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Author Topic: More blood and guts  (Read 18664 times)

Offline Time Immemorial 1855

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Re: More blood and guts
« Reply #150 on: January 31, 2018, 03:39:44 AM »
Well its good to know that in his taking of 10 or so elk he is probably also killing a fair amount of pregnant cows. Kind of a warm, cozy feeling.
So the master hunters are excluded? They kill pregnant cows as well

Offline Time Immemorial 1855

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Re: More blood and guts
« Reply #151 on: January 31, 2018, 03:52:06 AM »
o
What makes this a uniquely Washington problem? As I understand it many tribes across the west share the same hunting and fishing rights but I don't hear about how Wyoming wildlife is in shambles due to native harvest.

Outside of Washington, on most of the reservations in Montana, Wyoming, and other western states, is that the Indians can only hunt on there respective reservations.  In Montana and Wyoming a native american cant just go hunt anywhere he wants too.  He can only hunt on the reservations.  If he hunts off of them, then he has to follow the rules of the state that he lives in.  Somehow the treaty that was made with the Indians in our region was for areas way outside of their reservations.  WDFW quit trying to fight this because every time they arrest or ticket a native, they simply go to our liberal court systems and it gets thrown out.  Your tax money and license money was being wasted fighting a fight that could never be won.  Not only are we paying for the lawyers to fight this but we are paying the lawyers to fight for the Indians.  One of my close friends who works as a biologist for WDFW and shares an office with the wardens told me that the WDFW has given up trying to prosecute the natives because it costs so much and they always loose.  They will hunt with the most modern weapons and equipment but show up in court in feathers and beads smoking the pipe.

Not only are they not going to fight or prosecute this, WDFW is told to not talk about it to the everyday sportsman and not to blame the lack of special permits and reduced animal numbers to the everyday sportsman because they dont want to referee a holy-war!  If the fisherman and hunters in this state really realized the cost of all of this they would go bizerk!  The sportsman is flipping the bill for all of the management and resource and a small number of individuals due to race are glutting themselves due to the loop holes of the law.  This problem is much much bigger than most people on this forum really understand and know.  WDFW is totally frustrated and has there hands tied and on top of this, told to keep their mouths shut.  you guys talk about them selling the meat for profit.  Just think what a set of Boone and Crockett antlers fetch on the market.  Just a decent 6x6 bull elk in the 300 inch class brings hundreds and hundreds of dollars. 

They can drive right down to the feeding stations.  Cut the locks off of the gates.  drive right in.  Shoot 5 to 10 elk right in front of the 5th grade class field trip.  Load them in their truck.  Drive out and sell them.  AND THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING YOU OR WDFW CAN DO ABOUT IT!!!!  NOTHING!!!!

How can a resourse ever be managed like this.  It cant!
So much for the rules here, bashing even by the moderators

Offline farmin4u_98948

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Re: More blood and guts
« Reply #152 on: January 31, 2018, 04:57:16 AM »
BASH. BASH. BASH. WOW. HOW SAD.  Educate vs Hate. Different tribes have different treaties.  Some tribes can hunt only within their Rez boundaries.  Other tribes retained their traditional hunting and gathering areas outside of their Rez boundaries. I still believe  that the hate is rooted in envy. I know I would love to have their fishing and hunting rights. I tried to give a nice farm cow that had just broken itís leg to my Native neighbors  they declined. Said they never eat beef. Only deer and elk. I thought cool. Thatís great.
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Offline Skyvalhunter

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Re: More blood and guts
« Reply #153 on: January 31, 2018, 05:37:03 AM »
Everyone needs to take part in Wildlife conservation.

Offline trophyhunt

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Re: More blood and guts
« Reply #154 on: January 31, 2018, 06:10:50 AM »
BASH. BASH. BASH. WOW. HOW SAD.  Educate vs Hate. Different tribes have different treaties.  Some tribes can hunt only within their Rez boundaries.  Other tribes retained their traditional hunting and gathering areas outside of their Rez boundaries. I still believe  that the hate is rooted in envy. I know I would love to have their fishing and hunting rights. I tried to give a nice farm cow that had just broken itís leg to my Native neighbors  they declined. Said they never eat beef. Only deer and elk. I thought cool. Thatís great.
Envy, get over yourself.  This is about conservation of OUR resources, this whole racist crap doesn't have any affect, the word is over used.  If you pay attention it's about the deer and elk herds being managed so there is enough for all of us to harvest them.  Most people on this thread realize that it's a small majority that take more than their god given right, it's a joke to those members.  I'll say because of your naive stance that your either uneducated about what really happens within the small pocket of tribal members, your a member or you have the sneaky privilege to hunt within that group??   
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Offline trophyhunt

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Re: More blood and guts
« Reply #155 on: January 31, 2018, 06:16:12 AM »
So how come no one has said this...
Legally as it maybe out of glen wood and trout lake the yaks are getting 75$ for a deer and 150+$ for elk.. non tribesman are paying them for this. Growing up around some of the Indians if they make money at it they will do it. So is that legal? I asked a game warden about it.. he said he couldnít do anything about it... so how are his hands tied?

This is an interesting point...the other day I spoke with an enrolled member down here on the yakama res who told me he asked someone on the council whether he could sell the meat from elk he shoots and was told if he is selling it to feed his family it is just another way he is providing a living....which I guess in principle I do agree with but the problem I have with it is the extremely finite nature of the resource he is utilizing. Wild game can be so easily overharvested, and cannot be propagated to match harvest in the same ways domesticated livestock can...

I asked the fellow how hard it would be for him to harvest say, 10 elk in a year,  and he kind of just chuckled and said 10? That's easy.

In all fairness I do believe this man is providing meat for several families not just his own, however, he had a medium sized cow elk in his truck bed and told me he shot a 6x7 bull as well as another bull at the same time way up oak creek somewhere the week before. And had already bagged multiple cows before these... But he only had until the 1st to take cows so he was going back up..........

I say all of this not to incite jealousy or hatred, but simply to state the obvious: if there are even only one or two dozen members of every tribe "playing by the rules" which this man is, doing this and harvesting upwards of a dozen elk every year or more, how can we hope to see and enjoy a thriving population of these animals for generations to come?
I can bet that no councilmen ever said that about selling game, it's  against our law to do so
Ok, so lets talk about selling the game being against your law.  let me ask you an honest question then,  Do you guys enforce that law?  I'll answer that for you, hell no!  I'm sure you've heard of the Jerky guy, AW. How much does he make a year on selling jerky?  I just saw a facebook photo with him standing in front of a full smoker full of elk meat.  And him saying he was all sold out and needs to resupply.  What does a guy do with 25 to over 100 bull elk a year, he sells it.  How about the tribal members that killed elk and deer weekly and drove to Tacoma to sell it to a big time criminal?  Please don't tell me the tribe or the elders didn't know about that one!!!!!!!  Be honest here, these are perfectly honest questions, no bashing or racist remarks were said. 
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Offline farmin4u_98948

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Re: More blood and guts
« Reply #156 on: January 31, 2018, 06:51:51 AM »
BASH. BASH. BASH. WOW. HOW SAD.  Educate vs Hate. Different tribes have different treaties.  Some tribes can hunt only within their Rez boundaries.  Other tribes retained their traditional hunting and gathering areas outside of their Rez boundaries. I still believe  that the hate is rooted in envy. I know I would love to have their fishing and hunting rights. I tried to give a nice farm cow that had just broken itís leg to my Native neighbors  they declined. Said they never eat beef. Only deer and elk. I thought cool. Thatís great.
Envy, get over yourself.  This is about conservation of OUR resources, this whole racist crap doesn't have any affect, the word is over used.  If you pay attention it's about the deer and elk herds being managed so there is enough for all of us to harvest them.  Most people on this thread realize that it's a small majority that take more than their god given right, it's a joke to those members.  I'll say because of your naive stance that your either uneducated about what really happens within the small pocket of tribal members, your a member or you have the sneaky privilege to hunt within that group??


I am neither a tribal member nor do I have any more privilege than you. I should be the one who feels wronged. Yet I donít    I have spent my whole life on the Yakama Rez. 4 th generation non native farmer I rent ground from Yakama Nation   I get my irrigation water through a B I A project Wapato Irrigation. NAIVE. NO.  I have a lifetime of experience. As with any group of people.  Most are very good    There are unfortunately a small few who make the rest look bad.   
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Offline trophyhunt

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Re: More blood and guts
« Reply #157 on: January 31, 2018, 07:04:32 AM »
BASH. BASH. BASH. WOW. HOW SAD.  Educate vs Hate. Different tribes have different treaties.  Some tribes can hunt only within their Rez boundaries.  Other tribes retained their traditional hunting and gathering areas outside of their Rez boundaries. I still believe  that the hate is rooted in envy. I know I would love to have their fishing and hunting rights. I tried to give a nice farm cow that had just broken itís leg to my Native neighbors  they declined. Said they never eat beef. Only deer and elk. I thought cool. Thatís great.
Envy, get over yourself.  This is about conservation of OUR resources, this whole racist crap doesn't have any affect, the word is over used.  If you pay attention it's about the deer and elk herds being managed so there is enough for all of us to harvest them.  Most people on this thread realize that it's a small majority that take more than their god given right, it's a joke to those members.  I'll say because of your naive stance that your either uneducated about what really happens within the small pocket of tribal members, your a member or you have the sneaky privilege to hunt within that group??


I am neither a tribal member nor do I have any more privilege than you. I should be the one who feels wronged. Yet I donít    I have spent my whole life on the Yakama Rez. 4 th generation non native farmer I rent ground from Yakama Nation   I get my irrigation water through a B I A project Wapato Irrigation. NAIVE. NO.  I have a lifetime of experience. As with any group of people.  Most are very good    There are unfortunately a small few who make the rest look bad.
And that is what we are talking about here, the small few that create such conflict.  It's not about the entire tribe, we are not a bunch of racist here, just guys/gals who want equal balance.
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Offline gaddy

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Re: More blood and guts
« Reply #158 on: January 31, 2018, 04:04:17 PM »
Equal balance= playing by the same rules

Offline PlateauNDN

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Re: More blood and guts
« Reply #159 on: January 31, 2018, 06:46:25 PM »
I've said it before and I'll say it again. To instill change you have to prove the unbalance. Nobody right now is doing that, nobody. To show the impact of a few bad apples, to show the impact of someone who abuses our rights by selling, to show the impact of selling whole game in general whether here on or around our rez or further you've got to show the impact it's having.

Nobody and I mean nobody is doing it.

I DO NOT SUPPORT REPEAL, CHANGE OR ABOLISHMENT OF MY RIGHTS OR ANY OTHER YAKAMA MEMBER, BUT I do support science proving that abuse and violation of OUR laws needs to be taken seriously.

I agree and see it first hand that subherds and herds cannot support the specific targeting of a single sex, but it's going to take science to open the eyes of those in charge.

If there's 4 bulls in 1 subherds and all 4 bulls are taken there's nothing left to increase the subherd, therefore pushing them out of the area or slowly dying and decreasing over time due to the nonreplenishment of a male specie.

You take 4 bulls out of a herd and continue to decrease the single sex specie pretty soon there is no herd over time.

That's science, but I'm not a scientist and I can scream to the high heavens as I've done before and nothings going to happen as I don't have some paper on my wall.
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Offline Naches Sportsman

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Re: More blood and guts
« Reply #160 on: January 31, 2018, 07:15:25 PM »
Plat, as a whole, how would you feel if someone based a thesis off of a tribes hunting statistics and studied what the impacts of that tribe may be against elk and deer? I think talking about hunters and tribal harvest would be a good study to see what the real impacts are. It may be tough as there isn't a solid way to get harvest numbers, but if one did have a way, they'd be in good luck.
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Offline Jpmiller

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Re: More blood and guts
« Reply #161 on: January 31, 2018, 07:16:32 PM »
I, along with most on this site, get upset about predator management, tag allocation, season dates, bag limits, closed units, etc. Why would any native group chose to give up it's hunting rights to be governed by Wdfw? Would any of you do so in their situation?

There are some bad non native poachers, should our hunting rights as non natives change due to that?

I would love to see a harvest report from natives but logistically that's a pretty tall order. I think some self reporting would help even in a limited capacity but honestly who here thinks Wdfw can do anything useful with whatever information the tribes would give them?

Offline bobcat

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Re: More blood and guts
« Reply #162 on: January 31, 2018, 07:49:41 PM »
Really, why is science needed when all it takes is common sense to know right from wrong? Especially in cases where the natives are in blatant violation of THEIR OWN LAWS!  (selling deer and elk meat)

The Yakama tribe is the only tribe I know of that has a year around season on deer and elk with absolutely no limit to how many each person can kill. Some members kill only what they need to feed their families, but others kill as many as they can and sell the meat, and the heads/antlers.

A while back a great solution was posted in another thread. The WDFW needs to simply adopt the same hunting seasons and regulations that the Yakama's go by, for the areas that they hunt. It makes perfect sense, since according to the treaty the tribe and citizens of the United States are supposed to hunt "in common" with each other.

So to me that means we all should go by the same rules. Since the Yakama tribe don't follow our seasons and rules when hunting off the reservation, then we have no choice but to follow theirs.


Offline ctwiggs1

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Re: More blood and guts
« Reply #163 on: January 31, 2018, 07:59:02 PM »
There are some bad non native poachers, should our hunting rights as non natives change due to that?

The difference is that we enforce our laws (kind of).

That being said, I am with PlateauNDN: I do think that the treaties that are signed need to be honored the same as our constitutional rights.  You canít talk big about 2A in one breath and then talk about how the tribes shouldnít have what they have in the next. 

There are a lot of complex issues especially on the wet side.  Tribes take all the fish, but it turns out that tribes also run hatcheries better.

Tribes kill a LOT of elk over here, but the Muckleshoot just made a massive purchase into logging grounds that they will likely retain forever.  Iím not wild about it, but it does show that their focus isnít just casinos and fireworks.


Offline PlateauNDN

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Re: More blood and guts
« Reply #164 on: January 31, 2018, 08:01:29 PM »
Common sense??? We're gonna use common sense to be the rule of law now? Ok, well common sense tells me that the US is wasting BILLIONS on ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS so let's round them all up and deport them, NOW.

Common sense tells me, oh man I can go on and on...
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