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Author Topic: Need some stability  (Read 1037 times)

Offline Eric M

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Need some stability
« on: January 10, 2018, 09:45:21 PM »
So I'm screwing around with a 22 250 load and I have a pretty typical 1 in 12 twist barrel. Manual says to stay under 60 grains for stability unless you have a faster twist. I wanted to try to get a 60 to stay flat. It shoots 55 grain Sierras pretty well. Anyway thoughts on loads. Faster enduron 4166 powder? Something slower burning?

Offline b23

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Re: Need some stability
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2018, 11:37:33 PM »
Which particular 22-250 is it?  I only ask because most 22-250's have 1-14 twist barrels which unfortunately really limits many 22-250's from shooting heavier bullets.

Offline Eric M

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Re: Need some stability
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2018, 11:44:19 PM »
Which particular 22-250 is it?  I only ask because most 22-250's have 1-14 twist barrels which unfortunately really limits many 22-250's from shooting heavier bullets.
It's a Savage with a twist in 12. This is mostly just a curiosity thing for me. According to what I've been reading, a twist in 12 isn't enough. They were saying 10 or 8. I've got a box of 60 grain Sierras and I thought I'd see if there was a way to keep them stable with the right powder.

Offline BigGoonTuna

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Re: Need some stability
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2018, 04:21:20 AM »
i'd say the only way to find out would be to try it.  i have read quite a few people saying that a 1:9 shouldn't stabilize 140gr bullets in my .264 mag, it shoots them just fine.
life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun!

Offline TheSkyBuster

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Re: Need some stability
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2018, 05:32:45 AM »

I shoot a savage model 16 with a 22” 1-12 bore and it shoots the sierra 1375 bullets just fine.  You might not even notice a difference under 200 yards.  I was using Varget with those bullets.  Ultimately for my pet load I settled on Sierra 1390’s seated .040” off the lands and pushed by Vihta- N135.   I can look up and pm you my load data when I get home if you want.




Offline Eric M

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Re: Need some stability
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2018, 07:06:55 AM »

I shoot a savage model 16 with a 22” 1-12 bore and it shoots the sierra 1375 bullets just fine.  You might not even notice a difference under 200 yards.  I was using Varget with those bullets.  Ultimately for my pet load I settled on Sierra 1390’s seated .040” off the lands and pushed by Vihta- N135.   I can look up and pm you my load data when I get home if you want.




If u get a chance that would be great thanks.

Offline Eric M

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Re: Need some stability
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2018, 07:08:35 AM »
i'd say the only way to find out would be to try it.  i have read quite a few people saying that a 1:9 shouldn't stabilize 140gr bullets in my .264 mag, it shoots them just fine.
I was going to load a few last night but decided to wait and see if anyone had any thoughts on the matter first. Thanms.

Offline b23

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Re: Need some stability
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2018, 07:33:20 AM »
Savage is one of the few companies that has wised up and uses a little faster twist on their 22-250's. 

At 22-250 speeds a 1-12tw should be plenty for up to 60gr bullets. 

Maybe take a look at the 53gr Vmax.  They have a higher BC than many of the 60 grainers and can be driven faster.

Offline Eric M

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Re: Need some stability
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2018, 01:00:00 PM »
Savage is one of the few companies that has wised up and uses a little faster twist on their 22-250's. 

At 22-250 speeds a 1-12tw should be plenty for up to 60gr bullets. 

Maybe take a look at the 53gr Vmax.  They have a higher BC than many of the 60 grainers and can be driven faster.
Thanks. The Berger manual (1st edition page 346) was where it said 14 and 12 stabilizes traditional bullets under 60 grains.then it suggests a 9 or even a 7 for the 70 grain so it seemed 60 was in no mans land. Anyway shot some matchking 52 grain today. They grouped ok but I might try 4064 instead of 4895 for those or maybe that enduron 4166. If anyone has a suggestion for a powder for those 60s let me know. Thanks.

Offline Calvin Rayborn

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Re: Need some stability
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2018, 01:19:47 PM »
Boat tail?

Offline Bill W

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Re: Need some stability
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2018, 01:52:41 PM »
mine stabiliezed 60 grain Hornady HPs with a 12 inch twist.

Offline Eric M

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Re: Need some stability
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2018, 11:58:55 AM »
Boat tail?
No the 60 grain bullets I have are just hp's.

Offline Eric M

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Re: Need some stability
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2018, 12:03:00 PM »
mine stabiliezed 60 grain Hornady HPs with a 12 inch twist.
Just curious what was the maximum distance you shot? @theskybuster mentioned 200 yards and I have heard that from one other person that they might be fine out to 200.

Offline Eric M

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Re: Need some stability
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2018, 12:27:38 PM »
And to further muddy the water while looking in the Hodgdon magazine from last year, it lists the 22-250 with a 1 in 14 twist and goes all the way up to 70 grain. In its rifle data lists, it has the 63 grain Sierra SP's listed. I guess I'll just load some up and see.

Offline b23

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Re: Need some stability
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2018, 06:38:38 PM »
Eric M, you may already know this but the weight of the bullet doesn't necessarily dictate the twist, as much as its design/profile does.  A flat base 60gr bullet can get away with using a slower twist while a same weight VLD type bullet will require a faster twist to stabilize it.  A good example is Hornady's 53gr Vmax.  It has a very sleek profile with a relatively short bearing surface and nearly always requires at least a 1-12tw barrel but the nearly the same weight 52gr Amax, with its less sleek profile, lower BC, and longer bearing surface typically shoots extremely well from a 1-14tw 22-250.  Generally, the higher the BC the faster the barrel twist needs to be.

Offline Eric M

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Re: Need some stability
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2018, 06:46:19 PM »
Eric M, you may already know this but the weight of the bullet doesn't necessarily dictate the twist, as much as its design/profile does.  A flat base 60gr bullet can get away with using a slower twist while a same weight VLD type bullet will require a faster twist to stabilize it.  A good example is Hornady's 53gr Vmax.  It has a very sleek profile with a relatively short bearing surface and nearly always requires at least a 1-12tw barrel but the nearly the same weight 52gr Amax, with its less sleek profile, lower BC, and longer bearing surface typically shoots extremely well from a 1-14tw 22-250.  Generally, the higher the BC the faster the barrel twist needs to be.
Thanks. I kind of knew that but it's helpful. I might get this figured out before I need to do a barrel change haha

Offline AWS

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Re: Need some stability
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2018, 10:42:27 PM »
It is the relationship between the twist of the rifling and the length of the bullet regardless of weight or nose shape that determines stability.  It's known as the Greenhill formula.

"In 1879, Greenhill developed a rule of thumb for calculating the optimal twist rate for lead-core bullets. This shortcut uses the bullet's length, needing no allowances for weight or nose shape.[6] Greenhill applied this theory to account for the steadiness of flight conferred upon an elongated projectile by rifling. The eponymous Greenhill Formula, still used today"

Retained velocity over distance is do to bullet shape BC, not stability.
After the first shot the rest are just noise.

Make mine a Minaska

Offline Eric M

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Re: Need some stability
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2018, 11:19:35 PM »
It is the relationship between the twist of the rifling and the length of the bullet regardless of weight or nose shape that determines stability.  It's known as the Greenhill formula.

"In 1879, Greenhill developed a rule of thumb for calculating the optimal twist rate for lead-core bullets. This shortcut uses the bullet's length, needing no allowances for weight or nose shape.[6] Greenhill applied this theory to account for the steadiness of flight conferred upon an elongated projectile by rifling. The eponymous Greenhill Formula, still used today"

Retained velocity over distance is do to bullet shape BC, not stability.
Thanks. In relation to reloading I feel like the more I learn the less I know.

Offline TheSkyBuster

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Re: Need some stability
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2018, 07:11:51 AM »
mine stabiliezed 60 grain Hornady HPs with a 12 inch twist.
Just curious what was the maximum distance you shot? @theskybuster mentioned 200 yards and I have heard that from one other person that they might be fine out to 200.


I only tried that bullet during load development at 100 yards.  My notes from 2011 list the group sizes as between .7 to 1.3” (outside to outside of the hole).   

From Sierra’s website:

.22 Caliber (.224) High Velocity 60 gr. HP (100 bullets)   
.22 CALIBER (.224) HIGH VELOCITY 60 GR. HP
For rifles, this is a high-velocity bullet designed to give precision accuracy with the explosive expansion of Sierra's Varminter-style construction. This bullet is at its best when fired from the larger-capacity cartridges, such as the 22-250 or 220 Swift in rifles with barrels having 1x14" twist rates, stabilizing easily for excellent long-range accuracy and effective expansion. Normally, 1x12" or faster twist rates work best for medium-capacity cases, such as the 223 Remington. These bullets are excellent for long-range varmint hunting.
 
For handguns, although this bullet is of Hollow Point construction, we cannot recommend it for hunting purposes. This bullet has been very successful on half-size NRA Silhouette targets.

The #1375 was introduced in 1984
.

Offline Eric M

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Re: Need some stability
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2018, 10:17:28 AM »
mine stabiliezed 60 grain Hornady HPs with a 12 inch twist.
Just curious what was the maximum distance you shot? @theskybuster mentioned 200 yards and I have heard that from one other person that they might be fine out to 200.


I only tried that bullet during load development at 100 yards.  My notes from 2011 list the group sizes as between .7 to 1.3” (outside to outside of the hole).   

From Sierra’s website:

.22 Caliber (.224) High Velocity 60 gr. HP (100 bullets)   
.22 CALIBER (.224) HIGH VELOCITY 60 GR. HP
For rifles, this is a high-velocity bullet designed to give precision accuracy with the explosive expansion of Sierra's Varminter-style construction. This bullet is at its best when fired from the larger-capacity cartridges, such as the 22-250 or 220 Swift in rifles with barrels having 1x14" twist rates, stabilizing easily for excellent long-range accuracy and effective expansion. Normally, 1x12" or faster twist rates work best for medium-capacity cases, such as the 223 Remington. These bullets are excellent for long-range varmint hunting.
 
For handguns, although this bullet is of Hollow Point construction, we cannot recommend it for hunting purposes. This bullet has been very successful on half-size NRA Silhouette targets.

The #1375 was introduced in 1984
.
Thanks for all that. I didn't see it in the Sierra manual but I never even think to look on their website. The Hodgdon annual also says 1 to 14 is fine. Going to load some maybe tonight. Hopefully shoot them in a couple days. Let you kknow what happens.

Offline jasnt

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Re: Need some stability
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2018, 05:22:09 PM »
Why they haven't put out a fast twist 22-250 is beyond me.
🐾

"... we cannot change the fact that people will act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable. The only thing we can do is play on the one string we have, and that is our attitude. I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. And so it is with you... we are in charge of our Attitudes."
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Offline Eric M

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Re: Need some stability
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2018, 05:42:16 PM »
Why they haven't put out a fast twist 22-250 is beyond me.
:yeah:

Offline HUNTINCOUPLE

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Re: Need some stability
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2018, 04:47:40 PM »
Why they haven't put out a fast twist 22-250 is beyond me.


I'm bar from any type of rifle  expert. Why change what works?  I would think faster twist equals faster barrel wear?
Slap some bacon on a biscut and lets go, were burrnin daylight!

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Offline Eric M

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Re: Need some stability
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2018, 05:31:37 PM »
Why they haven't put out a fast twist 22-250 is beyond me.


I'm bar from any type of rifle  expert. Why change what works?  I would think faster twist equals faster barrel wear?
It's a trade off

Offline jasnt

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Re: Need some stability
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2018, 06:56:46 PM »
Why they haven't put out a fast twist 22-250 is beyond me.


I'm bar from any type of rifle  expert. Why change what works?  I would think faster twist equals faster barrel wear?
to take advantage of the case capacity in a 22cal and shoot heavys to buck wind better.  It most folks main complaint with a 22-250.  A 1:7 twist 250 would be sweet for whistle pigs
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"... we cannot change the fact that people will act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable. The only thing we can do is play on the one string we have, and that is our attitude. I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. And so it is with you... we are in charge of our Attitudes."
Charles R. Swindoll

 

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