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Author Topic: An Open Dialogue With WDFW Wolf Plan Consultant Francine Madden  (Read 2274 times)

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: An Open Dialogue With WDFW Wolf Plan Consultant Francine Madden
« Reply #75 on: January 10, 2018, 01:00:54 PM »
This has been a rigged game from the beginning, Josh, and you know it. The organizations like DOW wrote the position papers that the USFWS read to Congress to get this thing pushed through. The testimony was so filled with errors and outright lies as to be criminal. They lied about economic impact, they lied about disease, they lied that wolves would create a natural balance. And this has been a huge cash cow for DOW, Earthfirst, HSUS, Sierra Club, and many more. One or two pictures of a dead wolf and the threat of them being "exterminated" sends hundreds of thousands of dollars to each of these organizations. And it could only have happened with the assistance of the USFWS and the WDFW. And then, those donations go right to the politicians who support them and their goals.

One example is that USFWS told Congress that all of the wolves had been wormed...twice, which they had. However, it was the wrong medication for e. granulosus and the parasite remained active in the released wolves. There was no further testing data made available before release. Ed Bangs was fully aware of the parasite's existence in the original 66. A study by the U of ID in 2012 shows that anywhere from a minimum of 64-85% of captured grey wolves they tested were positive for this parasite, depending on the test area.

So, if you want to sit at the table and have smoke blown up your dark places, by all means, do. But it won't change the wolf plan and it won't change the influence peddling from the animal rights people to those in power. There's far too much political money at stake for real science to interfere.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline andersonjk4

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Re: An Open Dialogue With WDFW Wolf Plan Consultant Francine Madden
« Reply #76 on: January 10, 2018, 02:13:39 PM »
I don't want to put words in jackelope's mouth, but I think he is talking big picture.  Not just about the management of wolves in this state. 

The current role of Francine may be involving the wolf plan, but the larger theme of this thread is the need to increase and unify the voice of the hunting community.  I think that is what jackelope was getting at. 

Offline huntnphool

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Re: An Open Dialogue With WDFW Wolf Plan Consultant Francine Madden
« Reply #77 on: January 10, 2018, 03:19:22 PM »
 Well let's see how long they drag their feet in replacing the "hunters" voice.
The things that come to those who wait, may be the things left by those who got there first!

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Re: An Open Dialogue With WDFW Wolf Plan Consultant Francine Madden
« Reply #78 on: January 10, 2018, 03:24:57 PM »
I don't want to put words in jackelope's mouth, but I think he is talking big picture.  Not just about the management of wolves in this state. 

The current role of Francine may be involving the wolf plan, but the larger theme of this thread is the need to increase and unify the voice of the hunting community.  I think that is what jackelope was getting at.

Its difficult to find a sportsmen's group who has a voice in this state. Already Member of RMEF mule deer foundation

Is this group worth supporting and sending in a donation?

http://huntersheritagecouncil.org/hhc-pac.html

Offline jackelope

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Re: An Open Dialogue With WDFW Wolf Plan Consultant Francine Madden
« Reply #79 on: January 10, 2018, 03:35:55 PM »
I don't want to put words in jackelope's mouth, but I think he is talking big picture.  Not just about the management of wolves in this state. 

The current role of Francine may be involving the wolf plan, but the larger theme of this thread is the need to increase and unify the voice of the hunting community.  I think that is what jackelope was getting at.

Its difficult to find a sportsmen's group who has a voice in this state. Already Member of RMEF mule deer foundation

Is this group worth supporting and sending in a donation?

http://huntersheritagecouncil.org/hhc-pac.html

Yes, as is Washingtonians for Wildlife.

I'm absolutely not talking about "only" wolf management. I'm talking about everything.
:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

My posts, opinions and statements do not represent those of this forum

Offline jackelope

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Re: An Open Dialogue With WDFW Wolf Plan Consultant Francine Madden
« Reply #80 on: January 10, 2018, 03:37:42 PM »
I don't want to put words in jackelope's mouth, but I think he is talking big picture.  Not just about the management of wolves in this state. 

The current role of Francine may be involving the wolf plan, but the larger theme of this thread is the need to increase and unify the voice of the hunting community.  I think that is what jackelope was getting at. 


Jackpot...

Well let's see how long they drag their feet in replacing the "hunters" voice.


Any suggestions for a volunteer to replace that person? I predict nobody will want to volunteer...wait for it!!!

:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

My posts, opinions and statements do not represent those of this forum

Offline KFhunter

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Re: An Open Dialogue With WDFW Wolf Plan Consultant Francine Madden
« Reply #81 on: January 10, 2018, 04:07:15 PM »
The wrong volunteer would do us more harm than good, a single voice against a bunch of others they tend to get overwhelmed and make concessions then later wonder what just happened in there   :dunno:

We need a trained person supported by a big .org
I should be out hunting lions, thanks WDFW

Offline CGDucksandDeer

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Re: An Open Dialogue With WDFW Wolf Plan Consultant Francine Madden
« Reply #82 on: January 10, 2018, 04:15:03 PM »
Thanks for reaching out to Francine, Jake. And for sharing this detailed information and thoughtful dialogue. It's refreshing compared to what some seem to prefer to share on this forum regarding such issues.

I personally don't relish how much the state is spending on her contract, especially with enforcement grossly underfunded and important programs for hunters and anglers on the chopping block. But having been deeply involved in this issue since 2014, I will go out on a limb and say we're lucky to have Francine working to bring diverse stakeholders to the table and moving forward. Including towards accepting lethal removals and eventually, some sort of proactive management through regulated hunts (something I fully support). Without Francine, I'm certain we'd be in a much worse and more expensive place right now, with radical out-of-state litigious groups like the Center for Biological Diversity holding greater influence.

I do very much believe that WDFW needs to do a better job of communicating exactly where this money is coming from, which is general fund appropriations from the legislature and special wildlife license plate revenue, NOT hunting and fishing license revenues. I've made that concern known to the Department, and hope it happens.

As a hunter, I've also been concerned about the lack of active and vocal sportsman's representation on the WAG, especially since Dan left. Nothing against the hunters still on that advisory group, but hunters need a more vocal voice, and some of the current hunting reps seem to want to stay quiet and allow other stakeholders to hold the spotlight.

The "white paper" that Washington Cattlemen’s Association, Cattle Producers of Washington, Washingtonians for Wildlife Conservation, Washington State Sheep Producers, Hunters Heritage Council and the Washington Farm Bureau produced this past November was a solid start towards reframing the dialogue in a more forward-looking direction, and I agree with most of its conclusions.

Some folks on this forum seem to prefer to rant that this is all a rigged game, that hunters are outnumbered, and we're better served commenting amongst ourselves on Internet threads instead of participating in the decision-making process. I understand why you might feel that way, but we have to sit at the table to eat. Especially when we ARE outnumbered. The ranchers know this, and are participating heavily and gaining concessions through it, even from hardline groups like HSUS. Some hunters may not like wolves, conservation orgs, or Washington's wolf management policy, but we do ourselves a disservice if we refuse to participate in the decision-making process.

The next two WAG meetings are slated to focus on hunter concerns, including gaining greater acceptance of those concerns from other stakeholders and beginning to outline post-recovery management. I'll be there. I hope other hunters are as well.

-Chase Gunnell
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 12:10:39 PM by CGDucksandDeer »

Offline andersonjk4

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Re: An Open Dialogue With WDFW Wolf Plan Consultant Francine Madden
« Reply #83 on: January 10, 2018, 05:09:51 PM »
Thanks for reaching out to Francine, Jake. And for sharing this detailed information and thoughtful dialogue. It's refreshing compared to what some seem to prefer to share on this forum regarding such issues.

I personally don't relish how much the state is spending on her contract, especially with enforcement grossly underfunded and important programs for hunters and anglers on the chopping block. But having been deeply involved in this issue since 2014, I will go out on a limb and say we're lucky to have Francine working to bring diverse stakeholders to the table and moving forward. Including towards accepting lethal removals and eventually, some sort of proactive management through regulated hunts (something I fully support). Without Francine, I'm certain we'd be in a much worse and more expensive place right now, with radical out-of-state litigious groups like the Center for Biological Diversity holding greater influence.

I do very much believe that WDFW needs to do a better job of communicating exactly where this money is coming from, which is general fund appropriations from the legislature and special wildlife license plate revenue, NOT hunting and fishing license revenues. I've made that concern known to the Department, and hope it happens.

As a hunter, I've also been concerned about the lack of active and vocal sportsman's representative on the WAG, especially since Dan left. Nothing against the hunters still on that committee, but hunters need a more vocal voice, and some of the current hunting reps seem to want to stay quiet and allow other stakeholders to hold the spotlight.

The "white paper" that Washington Cattlemen’s Association, Cattle Producers of Washington, Washingtonians for Wildlife Conservation, Washington State Sheep Producers, Hunters Heritage Council and the Washington Farm Bureau produced this past November was a solid start towards reframing the dialogue in a more forward-looking direction, and I agree with most of its conclusions.

Some folks on this forum seem to prefer to rant that this is all a rigged game, that hunters are outnumbered, and we're better served commenting amongst ourselves on Internet threads instead of participating in the decision-making process. I understand why you might feel that way, but we have to sit at the table to eat. Especially when we ARE outnumbered. The ranchers know this, and are participating heavily and gaining concessions through it, even from hardline groups like HSUS. Some hunters may not like wolves, conservation orgs, or Washington's wolf management policy, but we do ourselves a disservice if we refuse to participate in the decision-making process.

The next two WAG meetings are slated to focus on hunter concerns, including gaining greater acceptance of those concerns from other stakeholders and beginning to outline post-recovery management. I'll be there. I hope other hunters are as well.

-Chase Gunnell

Extremely well stated.  Thank you for sharing your information.  This is exactly why I decided to email Francine in the first place and then ultimately shared the conversation here.   

Offline idahohuntr

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Re: An Open Dialogue With WDFW Wolf Plan Consultant Francine Madden
« Reply #84 on: January 10, 2018, 05:24:56 PM »
The wrong volunteer would do us more harm than good, a single voice against a bunch of others they tend to get overwhelmed and make concessions then later wonder what just happened in there   :dunno:

We need a trained person supported by a big .org
While I agree the wrong person(s) can do more harm than good - I think a lot of folks are inflating what an advisory group composed of volunteers does...they have 0 authority to decide, agree to, or concede anything.  Its simply information gathering. 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." - TR

Offline KFhunter

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Re: An Open Dialogue With WDFW Wolf Plan Consultant Francine Madden
« Reply #85 on: January 10, 2018, 05:32:00 PM »
The wrong volunteer would do us more harm than good, a single voice against a bunch of others they tend to get overwhelmed and make concessions then later wonder what just happened in there   :dunno:

We need a trained person supported by a big .org
While I agree the wrong person(s) can do more harm than good - I think a lot of folks are inflating what an advisory group composed of volunteers does...they have 0 authority to decide, agree to, or concede anything.  Its simply information gathering.

 :yeah:   and this is all being printed out. 
I should be out hunting lions, thanks WDFW

Offline JimmyHoffa

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Re: An Open Dialogue With WDFW Wolf Plan Consultant Francine Madden
« Reply #86 on: January 10, 2018, 05:33:14 PM »
The wrong volunteer would do us more harm than good, a single voice against a bunch of others they tend to get overwhelmed and make concessions then later wonder what just happened in there   :dunno:

We need a trained person supported by a big .org
While I agree the wrong person(s) can do more harm than good - I think a lot of folks are inflating what an advisory group composed of volunteers does...they have 0 authority to decide, agree to, or concede anything.  Its simply information gathering.
It delays the inevitable lawsuits from some of their handlers.

Offline Special T

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Re: An Open Dialogue With WDFW Wolf Plan Consultant Francine Madden
« Reply #87 on: January 10, 2018, 10:10:08 PM »
I don't want to put words in jackelope's mouth, but I think he is talking big picture.  Not just about the management of wolves in this state. 

The current role of Francine may be involving the wolf plan, but the larger theme of this thread is the need to increase and unify the voice of the hunting community.  I think that is what jackelope was getting at.

Its difficult to find a sportsmen's group who has a voice in this state. Already Member of RMEF mule deer foundation

Is this group worth supporting and sending in a donation?

http://huntersheritagecouncil.org/hhc-pac.html
I went to the Washington for Wildlife Conservation & Hunters Hertiage council Meeting In Ellensburg @Bushcraft could probably explain them better than I but I will give you my Impression. Both are an organization of Organizations. It appears to me to be the embodyment of differing organizations banding together to petition the state on mutual issues of concern. I meet some past WDFW employees, and some people that have thier pulse on the whos who in Olympia.
 Half the battle is knowing the players, knowing how the system works, whom are friendly to sports men (on both sides of the isle), and how to purwade those folks.

IMO is you want to do small part join an organization that belongs. If you are part of a sportsmen organization that is not a member petition them to find out about the WWC and Join. Www.w4wc.org

I think you can also join as an individual.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

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Offline huntnphool

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Re: An Open Dialogue With WDFW Wolf Plan Consultant Francine Madden
« Reply #88 on: January 10, 2018, 11:46:14 PM »
I don't want to put words in jackelope's mouth, but I think he is talking big picture.  Not just about the management of wolves in this state. 

The current role of Francine may be involving the wolf plan, but the larger theme of this thread is the need to increase and unify the voice of the hunting community.  I think that is what jackelope was getting at. 


Jackpot...

Well let's see how long they drag their feet in replacing the "hunters" voice.


Any suggestions for a volunteer to replace that person? I predict nobody will want to volunteer...wait for it!!!

 Text sent
The things that come to those who wait, may be the things left by those who got there first!

Offline Skyvalhunter

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Re: An Open Dialogue With WDFW Wolf Plan Consultant Francine Madden
« Reply #89 on: January 11, 2018, 05:35:49 AM »
Text received

Offline Calvin Rayborn

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Re: An Open Dialogue With WDFW Wolf Plan Consultant Francine Madden
« Reply #90 on: January 11, 2018, 01:31:00 PM »
Ms. Madden just seems to have too many variables in her scenario...Where are the practical solutions, or will this thing just keep getting dragged-out?

Offline huntnphool

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Re: An Open Dialogue With WDFW Wolf Plan Consultant Francine Madden
« Reply #91 on: January 11, 2018, 02:11:25 PM »
Ms. Madden just seems to have too many variables in her scenario...Where are the practical solutions, or will this thing just keep getting dragged-out?

 See post #64 ;)
The things that come to those who wait, may be the things left by those who got there first!

Offline ribka

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Re: An Open Dialogue With WDFW Wolf Plan Consultant Francine Madden
« Reply #92 on: January 11, 2018, 07:24:30 PM »
Ms. Madden just seems to have too many variables in her scenario...Where are the practical solutions, or will this thing just keep getting dragged-out?

We've just stepped into bizarro world here on hunt WA. Anti -hunting organizations and eco terrorists are good and we must enter into meaningful and diverse non confrontational dialogue with them and sportsmen who contribute to wildlife conservation are evil

and every year in Washington we continue lose more and more fishing and hunting opportunities despite the fact we contribute millions to wildlife conservation


Offline Calvin Rayborn

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Re: An Open Dialogue With WDFW Wolf Plan Consultant Francine Madden
« Reply #93 on: January 11, 2018, 08:09:43 PM »
Ms. Madden just seems to have too many variables in her scenario...Where are the practical solutions, or will this thing just keep getting dragged-out?

We've just stepped into bizarro world here on hunt WA. Anti -hunting organizations and eco terrorists are good and we must enter into meaningful and diverse non confrontational dialogue with them and sportsmen who contribute to wildlife conservation are evil

and every year in Washington we continue lose more and more fishing and hunting opportunities despite the fact we contribute millions to wildlife conservation


It definitely seems like a "bad bye" and a "bad buy" :twocents: in bizarro-world to me!

Offline Calvin Rayborn

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Re: An Open Dialogue With WDFW Wolf Plan Consultant Francine Madden
« Reply #94 on: January 11, 2018, 08:31:23 PM »
Ms. Madden just seems to have too many variables in her scenario...Where are the practical solutions, or will this thing just keep getting dragged-out?

 See post #64 ;)

Yup, I think ribka and the phool have this scheme summed-up pretty well. It's like the old slogan of shady politicians, "If you can't convince 'em, CONFUSE 'EM!"

Offline ribka

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Re: An Open Dialogue With WDFW Wolf Plan Consultant Francine Madden
« Reply #95 on: January 11, 2018, 09:03:56 PM »
Including towards accepting lethal removals and eventually, some sort of proactive management through regulated hunts (something I fully support).

So it is well established science by very experienced wildlife biologists and over 150 years science that is settled that the only way to control exploding wolf populations is through trapping and poisoning.

Do you support this ? :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:


Thanks for reaching out to Francine, Jake. And for sharing this detailed information and thoughtful dialogue. It's refreshing compared to what some seem to prefer to share on this forum regarding such issues.

I personally don't relish how much the state is spending on her contract, especially with enforcement grossly underfunded and important programs for hunters and anglers on the chopping block. But having been deeply involved in this issue since 2014, I will go out on a limb and say we're lucky to have Francine working to bring diverse stakeholders to the table and moving forward. Including towards accepting lethal removals and eventually, some sort of proactive management through regulated hunts (something I fully support). Without Francine, I'm certain we'd be in a much worse and more expensive place right now, with radical out-of-state litigious groups like the Center for Biological Diversity holding greater influence.

I do very much believe that WDFW needs to do a better job of communicating exactly where this money is coming from, which is general fund appropriations from the legislature and special wildlife license plate revenue, NOT hunting and fishing license revenues. I've made that concern known to the Department, and hope it happens.

As a hunter, I've also been concerned about the lack of active and vocal sportsman's representation on the WAG, especially since Dan left. Nothing against the hunters still on that advisory group, but hunters need a more vocal voice, and some of the current hunting reps seem to want to stay quiet and allow other stakeholders to hold the spotlight.

The "white paper" that Washington Cattlemen’s Association, Cattle Producers of Washington, Washingtonians for Wildlife Conservation, Washington State Sheep Producers, Hunters Heritage Council and the Washington Farm Bureau produced this past November was a solid start towards reframing the dialogue in a more forward-looking direction, and I agree with most of its conclusions.

Some folks on this forum seem to prefer to rant that this is all a rigged game, that hunters are outnumbered, and we're better served commenting amongst ourselves on Internet threads instead of participating in the decision-making process. I understand why you might feel that way, but we have to sit at the table to eat. Especially when we ARE outnumbered. The ranchers know this, and are participating heavily and gaining concessions through it, even from hardline groups like HSUS. Some hunters may not like wolves, conservation orgs, or Washington's wolf management policy, but we do ourselves a disservice if we refuse to participate in the decision-making process.

The next two WAG meetings are slated to focus on hunter concerns, including gaining greater acceptance of those concerns from other stakeholders and beginning to outline post-recovery management. I'll be there. I hope other hunters are as well.

-Chase Gunnell

Offline wolfbait

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Re: An Open Dialogue With WDFW Wolf Plan Consultant Francine Madden
« Reply #96 on: January 14, 2018, 09:14:13 PM »
Unholy Alliances: The danger of alignment with environmental and anti hunting groups


http://idahoforwildlife.com/index.php/idfg-wildlife-summit#Unholy%20Alliances

Offline idahohuntr

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Re: An Open Dialogue With WDFW Wolf Plan Consultant Francine Madden
« Reply #97 on: January 14, 2018, 09:53:41 PM »
Unholy Alliances: The danger of alignment with environmental and anti hunting groups


http://idahoforwildlife.com/index.php/idfg-wildlife-summit#Unholy%20Alliances
This article is garbage written by guys who are clueless.  Nearly all of IDFGs senior leaders are big hunters...and I would bet 95% or more of all their employees are hunters.  Get a clue.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." - TR

Offline wolfbait

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Re: An Open Dialogue With WDFW Wolf Plan Consultant Francine Madden
« Reply #98 on: Yesterday at 07:56:34 AM »
Unholy Alliances: The danger of alignment with environmental and anti hunting groups


http://idahoforwildlife.com/index.php/idfg-wildlife-summit#Unholy%20Alliances
This article is garbage written by guys who are clueless.  Nearly all of IDFGs senior leaders are big hunters...and I would bet 95% or more of all their employees are hunters.  Get a clue.

"What are the dangers of bringing in environmental groups to fund state Fish and Game agencies? California is a great example of this “slippery slope.” Once environmental and anti-hunting groups began to fund the CA agency they eventually were able to influence and have direct management over it. Examples were changing its agencies name away from ‘Fish and Game” to satisfy non-hunters, anti-hunters and environmentalists. Eliminating predator hunting and use of lead ammo has occurred in CA. States like Florida and Washington state lost the ability to use dogs to hunt bears and Oregon Hunters are frustrated because they cannot hunt cougars. Supporting radicalized native ecosystem religion which suggests returning the land, fish and wildlife back to pre Columbian days. Most environmental groups such as Defenders of Wildlife and some in IDFG actively support and are currently implementing some of these programs." Read More @

http://idahoforwildlife.com/index.php/idfg-wildlife-summit#Unholy%20Alliances


In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use without profit or payment for non-profit research and educational purposes only.  s:  http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml

Idahoh-have you read WDFW's thirty year plan?




 

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CZ 527 B&C stock and rail $200 by Tracker0721
[Yesterday at 09:33:16 PM]


Venison pot stickers ah lah H20hunter by 7mmfan
[Yesterday at 09:28:55 PM]


Last hunt of the year... by crabcreekhunter
[Yesterday at 09:28:14 PM]


Elk Hunting in Ferry, Stevens, or Pend Oreille Counties by KFhunter
[Yesterday at 09:20:27 PM]


2017 Late Blacktail Bucks Father/Son by Sneekee23
[Yesterday at 08:44:52 PM]


WTT rifle for MACBOOK PRO by robertsjd
[Yesterday at 08:43:39 PM]


Please Report Problems & Bugs Here by KFhunter
[Yesterday at 08:31:53 PM]