf Haven International Tenino
Molly Linville Independent cattle rancher Palisades
Nick Martinez Washington State Sheep Producers Moxee
Dan McKinley Mule Deer Foundation Spangle
Dan Paul Humane Society of the United States Seattle
Mark Pidgeon Hunters Heritage Council Bellevue
Lisa Stone Hunter Shelton
Paula Swedeen Conservation Northwest Olympia
Vacancy - -
Vacancy - -
*All WAG members were appointed to a membership term that runs through December 31,

Offline B4noon

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2017, 08:37:25 AM »
WDFW has to get back to the bread and butter of the agency and regain focus on FISH and GAME.  When they spend more time and effort chasing federal dollars due to the lack of Wildlife state dollars their emphasis is placed where the money is.  For years the legislature has given WDFW the directive to cut back on managment without cutting basic functions and recreational opportunity.  In trying to achieve this the legislature has cut back funding in hopes of pinching the coffers to a point managment postitions would be reduced.  WDFW response chase more federal contracts which come from threatened, endangered, and invasive species.  With every federal dollar they receive 32%is slated towards Administration and management fees thus retaining their cubicle in the big house.  There is merit in the management of these species and they need to have a place in a healthy ecosystem, however do we need government waste in multiple agencies conducting the same efforts on the same species.  Not only does WDFW manage oversee Pygmy rabbits,  the federal government have their own team as well as BLM and DNR.  We have multiple agencies focusing on the same effort instead of spreading our resources and creating focal points on small pictures rather then big, every agency wants the funding.  The legislature has to be convinced that WDFW has become to diverse and has to many pies to put their finger in.  Reign in the agency and bring it back to what it was created for to manage fish and game.  Let the other players in government worry about 3 toed red bellied salamanders have a collaborative relationship with those other agencies so that the habitat is suitable for all species,  but bring the focus and the mainstay of the department back to managing the game species.  Probably would result in WDFW attending alot less law hearings as well if their fingers aren't in the pie.  I think rather then try to be mediocre at alot of things they should try and be great at a few.  Although the offset of that is management in oly may have numbers reduced to the point of becoming a listed or endangered species themselves.  I wonder how bats with white-nose syndrome would fare in a uninhabited cubicle environment.

Offline JDHasty

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2017, 08:48:38 AM »
Maybe this is when we as hunters need to pack the meetings. Make them standing room only. Change should happen when hundreds show up to each meeting.

How about asking them to schedule meetinga for evenings so those working can attend.

I advocated for that since back between 1989 & 1992 when I was running SPORTCO's retail gun counter.  It is an outrage that meetings are held when the people paying the bills for this State are at work.   

Offline Southpole

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2017, 08:57:27 AM »
How do we, as hunters, go about making sure an employed biologist is ďunbiasedĒ and doesnít have an agenda. Do we all pitch in and send boneaddict to collage to get his biology degree so his opinion will be taken seriolouly? Like said before, as long as this state is ran by the Dsí, itís going to be an uphill battle. I agree with SpecialT, itís going to take all of us to ban together, in an organized sportsman club of your choosing, to get a bigger voice to represent our heritage. Too many of us, including myself, want to complain but wonít try to be part of the solution. Iíve gotten to the point where Iím totally turned off from hunting deer the past 5 years and have been solely focused on predator hunting, at least Iíll have a chance to shoot at something :rolleyes:
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Offline JDHasty

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #60 on: November 16, 2017, 09:00:19 AM »
We fought like hell to keep the Game Dept separate from the butterfly counters and bunny huggers back in the 1970's and 1980's because we had a premonition of what would happen to the interest of hunters and fishermen if their interests were made subservient to the interests of the progressive element that was increasing in stature and consolidating their political power in the State of Washington at the time. 


Offline JDHasty

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #61 on: November 16, 2017, 09:03:47 AM »
Getting rid of Dave Ware was a step in the right direction.  There are a few individuals in the bureaucracy who impress me as very solid, I have my fingers crossed that the stars will align and enough of them will assume leadership roles that positive things will happen. 

Offline Gringo31

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #62 on: November 16, 2017, 09:11:55 AM »
Lots of good comments on here.


Thank you Bigtex for your input.


When I read this, I can't help but think of the reason WFW (Washington for Wildlife) was started.  Granted, it has stalled due to normal reasons of people divided with their own interests.  Much of that can be time available to put towards it.  Fact is Hunters are a pain in the backside.  Few are capable of thinking big picture.   :twocents:
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Offline no.cen.wa

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #63 on: November 16, 2017, 09:13:00 AM »
WDFW has to get back to the bread and butter of the agency and regain focus on FISH and GAME.  When they spend more time and effort chasing federal dollars due to the lack of Wildlife state dollars their emphasis is placed where the money is.  For years the legislature has given WDFW the directive to cut back on managment without cutting basic functions and recreational opportunity.  In trying to achieve this the legislature has cut back funding in hopes of pinching the coffers to a point managment postitions would be reduced.  WDFW response chase more federal contracts which come from threatened, endangered, and invasive species.  With every federal dollar they receive 32%is slated towards Administration and management fees thus retaining their cubicle in the big house.  There is merit in the management of these species and they need to have a place in a healthy ecosystem, however do we need government waste in multiple agencies conducting the same efforts on the same species.  Not only does WDFW manage oversee Pygmy rabbits,  the federal government have their own team as well as BLM and DNR.  We have multiple agencies focusing on the same effort instead of spreading our resources and creating focal points on small pictures rather then big, every agency wants the funding.  The legislature has to be convinced that WDFW has become to diverse and has to many pies to put their finger in.  Reign in the agency and bring it back to what it was created for to manage fish and game.  Let the other players in government worry about 3 toed red bellied salamanders have a collaborative relationship with those other agencies so that the habitat is suitable for all species,  but bring the focus and the mainstay of the department back to managing the game species.  Probably would result in WDFW attending alot less law hearings as well if their fingers aren't in the pie.  I think rather then try to be mediocre at alot of things they should try and be great at a few.  Although the offset of that is management in oly may have numbers reduced to the point of becoming a listed or endangered species themselves.  I wonder how bats with white-nose syndrome would fare in a uninhabited cubicle environment.


Thanks B4noon for your thoughts, and solid thinking, yes I think the WDFW is pointed toward federal $, rather than what they were created for!
John G

Offline DOUBLELUNG

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #64 on: November 16, 2017, 09:16:34 AM »
I personally believe a big hit to their pocketbook is the only thing that will open their eyes. I would have no problem holding on to the $200 plus that I typically fork over for one year, if only I could convince about 10,000 other guys to do the same..
WDFW already has data on the large number of hunters who do not buy Washington hunting licenses.  About 10 years ago, 35% of hunters residing in Washington only hunted out of state.  I doubt that proportion has decreased. 
As long as we have the habitat, we can argue forever about who gets to kill what and when.  No habitat = no game.

Offline Special T

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #65 on: November 16, 2017, 09:22:00 AM »
Lots of good comments on here.


Thank you Bigtex for your input.


When I read this, I can't help but think of the reason WFW (Washington for Wildlife) was started.  Granted, it has stalled due to normal reasons of people divided with their own interests.  Much of that can be time available to put towards it.  Fact is Hunters are a pain in the backside.  Few are capable of thinking big picture.   :twocents:
I think WFW stalling as you've stated is proof of hunters independence and strong willed nature.  IMO that weakness of ours is what needs overcoming.

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Offline Grant4068

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #66 on: November 16, 2017, 09:24:12 AM »
Its like some of us have said, "something needs to be done" its hard to get things done going the political route in this state as phool said. Now, a boycott?...HMMMMMM?
Time for me to offend people.

Who do you think the commission will listen to more, a wildlife biologist or a group of redneck hunters (I'm one too) who can't put a paragraph together? Obviously it's the bio. When I see the things that are submitted during the season setting process I shake my head. Some of the suggestions don't even look like they're written in English. Us hunters go and complain and basically say "well hunting sucks and there's less deer" but we don't have actual data to back it up most of the time. So it's the word of a hunter vs a professional biologist, and I wonder why the commission goes with the biologist.

Fishing groups have biologists who work for them and go to bat for them in the reg changing process. Doesn't seem like the hunting side has that, or they're not very successful. Want things to change? Get facts, not just John Doe's opinion on what's going on in the hills.

Fisheries have a commercial harvest, which means an industry lobby, more money into management, and better tracking data.  It's more difficult to track big game numbers.  Big game also don't reproduce very quickly so any changes might take years to affect anything.  Also, Idaho deer populations are doing just fine, the ratio of public land to population is something Washington will never achieve. 

Offline Southpole

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #67 on: November 16, 2017, 09:26:09 AM »
So, most of us agree what the problems are, what does little joe shmo do about it. Apparently voting doesnít work (or not voting at all).
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Offline Gringo31

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #68 on: November 16, 2017, 09:27:42 AM »
Little Joe Shmo could do his part on predator hunting.

I do ;)
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Offline Mtnwalker

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #69 on: November 16, 2017, 09:39:52 AM »
Little Joe Shmo could do his part on predator hunting.

I do ;)

I will be putting extra effort into predator hunting this winter. Anything we can do to give the deer a little break can't hurt.

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #70 on: November 16, 2017, 09:43:21 AM »
Little Joe Shmo could do his part on predator hunting.

I do ;)
Like I have mentioned in my first post, that's all I focus on anymore.
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Offline bigmacc

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #71 on: November 16, 2017, 09:57:22 AM »
Its like some of us have said, "something needs to be done" its hard to get things done going the political route in this state as phool said. Now, a boycott?...HMMMMMM?
Time for me to offend people.

Who do you think the commission will listen to more, a wildlife biologist or a group of redneck hunters (I'm one too) who can't put a paragraph together? Obviously it's the bio. When I see the things that are submitted during the season setting process I shake my head. Some of the suggestions don't even look like they're written in English. Us hunters go and complain and basically say "well hunting sucks and there's less deer" but we don't have actual data to back it up most of the time. So it's the word of a hunter vs a professional biologist, and I wonder why the commission goes with the biologist.

Fishing groups have biologists who work for them and go to bat for them in the reg changing process. Doesn't seem like the hunting side has that, or they're not very successful. Want things to change? Get facts, not just John Doe's opinion on what's going on in the hills.

Well I will only speak for myself hear bigtex but my family celebrated our 100 year anniversary this year of hunting mule deer in the Methow, over those 100 years (and up until the Fish and Game Dept became the Fish and Wildlife Dept) many a Game warden, Biologist and various other folks that represented our Fish and Game visited our camp, had dinner with us and even visited with us at our homes and us at theirs. Over those years many of those folks sat with my Grandparents and Dad and picked their brains about migration routes,staging areas and so on. A lot of the gates that that are up now in different parts of the valley were discussed back in the 60,s and 70,s between my family and the Game dept. Many hours were spent in discussion about migrations and where gates would do the most good with increasing hunter numbers, encroachment, pressure et. etc. The herds were cared about by the Dept. and the Dept. cared about the hunters, now that they are Fish and Wildlife they have way to many irons in the fire, to many special interest groups to cater to and way to many egos and money on the table. I guess when they were the Fish and Game Dept, they actually listened to us "redneck hunters" also.

Bigmacc you just said it perfectly.

i will put myself out there for the potential lamb-basting that may ensue, I am one of the "professional wildlife biologists" i do not work for the State but my agency shares a lot of the same directives. i got into this field because i grew up hunting and wanted to be a force and voice of good for the sportsman.

i am in the middle of re-writing my office's wildlife and habitat management plan and i can tell you first hand that Bigmacc just about said it perfectly, aside from the money portion, a lot of our budgets have been cut pretty drastically, i dont know about wdfw as i dont work for them. but in this new modern era of wildlife management we have so many more stakeholders, initiatives, directives and interest groups to answer to. the old plan i was working under that has expired listed out 3 games species and 2 ESA species. i am now writing a plan that includes upwards of 100 species and their habitats, not a small order by any means.

flat out the era of managing solely for game is gone, its done and agencies are now looking at a holistic approach of ALL wildlife this is snakes and lizards, amphibians, game species, ESA species, little brown birds to eagles and species that no one really pays attention to like bats and butterflies.

we live in a changing time and we as hunters need to adapt to it. yes there are wolves and more wolves, hate to say it but theyre here to stay and will increase in both numbers and range. wildlife management paradigms are changing and game species are not always the main focus. i will say that the animals are out there, i spend over 200 days afield and see them out there. they are getting better at avoiding predators and that includes us.

now i do not agree with everything wdfw does or all of their management techniques. static management of the herds does not work. however, when you have an office of 2-3 biologists that are expected to manage 10s of thousands of acres theres only so much you can do in a given year, especially with the plethora of management directives and studies to conduct. something is going to get left by the way side.

so far ive seen everyone here talking about "what can we coerce wdfw into doing to benefit deer hunting". ive read over the threads and seen some good ideas and some not so good. but in reality we should be asking "what can we, the hunting population do to help" we have organization like the Mule Deer Foundation and other groups that have a sole mission of improving opportunities for deer hunting. why are we not thinking what we can do to help. we as hunters can offer a lot of help in the terms of man power for habitat improvement projects, my biggest limiting factor at work is not money or time but MAN POWER.

its an unpopular comparison but a very apt one, but have you ever wondered why the washington wolf reintroduction has been such a success? its because there are a ton of everyday members of the public that want it and they volunteer to help out. whether its with citizen science for monitoring or helping with translocation projects or etc. people are willing to donate their time and effort for a cause they believe in.

what we should be asking of ourselves as hunters is "how can we come together as a group and provide our time, knowledge,expertise and energy to help solve a concerning issue that we all care about?"

Well said uplandhunter870.....and thank you.

Offline Special T

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #72 on: November 16, 2017, 10:09:09 AM »
@uplandhunter870
I have no doubt that manpower is a huge issue so I have a couple of questions.
Why do we not see more calls to action from the WDFW and other agencies? If they are doing so they are Extreamly ineffective at getting thier message out.

The main experience most of on here have seen is the road blocks placed refurbishing Cherry valley and Stillwater units. I have visited and hunted both. Paul aka Happy Gilmore has documented his efforts to volunteer and Chronicled the beurocratic failures for something as simple as mowing and tilling the property.



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Offline Elkcollector82

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #73 on: November 16, 2017, 10:16:57 AM »

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Re: Major wdfw overhaul
« Reply #74 on: November 16, 2017, 10:18:38 AM »
@uplandhunter870
I have no doubt that manpower is a huge issue so I have a couple of questions.
Why do we not see more calls to action from the WDFW and other agencies? If they are doing so they are Extreamly ineffective at getting thier message out.

The main experience most of on here have seen is the road blocks placed refurbishing Cherry valley and Stillwater units. I have visited and hunted both. Paul aka Happy Gilmore has documented his efforts to volunteer and Chronicled the beurocratic failures for something as simple as mowing and tilling the property.



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That might be where the "ego" part enters as I said in my post :dunno:, when they were the Game Dept. they would at least listen, they would ask questions and actually spend time talking with hunters and sportsmen. I as well as a lot of you on here remember Game Dept. folks showing up in camp, sitting by the fire and spending an hour or so just chatting about the herd, hunting and even baseball :chuckle:. There were many times over in the Methow that my dad would drive us kids over during a bad winter, we would stop by the Game managers house, we would load about 20-30 bags of deer feed in the truck and they would send us to different spots where deer were holed up and we fed them, they were happy for the help offered. They treated us as folks who also loved and enjoyed the same animals that they loved and enjoyed. I remember looking through my binoculars one day and seeing a lone hunter walking up out of a hell hole heading towards a saddle, I kept looking and noticed he was the Game manager that we knew. I stopped in and talked with him a few days later and I said "theres some big bucks in that hole, did you see any?" He looked at me with a funny look and a laugh and said "there sure is, I have 2 more days off in a couple days so you guys need to stay at least a mile away from there" :chuckle: :chuckle:. We had a good laugh. There is a big difference between the Dept. of old and what we have now, as I said(IMHO) theres to many irons in the fire, to many special interests, to much money involved and to many egos, they don't want to here from a bunch of "redneck hunters", it doesn't matter what you may know, what your history is or what your "woods education" may be, they are smarter and they know better,  thats where the ego part comes in.  :twocents:
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 10:55:52 AM by bigmacc »

 

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