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Author Topic: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags  (Read 2503 times)

Offline KFhunter

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2018, 11:29:32 PM »
No surprise here the Wolves are decimating the moose. 


Moose are and have been struggling in locations that are wolf free.  While wolves certainly will have an impact, itís the ticks WA should also  be concerned with.

I agree with the ticks being a factor but I also remember people on this exact site predictions that moose would be in serious decline when the wolves showed up in Washington and also Idaho. There was also a lot of members on this site saying the anti wolf crowd were blowing everything out of proportion and that everything would be fine. Their exact prediction was the need to limit hunter opportunities and tags. I guess the guys crying wolf werenít that far off after all.

I remember them saying it will make us better hunters

Offline Karl Blanchard

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2018, 06:57:42 AM »
The issue we have in this state and many other states is we have effectively cut off our youth from having any real chance of drawing any of these tags in their lifetime. They are so behind the rest of us on points that they will never catch up. These youth cow tags are a unique opportunity for a few kids to have a special hunt for a special animal. If it's truly for preservation of the species then why are we hunting any of them at all right now?  To make the statement that if kids can't go moose hunting they'll quit hunting anyways is a fairly shallow thought. The reason we will lose youth is lack of success at all. This is a very difficult state for youth to be successful in so having some permit opportunities outside of the norm is a great way for a handful of them to find some success afield.

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Offline Pathfinder101

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2018, 08:14:00 AM »
The issue we have in this state and many other states is we have effectively cut off our youth from having any real chance of drawing any of these tags in their lifetime. They are so behind the rest of us on points that they will never catch up. These youth cow tags are a unique opportunity for a few kids to have a special hunt for a special animal. If it's truly for preservation of the species then why are we hunting any of them at all right now?  To make the statement that if kids can't go moose hunting they'll quit hunting anyways is a fairly shallow thought. The reason we will lose youth is lack of success at all. This is a very difficult state for youth to be successful in so having some permit opportunities outside of the norm is a great way for a handful of them to find some success afield.

I agree with Karl in as much as this:  If we are going to cut cow tags because moose are below carrying capacity, we should start with cutting tags for adults first.
Unfortunately, working the numbers, it appears that only about 1700 kids put in for 18 youth cow tags.  At least 7,000 adults are putting in for 33 cow tags.  Adults pay $7.10 for an application.  Kids pay $3.80.  That means the state is making just under $50,000 in non-refundable application fees on the adult applications, and only about $6,500 on youth apps.  That's probably why they are talking about cutting youth tags first.  Sad, but probably factual.

Whenever WDFW does something that I think I don't understand, I always ask myself: "How does this affect their revenue stream?"...

...and I usually find my answer pretty quickly  :(
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Offline Karl Blanchard

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2018, 08:18:42 AM »
 :yeah: unfortunately you are spot on.
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Offline B4noon

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2018, 08:54:05 AM »
Karl's right on fortunately i have had kids draw the youth moose and the experience has been incredible, I would love nothing more then the opportunity for myself to hunt a moose of any kind however i would gladly reduce my odds if it gave another youth the opportunity and experience my kids received.  WDFW is missing the boat and although it is reduced revenue now being that the kids get in at a lot cheaper rate if you get those kids hooked early WDFW would receive a lifetime of revenue.  Same with the Clemans ewe tags 10 tags great why not kick 2 of those over to youth and provide more opportunity.  Now they want to eliminate the opportunity to buy points until youth pass hunters ed not only does this reduce revenue in the short term but also long term.  I started buying points the year my kids were born which allowed them to have some great opportunity at an early age.  If you allow the option to buy points for youth that aren't hunting yet not only is it free revenue for the state but also creates an extremely high percentage of return customers who are committed and invested in the system.  I will add that benhuntins and bearpaws observations are unfortunately correct and in 3 to 5 years it probably wont matter what user group they allocate the tags for cause you will have to go to northwest trek to even see a moose the Idaho side of the border in unit 2 is crumbling along with it.

Offline X-Force

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2018, 09:25:22 AM »
The issue we have in this state and many other states is we have effectively cut off our youth from having any real chance of drawing any of these tags in their lifetime. They are so behind the rest of us on points that they will never catch up. These youth cow tags are a unique opportunity for a few kids to have a special hunt for a special animal. If it's truly for preservation of the species then why are we hunting any of them at all right now?  To make the statement that if kids can't go moose hunting they'll quit hunting anyways is a fairly shallow thought. The reason we will lose youth is lack of success at all. This is a very difficult state for youth to be successful in so having some permit opportunities outside of the norm is a great way for a handful of them to find some success afield.

I agree with Karl in as much as this:  If we are going to cut cow tags because moose are below carrying capacity, we should start with cutting tags for adults first.
Unfortunately, working the numbers, it appears that only about 1700 kids put in for 18 youth cow tags.  At least 7,000 adults are putting in for 33 cow tags.  Adults pay $7.10 for an application.  Kids pay $3.80.  That means the state is making just under $50,000 in non-refundable application fees on the adult applications, and only about $6,500 on youth apps.  That's probably why they are talking about cutting youth tags first.  Sad, but probably factual.

Whenever WDFW does something that I think I don't understand, I always ask myself: "How does this affect their revenue stream?"...

...and I usually find my answer pretty quickly  :(

Its not revenue though you make a pretty compelling argument for that being the case. There is no such thing as "adult tags" everyone can put in for antlerless tags. Having more permits for a subgroup of hunters than are available to the general population is unproductive for the entire group. That is what would of happened had WDFW kept the youth permits at the same level. They had to reduce tags somewhere and WDFW chose to reduce youth cow permits to a level inline with other subgroups.

Master Hunter any moose permits went from 10 to 0 and no one is complaining about that?

Youth moose and sheep opportunities are so limited that this reduction will in no way be detrimental to the future of hunting or to an individual child's enjoyment of the woods.

If people want to really change draw odds for the better and to improve hunter/youth recruitment for permit applications do some math and have WDFW employ Idaho's system... or even more strict only one species (deer or elk) and dramatically increase odds.

This is all coming from a guy with 2 girls and who has been buying points for them since they were born.
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Offline Sitka_Blacktail

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2018, 09:32:17 AM »
Increasing the herd means more tags for everyone.
A man who fears suffering is already suffering from what he fears. ~ Michel de Montaigne

Offline Karl Blanchard

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2018, 09:39:52 AM »
Increasing the herd means more tags for everyone.
that's why there shouldn't be any tags.  If it's really that dire of a situation then there needs to be a moratorium for a few years.
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Offline bearpaw

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2018, 09:47:17 AM »
Increasing the herd means more tags for everyone.
that's why there shouldn't be any tags.  If it's really that dire of a situation then there needs to be a moratorium for a few years.

I don't think it hurts to harvest bulls, unless cows weren't being bred, we aren't at that point with the bulls!
Do the math on taking out 10 cows a year and their reproductive potential over a course of 10 years, I know it isn't all that simple, but they conveys the reasoning for saving cows when a herd needs to grow.
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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2018, 09:50:13 AM »
The issue we have in this state and many other states is we have effectively cut off our youth from having any real chance of drawing any of these tags in their lifetime. They are so behind the rest of us on points that they will never catch up.

 I would think attrition will help today's kids soon enough, the average age of Washington state hunters has to be increasing yearly.
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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2018, 09:57:54 AM »
I guess my problem is why not reduce these tags the past few years ,instead of cutting it completely.I just don't like idea of make as much money as we can,then oops populations in trouble let's cut it type attitude.

I do agree revenue ,selling tags does play a part in management when it should not ,herd health,herd populations should be a concern every year not every three years. :twocents:
Two birds in the Bush is always better than one in the hand-that way you can always go to the Bush and hunt another day .conservation=Better hunting.
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Offline Ridgeratt

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2018, 10:06:30 AM »
Increasing the herd means more tags for everyone.
that's why there shouldn't be any tags.  If it's really that dire of a situation then there needs to be a moratorium for a few years.

I wonder if they made the change to upfront the tag fee's it used to be that way. It appears that other states require that to put in for the draws they have as well. And some of those are a lot more funds.

But I have been in favor of this since the start.    :tup:

Offline bearpaw

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2018, 10:08:10 AM »
Increasing the herd means more tags for everyone.
that's why there shouldn't be any tags.  If it's really that dire of a situation then there needs to be a moratorium for a few years.

I wonder if they made the change to upfront the tag fee's it used to be that way. It appears that other states require that to put in for the draws they have as well. And some of those are a lot more funds.

I doubt they would do that, the more who apply the more they make! Which explains why we have so many categories to draw for!
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Offline Ridgeratt

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2018, 10:09:50 AM »
Sadly I know that!!!  :yeah:

Offline goosehunter12

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2018, 11:20:09 AM »
I Agree, this is not right for our youth, I have know 2 kids that have drawn in the last 5 years and it was the highlight of their fall, told my 11 year old this and he also agreed it isn't right.  Below is the comment I submitted, had to shorten it a bit because you are only allowed 1,000 characters max


As a parent of youth hunters we do not need to loose any opportunities for our youth.  Last summer when the first surveys came out a question on balancing the antlerless tags between all the user groups.  What is currently being proposed is not balanced at all and only hurts our youth hunters.  In 2017 there where the following number of applicants per group, antlerless 8,383, 65 and over 1,478, disabled 863, youth 1,838.  Youth make up almost 15% of the total applicants, more than the 65 and over and disabled groups.  So why was the youth group so drastically reduced to only 1 tag if the intent was balance the tags between all the user groups?  It appears the total antlerless tags was reduced from 58 in 2017 to a proposed number of 42 in 2018 (assuming the 74 tags in one area was a typo and should be 4).  So the youth will only be getting around 2% of the total tags, I feel this should be more balance and they should get at least 15% of the tags or even a few more.



Thanks, Jeff


Offline Pathfinder101

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2018, 12:14:49 PM »
I haven't seen the proposal.  How much are they planning to cut regular moose cow tags?
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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2018, 12:19:58 PM »
I haven't seen the proposal.  How much are they planning to cut regular moose cow tags?

I count 32 in the regular antlerless category last year. For this year it looks like either 33 or 36, depending on what the actual number is for the one hunt that shows 74 tags, an obvious typo. I assume it should be either 7, or 4.

https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/regulations/seasonsetting/2018-2020/wac/220-415-070.pdf

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2018, 12:44:45 PM »
IMHO, not allowing a youth the opportunity to shoot a moose isn't going to discouraged anyone from becoming a life long hunter.  Rarely is the harvest of an animal the reason that kids take to woods in the first place.  The opportunity to hunt a moose, goat or sheep or any other difficult to draw tag, I see as the apex of one's time in the woods. Years of hard work and attrition getting paid off in a hunt of a lifetime. 

Offline benhuntin

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2018, 12:56:32 PM »
This youth argument has been on here before. You are either for youth special draws or basically completely against it. As seen again on this thread.


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Offline benhuntin

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Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2018, 01:01:00 PM »
I haven't seen the proposal.  How much are they planning to cut regular moose cow tags?
68 available cow tags last year. Looks to be 40-45 this year.


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Offline bearpaw

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2018, 01:08:05 PM »
This youth argument has been on here before. You are either for youth special draws or basically completely against it. As seen again on this thread.


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That's not entirely accurate, for example, I'm totally for allowing youth extra opportunity as long as herds can support the impact. When herds are down I think all or most antlerless harvest should be stopped until herds recover. A good example, I thought antlerless deer harvest should be reduced in NE WA after we had the big blue tongue die off, they did and we saved a lot of does. We are two years away from that and seeing more does, I agreed with the WDFW's proposal this year to increase antlerless harvest somewhat. In a year or two given reasonable winters I bet we can get back to season long youth/disabled/senior antlerless and offering more doe permits to all other hunters in each unit unless predation seems to be preventing a recovery.
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Offline KFhunter

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2018, 01:18:58 PM »
youth went from 18 tags down to 1     :chuckle:

The ONLY reason to leave 1 tag on the table is for the uninformed people to buy into the draw.

People who've been putting in for it will continue instead of going to put in for it, can't find it, then get all bent they couldn't put in for their kids' youth tag not knowing there's only 1 tag     :lol4:




are we seriously squabbling over these scraps?  The joke is on us (those that put in for it anyways)

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2018, 01:24:28 PM »
This youth argument has been on here before. You are either for youth special draws or basically completely against it. As seen again on this thread.


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That's not entirely accurate, for example, I'm totally for allowing youth extra opportunity as long as herds can support the impact. When herds are down I think all or most antlerless harvest should be stopped until herds recover. A good example, I thought antlerless deer harvest should be reduced in NE WA after we had the big blue tongue die off, they did and we saved a lot of does. We are two years away from that and seeing more does, I agreed with the WDFW's proposal this year to increase antlerless harvest somewhat. In a year or two given reasonable winters I bet we can get back to season long youth/disabled/senior antlerless and offering more doe permits to all other hunters in each unit unless predation seems to be preventing a recovery.
So you agree that the youth tags should be cut by 95%. And the general by only a few. Youth took the brunt of this cut. I have one youth left and none have ever drawn a Moose tag (all aged out with 8-9 points each). Everyone on here that is saying youth donít need to hunt Moose should go on a youth Moose hunt and see if itís not a great experience for a young hunter.  As most people on here no I moose hunt a little bit. Some of my best hunts are with youth and disabled hunters that are just trying to fill a cow tag. Not the trophy hunter that is looking for the next state record.  All this being said we all need to stop killing cows for a few years or Moose in Washington will be a non huntable species.


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Offline benhuntin

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2018, 01:26:41 PM »
youth went from 18 tags down to 1     :chuckle:

The ONLY reason to leave 1 tag on the table is for the uninformed people to buy into the draw.

People who've been putting in for it will continue instead of going to put in for it, can't find it, then get all bent they couldn't put in for their kids' youth tag not knowing there's only 1 tag     :lol4:




are we seriously squabbling over these scraps?  The joke is on us (those that put in for it anyways)
Mine will not be putting in and itís his last year with nine points


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Offline bobcat

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2018, 01:33:37 PM »
youth went from 18 tags down to 1     :chuckle:

The ONLY reason to leave 1 tag on the table is for the uninformed people to buy into the draw.

People who've been putting in for it will continue instead of going to put in for it, can't find it, then get all bent they couldn't put in for their kids' youth tag not knowing there's only 1 tag     :lol4:




are we seriously squabbling over these scraps?  The joke is on us (those that put in for it anyways)

I agree it's a joke that there is only 1 youth moose tag, but I don't agree that only the uninformed will apply. I'll put my 12 year old daughter in for it even though odds of drawing are almost impossible. What choice do I have? She's got 9 points, for $3.30 I might as well donate the money for the very small chance that she might draw. I'll also put her in for the bull tags and the regular antlerless tags but for a few more dollars might as well try for the 1 youth tag as well.

I will be sending in comments and asking them to increase the youth tags though, and hopefully they will.

 

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Any feed back on leupold vx-3i lrp 8.5-25x50mm? by Magnum_Willys
[Yesterday at 10:36:48 PM]


Dog torn ACL's by DoubleJ
[Yesterday at 10:17:06 PM]


New to WA by Birdguy
[Yesterday at 10:12:52 PM]


6.5 Grendel to 1050 yards by Biggerhammer
[Yesterday at 10:10:27 PM]


WTS Carbide dies 9mm 41mag 357mag 454 casull by Reidus
[Yesterday at 10:05:11 PM]


I donít know why I am surprised by JimmyHoffa
[Yesterday at 09:53:34 PM]


COYOTE MADNESS 10 SIGN-UPS..... by Emptyhanded
[Yesterday at 09:22:16 PM]


2018 Youth Hunt Dates??? by bobcat
[Yesterday at 09:21:03 PM]


AR15 Accessories by 300winmag
[Yesterday at 09:07:42 PM]


Your favorite go too weapon for coyote hunting by 257WTBY
[Yesterday at 09:05:13 PM]


Happy Valentines Day by Turdle
[Yesterday at 08:37:38 PM]


Books by Hot Lunch
[Yesterday at 08:30:15 PM]


Fish and Game hat by Turdle
[Yesterday at 08:28:32 PM]


.204 or 22-250? by CAMPMEAT
[Yesterday at 08:22:00 PM]


Blacktail archery ? by JasonG
[Yesterday at 08:20:30 PM]


2 swim through traps $150 by klikboom
[Yesterday at 08:17:03 PM]


Rayonier permits? by Wetwoodshunter
[Yesterday at 08:11:52 PM]