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Author Topic: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer  (Read 3777 times)

Offline DaveMonti

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2017, 11:52:01 AM »
Well, that about sums up the single idea approach.  Everyone has their ideas of what needs to be done.

How many of these ideas are supported by data?  As far as the "doe" question goes, how many doe (or antlerless) deer are taken each year in this state?  In each unit?  How do those number of "antlerless" compare to the total number of deer in the state or in the units where the antlerless deer are harvested?

I don't have these answers.  I do, however, know that any "solution" that actually works is supported by data and sound reasoning.  While stopping the harvest of antlerless deer may SEEM like an intuitive solution to the problem of low deer numbers, does the data support that?  Does someone want to pour effort into a perceived solution that may not be supported by data? 

Suppose there are 4000 deer in a unit, and each year, 50 antlerless deer are taken from that unit.  Say that 40 of those antlerless deer are female with the rest being young antlerless bucks.  Will saving 1% (40/4000) of the population each year is going to make a difference in deer numbers?  Of those 40 female deer you save, how many survive the winter, predators, vehicles?  If you assume that of the 4000 deer, 3000 of them are does (I have no idea if this is right) but in buck heavy harvest areas, I expect there are more bucks than does), you are saving 40 of 3000 female deer.  What is the impact of an additional 1.3% of the doe population on the herd for the next year?  5 years? 

I have no idea of these numbers are anywhere NEAR the truth.  I don't have a solution.  I don't even know if there is a real problem as I've not looked up deer population trends for the past 20 years.  I'm not "for" or "against" a ban on antlerless hunting.  My point is that everyone has a "solution", and those solutions tend to be based on perception and not data.  If you want to make an impact, present an argument to the governing body that has DATA associated with it, and real analysis that shows results.  If you do not, you OR the governing body has NO idea how impactful your solution is. 

Now, I understand that REAL DATA is hard to come by, and it takes work, and most people have no idea of where to get the data, and if they did, it would probably be somewhat difficult to gather and compile, so guess what?  It's too hard! to get the data.  It's much easier to go with perception, which is highly emotional. 

So on and on we go, people throwing out emotional based solutions that are as varied as the personalities on this forum and no solutions get implemented because there is no data supporting how the solution may change the status quo. 

I know this idea is going to be met with hostility.  Nobody want's to hear that their "perception" isn't necessarily valid, or enough "evidence" to base real changes on.  And nobody want's to be faced with the task of collecting the data, if it even exists.  So my observations will not go over well with anyone who has an emotional based "solution". 

Now, just remember, before you go on and tell me "Well, if you have all the answers, what does your data tell you?" 
I don't have the data.  I have not decided to wade into this mess.  I just spend most of my hunting time in other states.  I don't profess to have the solutions or the data or the desire to do any of this.  But if you are so motivated, take some advice and start with the data. 

Offline Sitka_Blacktail

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2017, 11:52:44 AM »
All this will acomplish is more deer for wolves and indians.  That's all. I think it needs to go to a draw system and the indians need to be shut down if you want to see herd growth.

No, it will also put more pressure on Whitetails and Blacktails.
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Offline huntnphool

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2017, 11:58:24 AM »
Another idea is odd/even for mule deer...example-if your wild ID number ends in a odd number then you can hunt that year, if its even you hunt the next year, at least you could hunt muleys every other year compared to a draw where your at the mercy of getting your name drawn :dunno: also if you have numerous people in your camp chances are good that at least a couple will have tags one year and the others will have tags the next so you can still have your traditional camps, just extra cooks and extra spotters each year :chuckle:....  just a thought that I,ve kicked around for awhile. And of coarse, no doe tags, special permit tags OR late quality tags in areas that mule deer herds are hurting or have been on the decline (THE METHOW FOR EXAMPLE)

 Where did you get that idea? :rolleyes:

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,86231.msg1080089.html#msg1080089
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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2017, 12:25:20 PM »
Another idea is odd/even for mule deer...example-if your wild ID number ends in a odd number then you can hunt that year, if its even you hunt the next year, at least you could hunt muleys every other year compared to a draw where your at the mercy of getting your name drawn :dunno: also if you have numerous people in your camp chances are good that at least a couple will have tags one year and the others will have tags the next so you can still have your traditional camps, just extra cooks and extra spotters each year :chuckle:....  just a thought that I,ve kicked around for awhile. And of coarse, no doe tags, special permit tags OR late quality tags in areas that mule deer herds are hurting or have been on the decline (THE METHOW FOR EXAMPLE)

 Where did you get that idea? :rolleyes:

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,86231.msg1080089.html#msg1080089

Great minds think alike :chuckle:, I figured if you weren't gonna jump on this thread then I,d throw it out here, its a great idea and I actually think it would work, ever since you brought it up I have thought about it a lot. I will admit though that my dad had a similar idea back in the 70,s when he was trying to convince some of the game guys in the Methow at the time to start gating roads or the herd would eventually be decimated, his idea was a system that had numbers 1 through 9 that all hunters were assigned and would stay with them for life, it would cost 100 dollars initially to buy in and when that number was drawn then you could hunt the Methow. example-one year the number 5 gets pulled from a hat(or drawn) all folks that bought in and that were number 5,s hunted that year and so on, it was kind of a highbred draw/lottery/ deal(I can't remember exactlyhow my dad had it set up), but I remember a few Game guys were brought up to our camp to hear the Idea, lots of notes were taken......and guess what years later a wild ID system was put in place :dunno:..who knows :dunno:

Oh yes I just remembered another part to his "idea"....every 3 years you had to "re-buy in" a hundred dollars, you could keep your original number or be assigned a new one, all buy-in money was to go in a fund specifically to be used on feeding programs during bad winters in the Methow....if I remember any more specifics I will throw them out there.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 12:31:00 PM by bigmacc »

Offline Rainier10

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2017, 12:28:35 PM »
I would like to chime in with my in the field observation of the local deer herd at my cabin which is smack dab in the middle of mule deer wintering grounds, actually says so right on my tax records.  Spent last weekend at the cabin, right in the middle of the rut.  Looking over about 4,000 acres of prime habitat.  75-100 does and yearlings, 3 bucks, a spike, a spike by two and a decent 2x2.  The 2x2 was attached to the rear end of a hot doe.  Normally more bucks filter into the area over the next month or so.  It will be interesting to see if they do.  Normally at this time of the year there are 12-17 bucks and 150 does.  There are normally more mature bucks as well.

I will say that I think loss of habitat is the number one problem and with that loss of habitat it puts more deer in peoples back yards where they are easier to harvest.  Because you can only harvest bucks they are just getting hammered.  The guy with two or three bucks coming in shoots one and then tells his buddies come on over there are two more left.

I agree that predators are an issue and I am doing my best to take them out of my area.

Just my  :twocents:
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Offline Killmore

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2017, 12:32:12 PM »
We haven't had doe permits in 340-336 gmu for years, the herd size have not increased from this, didn't the muckleshoots do a study a couple years back on the deer herd?

Offline MonstroMuley

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2017, 01:30:08 PM »
All Great Ideas ... DaveMonti Nailed It ... "Where's the Data?"  :dunno:
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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2017, 01:34:47 PM »
We haven't had doe permits in 340-336 gmu for years, the herd size have not increased from this, didn't the muckleshoots do a study a couple years back on the deer herd?
I believe it was in 2014ish they were collaring and doing surveys to gather more information on the herd.
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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2017, 05:15:24 PM »
All Great Ideas ... DaveMonti Nailed It ... "Where's the Data?"  :dunno:

Methow herd, peak 30 to 40k....now days around 19k or less, (F and W numbers).way less according to some "other folks" data, including mine, but at least we see the trend... :twocents:

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Re: Please Delete
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2017, 05:17:30 PM »
Why delete?  :dunno:
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Re: Please Delete
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2017, 08:19:06 PM »
Was it one of my posts? sorry.

Offline DaveMonti

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Re: Please Delete
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2017, 08:23:31 PM »
The OP wanted to discuss ONLY the option of not allowing doe hunting as a means of improving deer numbers and asked that people don't stray into other "solutions".  Being that everyone immediately started offering other solutions, I suspect he got frustrated and decided to bail out of the conversation.


Offline bowman

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Re: Please Delete
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2017, 08:42:59 PM »
Informative post. Mods please don't delete. There has been nothing negative or offensive to other members. Only a discussion that has been informative to other members, such as myself.

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Re: Please Delete
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2017, 08:46:18 PM »
Not slated for deletion at this time. Carry on.  :tup:
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Offline bowman

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2017, 10:08:11 PM »
I am like many others on this forum and I am clueless to the "chain of command" for WDFW.  Can someone enlighten us for who answers to who (regards to deer)?

Offline greenhead_killer

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2017, 03:02:30 AM »
1:I think we need to start the season earlier. Not let weather play in any factor of general season harvest.
2:go to a draw for a season 1-4 much like Colorado does. Keep rut tags the same as far as timeline.( Maybe shorten that hunt to a 10 dayer instead of a 20 day season?)start gen season 1 oct 1st and go for there. Each Ďseasoní is a 5 day hunt with days in between to give them a break.
3:take away antlerless harvest until herd numbers reach healthy numbers.
4:let us run dogs on cats again! Bigger than the wolves at this point is the over population of cats running around with nothing to keep them in check.
5:get rid of 3pt min. Itís targeting mostly mature deer which will be the guys making it through winter anyhow.
6:run a special 2pt Ďmatureí buck hunt. Have to pass a test verifying you c am tell the difference between a young 2pt and an older guy before they will issue the tag

Thatís my 2cents on the issue.
Side note, Iíve got 40 acres in nc wa. First time in 13 years I didnít see a legal 3pt or better md while hunting or on any of the half dozen cams I have in surrounding areas. Something needs to change
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Offline ironhead14

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2017, 06:48:12 AM »
How about killing some damn predators???  They are what are destroying the game animals!

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2017, 07:05:58 AM »
Doesnít matter what you change. If you donít control the predators. Your not going to rebuild any herd. So start by seriously hunting the big cats before December 31. That away hunters can nock down more then the quota in a gmu. Thatís my thoughts. Also Washington needs to sell additional cougar tags like Oregon does.


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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2017, 07:16:20 AM »
Well, that about sums up the single idea approach.  Everyone has their ideas of what needs to be done.

How many of these ideas are supported by data?  As far as the "doe" question goes, how many doe (or antlerless) deer are taken each year in this state?  In each unit?  How do those number of "antlerless" compare to the total number of deer in the state or in the units where the antlerless deer are harvested?

I don't have these answers.  I do, however, know that any "solution" that actually works is supported by data and sound reasoning.  While stopping the harvest of antlerless deer may SEEM like an intuitive solution to the problem of low deer numbers, does the data support that?  Does someone want to pour effort into a perceived solution that may not be supported by data? 

Suppose there are 4000 deer in a unit, and each year, 50 antlerless deer are taken from that unit.  Say that 40 of those antlerless deer are female with the rest being young antlerless bucks.  Will saving 1% (40/4000) of the population each year is going to make a difference in deer numbers?  Of those 40 female deer you save, how many survive the winter, predators, vehicles?  If you assume that of the 4000 deer, 3000 of them are does (I have no idea if this is right) but in buck heavy harvest areas, I expect there are more bucks than does), you are saving 40 of 3000 female deer.  What is the impact of an additional 1.3% of the doe population on the herd for the next year?  5 years? 

I have no idea of these numbers are anywhere NEAR the truth.  I don't have a solution.  I don't even know if there is a real problem as I've not looked up deer population trends for the past 20 years.  I'm not "for" or "against" a ban on antlerless hunting.  My point is that everyone has a "solution", and those solutions tend to be based on perception and not data.  If you want to make an impact, present an argument to the governing body that has DATA associated with it, and real analysis that shows results.  If you do not, you OR the governing body has NO idea how impactful your solution is. 

Now, I understand that REAL DATA is hard to come by, and it takes work, and most people have no idea of where to get the data, and if they did, it would probably be somewhat difficult to gather and compile, so guess what?  It's too hard! to get the data.  It's much easier to go with perception, which is highly emotional. 

So on and on we go, people throwing out emotional based solutions that are as varied as the personalities on this forum and no solutions get implemented because there is no data supporting how the solution may change the status quo. 

I know this idea is going to be met with hostility.  Nobody want's to hear that their "perception" isn't necessarily valid, or enough "evidence" to base real changes on.  And nobody want's to be faced with the task of collecting the data, if it even exists.  So my observations will not go over well with anyone who has an emotional based "solution". 

Now, just remember, before you go on and tell me "Well, if you have all the answers, what does your data tell you?" 
I don't have the data.  I have not decided to wade into this mess.  I just spend most of my hunting time in other states.  I don't profess to have the solutions or the data or the desire to do any of this.  But if you are so motivated, take some advice and start with the data.



Dave, I have read all of these topics/posts......You are SPOT ON, couldn't agree more.

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Offline Slamadoo

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2017, 08:45:14 AM »
Honestly, I think the best and most effective way that anyone of us could help is by joining the Mule Deer Foundation. This organization is already a conservation group dedicated to the future of Mule Deer and Mule Deer hunting. If you look at the work that RMEF has done for elk over the past two decades, it isn't a coincidence that our elk numbers across the west are so high. RMEF has way more influence than MDF and many other conservation groups because of the size of their membership. Now much of the work that RMEF does, has positive effects on Mule Deer, but imagine if the MDF had the same financial muscle as RMEF to put towards Mule Deer conservation. Especially when it comes to habitat.Join the MDF and encourage others to do so as well. Collectively, we need to put our money and volunteer hours where our mouth is.

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2017, 09:07:55 AM »
A quick fix won't help.  A comprehensive recovery plan is needed that addresses:

harvest of does
harvest of bucks
mortality of injured deer by various hunting methods
road kill
winter kill
wolves, bear, cougar predation
loss of habitat due to extreme wildfires
loss of habitat from development in winter range
etc. etc.

As one of these threats worsens, so do the others.  They are linked.  Treat mule deer as if it were an endangered or threatened species.  You can't just pick one action and expect the results you want.  The threat to the deer comes in many forms, and grows exponentially.   :twocents: 

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2017, 09:52:28 AM »
Well, that about sums up the single idea approach.  Everyone has their ideas of what needs to be done.

How many of these ideas are supported by data?  As far as the "doe" question goes, how many doe (or antlerless) deer are taken each year in this state?  In each unit?  How do those number of "antlerless" compare to the total number of deer in the state or in the units where the antlerless deer are harvested?

I don't have these answers.  I do, however, know that any "solution" that actually works is supported by data and sound reasoning.  While stopping the harvest of antlerless deer may SEEM like an intuitive solution to the problem of low deer numbers, does the data support that?  Does someone want to pour effort into a perceived solution that may not be supported by data? 

Suppose there are 4000 deer in a unit, and each year, 50 antlerless deer are taken from that unit.  Say that 40 of those antlerless deer are female with the rest being young antlerless bucks.  Will saving 1% (40/4000) of the population each year is going to make a difference in deer numbers?  Of those 40 female deer you save, how many survive the winter, predators, vehicles?  If you assume that of the 4000 deer, 3000 of them are does (I have no idea if this is right) but in buck heavy harvest areas, I expect there are more bucks than does), you are saving 40 of 3000 female deer.  What is the impact of an additional 1.3% of the doe population on the herd for the next year?  5 years? 

I have no idea of these numbers are anywhere NEAR the truth.  I don't have a solution.  I don't even know if there is a real problem as I've not looked up deer population trends for the past 20 years.  I'm not "for" or "against" a ban on antlerless hunting.  My point is that everyone has a "solution", and those solutions tend to be based on perception and not data.  If you want to make an impact, present an argument to the governing body that has DATA associated with it, and real analysis that shows results.  If you do not, you OR the governing body has NO idea how impactful your solution is. 

Now, I understand that REAL DATA is hard to come by, and it takes work, and most people have no idea of where to get the data, and if they did, it would probably be somewhat difficult to gather and compile, so guess what?  It's too hard! to get the data.  It's much easier to go with perception, which is highly emotional. 

So on and on we go, people throwing out emotional based solutions that are as varied as the personalities on this forum and no solutions get implemented because there is no data supporting how the solution may change the status quo. 

I know this idea is going to be met with hostility.  Nobody want's to hear that their "perception" isn't necessarily valid, or enough "evidence" to base real changes on.  And nobody want's to be faced with the task of collecting the data, if it even exists.  So my observations will not go over well with anyone who has an emotional based "solution". 

Now, just remember, before you go on and tell me "Well, if you have all the answers, what does your data tell you?" 
I don't have the data.  I have not decided to wade into this mess.  I just spend most of my hunting time in other states.  I don't profess to have the solutions or the data or the desire to do any of this.  But if you are so motivated, take some advice and start with the data.

You bring up some good points to consider regarding data. I'll offer this, deer management is not a new thing, states have been managing deer for decades and numerous studies have been done in state after state. It's a pretty well know conclusion that antlerless harvest is increased to reduce herd numbers or to reduce herd growth. When herds decline many states reduce antlerless harvest until herds rebound. I'm not sure how many times the wheel has to be reinvented before everyone understands that a wheel rolls downhill without being pushed? Just some food for thought regarding all the other deer studies that have been done all over the west!
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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2017, 10:44:21 AM »
More need to get out and take coyotes and cats to save the herd period.Anyone who hunted the 300 units should know this to be a fact.This year there were yotes during the day during season chasing the deer daily.you couldn't walk a road back to camp without seeing cat tracks or scat every 100 yards or less in 342.  :twocents:
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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2017, 10:47:40 AM »
These are all great ideas. I would suggest we start by removing the general archery season on mule deer does. This is something simple that can be accomplished relatively easily. Compound bows have come a long way in the last 10-20 years. Someone can walk into a bow shop and get set up and shoot a doe at 20 yards on the same day. Another concern is the season dates. Archery season starts on September 1st but mule deer doe season begins on Sept. 15th and goes to the end of the month. Many of the high country mule deer does begin migrating to the valley floor around mid September. At the very least why not have the season open on the 1st and close on the 15th? That way the majority of the migrating does will not be effected. Also, from what I have witness and based on talking with game wardens it is a law enforcement nightmare. The first half of September is fairly mellow but on the 15th when mule deer doe season opens all heck breaks loose. It is very common to see hunters standing in the middle of the pavement flinging arrows at does on private land. The doe is wounded and runs a few hundred yards to die and rather than risk getting caught the shooter just drives away. Of course people break the law during all the hunting seasons but the mule deer doe archery season is by far and away the worst. There are a significant number of lazy unethical hunters driving private roads/highways flinging arrows. What possible harm could come from taking away a general season on female mule deer? I just checked the regulations and it is against the law to harvest female crawdads.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 11:06:05 AM by GoldenRing270 »

Offline Oh Mah

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Re: A Proposal for Washington's Mule Deer
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2017, 11:00:42 AM »
Cutting doe harvest makes too much sense,The dept. not doing this years ago is why so many WA. hunters feel the way they do about the dept.

Dang don't they realize it would leave more for the wolves to eat.  :o
"Boss of the woods"

 

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