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Author Topic: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags  (Read 2504 times)

Offline KFhunter

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2018, 01:36:37 PM »
Get used too it, this is just the beginning.   Moose tags are going to go down every cycle from here on out.


Moose are peaked dontcha know     :lol4:

Offline bobcat

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2018, 01:41:58 PM »
It's fine, I expect I'll be taking my daughters hunting in Idaho and Wyoming in the future, more than we'll be hunting in Washington.

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2018, 02:06:06 PM »
youth went from 18 tags down to 1     :chuckle:

The ONLY reason to leave 1 tag on the table is for the uninformed people to buy into the draw.

People who've been putting in for it will continue instead of going to put in for it, can't find it, then get all bent they couldn't put in for their kids' youth tag not knowing there's only 1 tag     :lol4:




are we seriously squabbling over these scraps?  The joke is on us (those that put in for it anyways)

I agree it's a joke that there is only 1 youth moose tag, but I don't agree that only the uninformed will apply. I'll put my 12 year old daughter in for it even though odds of drawing are almost impossible. What choice do I have? She's got 9 points, for $3.30 I might as well donate the money for the very small chance that she might draw. I'll also put her in for the bull tags and the regular antlerless tags but for a few more dollars might as well try for the 1 youth tag as well.

I will be sending in comments and asking them to increase the youth tags though, and hopefully they will.

At least you know the joke even as you stick out your chin for that $3.20 slap in the face, but hey, it's just a latte' right?  Doesn't hurt much.

Offline bobcat

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2018, 02:20:51 PM »
youth went from 18 tags down to 1     :chuckle:

The ONLY reason to leave 1 tag on the table is for the uninformed people to buy into the draw.

People who've been putting in for it will continue instead of going to put in for it, can't find it, then get all bent they couldn't put in for their kids' youth tag not knowing there's only 1 tag     :lol4:




are we seriously squabbling over these scraps?  The joke is on us (those that put in for it anyways)

I agree it's a joke that there is only 1 youth moose tag, but I don't agree that only the uninformed will apply. I'll put my 12 year old daughter in for it even though odds of drawing are almost impossible. What choice do I have? She's got 9 points, for $3.30 I might as well donate the money for the very small chance that she might draw. I'll also put her in for the bull tags and the regular antlerless tags but for a few more dollars might as well try for the 1 youth tag as well.

I will be sending in comments and asking them to increase the youth tags though, and hopefully they will.

At least you know the joke even as you stick out your chin for that $3.20 slap in the face, but hey, it's just a latte' right?  Doesn't hurt much.

Hey what the heck, some people spend money on lottery tickets, I'll spend my money on special hunt applications, even if the odds are only 1 in 1800.

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #54 on: January 26, 2018, 02:23:52 PM »
I just sent this comment in on the proposed moose permits:

Quote
I understand cow moose harvest needs to be reduced and I'm fine with that, but I'd like to see just a few more youth tags, rather than only 1. Last year there were 1,861 applicants for 18 youth antlerless moose tags. With only 1 tag for over 1800 applicants, you might as well just eliminate that category entirely. And maybe that's an option? I think it would be fair to do that if the points those kids have could be transferred over to the regular antlerless category.

One change I've asked for in the past, and will now again, is to make the antlerless moose tags once in a lifetime just like the bull moose tags. If someone gets the opportunity to hunt moose in Washington, I feel like one time is enough whether they hunted bulls or cows. Most people will NEVER draw a moose tag, any moose tag, so I think it's unfair that some people could possibly hunt moose more than once.

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2018, 02:29:54 PM »
I think oneís odds of getting a moose permit would be far better by purchasing $10 worth of the cryptocurrencies like Ripple, Ethereum, and Ripple. If one of them goes up 1,000 fold you have $10,000 to go towards a guided hunt. The odds of that happening are arguably better than getting a  youth permit that you can only get drawn for during a brief number of years.

 
Nature. It's cheaper than therapy.

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #56 on: January 26, 2018, 09:51:22 PM »
I drew the 2016 Mount Spokane North cow permit.  I made 4 scouting trips and spent 14 days afield and seen a total of 4 moose.  And I put a LOT of boot miles on all trips.  And glassed a million square miles probably.  I did get a moose but after a butt load of work.  My avatar shows my cow.  If I recall, there were 7 cow permits and 8 youth cow permits.  I have to admit that was way too many.  I am not in total agreement of eliminating all permits, but I would be an advocate of maybe 1 or 2 cow permits total in that area.  When I drew the permit I thought I'd see moose everywhere.  Not the case.  And, there are no wolves there, according to WDFW.

Actually there are wolves in that area.  I've seen them. 

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #57 on: January 26, 2018, 11:44:13 PM »
This youth argument has been on here before. You are either for youth special draws or basically completely against it. As seen again on this thread.


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That's not entirely accurate, for example, I'm totally for allowing youth extra opportunity as long as herds can support the impact. When herds are down I think all or most antlerless harvest should be stopped until herds recover. A good example, I thought antlerless deer harvest should be reduced in NE WA after we had the big blue tongue die off, they did and we saved a lot of does. We are two years away from that and seeing more does, I agreed with the WDFW's proposal this year to increase antlerless harvest somewhat. In a year or two given reasonable winters I bet we can get back to season long youth/disabled/senior antlerless and offering more doe permits to all other hunters in each unit unless predation seems to be preventing a recovery.
So you agree that the youth tags should be cut by 95%. And the general by only a few. Youth took the brunt of this cut. I have one youth left and none have ever drawn a Moose tag (all aged out with 8-9 points each). Everyone on here that is saying youth donít need to hunt Moose should go on a youth Moose hunt and see if itís not a great experience for a young hunter.  As most people on here no I moose hunt a little bit. Some of my best hunts are with youth and disabled hunters that are just trying to fill a cow tag. Not the trophy hunter that is looking for the next state record.  All this being said we all need to stop killing cows for a few years or Moose in Washington will be a non huntable species.


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YES, ALL COW TAGS SHOULD BE ELIMINATED IN MOST UNITS!
Give the youth some bull tags, I'm all for getting youth involved but not at the expense of the herd! Giving them bull tags will not impact the herd the same way that killing cows will.
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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #58 on: January 27, 2018, 03:00:00 AM »
Buglebrush, I was of course being in jest.  Sorry for any misunderstanding.  You are correct, there are most definitely wolves there. 

What I could not understand,  was there were 24 total moose permits in that area that year, if I recall.  Way too many. I know a lot of you are aware that the vast majority of the moose are concentrated in a very small percentage of the unit.  I was thrilled with the opportunity but I do agree that the cow permits should be OIL.
Look man, some times you just gotta roll the dice

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Offline bearpaw

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #59 on: January 27, 2018, 10:20:23 AM »
I drew the 2016 Mount Spokane North cow permit.  I made 4 scouting trips and spent 14 days afield and seen a total of 4 moose.  And I put a LOT of boot miles on all trips.  And glassed a million square miles probably.  I did get a moose but after a butt load of work.  My avatar shows my cow.  If I recall, there were 7 cow permits and 8 youth cow permits.  I have to admit that was way too many.  I am not in total agreement of eliminating all permits, but I would be an advocate of maybe 1 or 2 cow permits total in that area.  When I drew the permit I thought I'd see moose everywhere.  Not the case.  And, there are no wolves there, according to WDFW.

Actually there are wolves in that area.  I've seen them.

I've seen wolf tracks there too, but I think there was a study done close to there and most of the moose are dieing from ticks in that southern study area. There used to be enough moose in that unit to support the number of tags, it wasn't a problem, I would see 5 to 20 moose most days I hunted. But, now that numbers have really dropped I think we need to save the cows to have the best chance at rebuilding the herd. That is another one of the units that is really hurting compared to what used to exist there.
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Offline KFhunter

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #60 on: January 27, 2018, 10:23:16 AM »
If it's a small concentrated area we should be darting the cows with ivomec

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #61 on: January 27, 2018, 10:25:16 AM »
If it's a small concentrated area we should be darting the cows with ivomec

Have bio's determined that works?
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Offline KFhunter

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #62 on: January 27, 2018, 10:28:56 AM »
Ya, works on literally everything, even humans (not in the USA though)

They use ivomec treated corn to kill deer ticks off deer in heavily hit areas, I've never heard of being used on moose but it would work.  If they could bait moose with corn that would work too, but with moose I think darting might be the most effective


you can rub it on, inject it or ingest it.   the ticks would suck the blood and be poisoned and fall off 


You could even use a drone to dart the moose


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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #63 on: January 27, 2018, 10:59:06 AM »
Ya, works on literally everything, even humans (not in the USA though)

They use ivomec treated corn to kill deer ticks off deer in heavily hit areas, I've never heard of being used on moose but it would work.  If they could bait moose with corn that would work too, but with moose I think darting might be the most effective


you can rub it on, inject it or ingest it.   the ticks would suck the blood and be poisoned and fall off 


You could even use a drone to dart the moose


Interesting, sounds like if WDFW organized some volunteers we could save some moose. I would gladly volunteer for moose darting, I bet lots of other hunters would too! I wonder what would happen if the same moose got darted more than once? Overdose?
Americans are systematically advocating, legislating, and voting away each others rights. Support all user groups & quit losing opportunity!

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Offline KFhunter

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #64 on: January 27, 2018, 11:15:17 AM »
If you're curious

http://parasitipedia.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2344&Itemid=2996

Mechanism of Action of Ivermectin
As all macrocyclic lactones, ivermectin acts as agonist of the GABA (gamma-aminobutyric acid) neurotransmitter in nerve cells and also binds to glutamate-gated chloride channels in nerve and muscle cells of invertebrates. In both cases it blocks the transmission of neuronal signals of the parasites, which are paralyzed and expelled out of the body, or they starve. It also affects the reproduction of some parasites by diminishing oviposition or inducing an abnormal oogenesis.

In mammals the GABA receptors occur only in the central nervous system (CNS), i.e. in the brain and the spinal chord. But mammals have a so-called blood-brain barrier that prevents microscopic objects and large molecules to get into the brain. Consequently macrocyclic lactones are much less toxic to mammals than to parasites without such a barrier, which allows quite high safety margins for use on livestock and pets. A notable exception to this are dog breeds that carry the MDR-1 gene defect (see later).


check out swine  :o


Swine

Swine tolerate ivermectin very well.
Doses 10 to 50 times higher than the therapeutic dose of 0.3 mg/kg (single subcutaneous injection) caused no toxic symptoms.
A single subcutaneous injection of 30 mg/kg (100 times the therapeutic dose) causes lethargy, ataxia (uncoordinated movements), mydriasis (dilatation of the pupils) and tremor (uncoordinated trembling or shaking movements).
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 11:23:41 AM by KFhunter »

Offline KFhunter

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #65 on: January 27, 2018, 11:22:42 AM »
For deer


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8667385


Systemic treatment of white-tailed deer with ivermectin-medicated bait to control free-living populations of lone star ticks (Acari:Ixodidae).
Pound JM1, Miller JA, George JE, Oehler DD, Harmel DE.
Author information
Abstract
Whole-kernel corn was treated with 10 mg ivermectin per 0.45 kg corn and fed at rate of approximately .45 kg/deer per day to white-tailed deer confined in the treatment pasture, whereas deer in an adjacent control pasture received a similar ration of untreated corn. Treatments were dispensed from February through September of 1992 and 1993, and free-living populations of lone star ticks. Amblyomma americanum (L.), were monitored in both pastures using dry-ice traps to quantify nymphs and adults and flip-cloths to assay the relative abundance of larval masses. Control values that were calculated for all ticks collected in both pastures during 1993 showed 83.4% fewer adults, 92.4% fewer nymphs and 100.0% fewer larval masses in the treatment versus control pasture. Serum ivermectin concentrations in treated deer averaged 21.7 and 28.3 ppb during 1992 and 1993, respectively. These values compared favorably with the goal concentration of 30.0 ppb which was anticipated under ideal conditions. This study demonstrates that a freely consumed, systemically active acaricidal bait ingested by white-tailed deer under nearly wild conditions can significantly reduce the abundance of all stages of free-living long star ticks.

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #66 on: January 27, 2018, 11:33:23 AM »
This is talking about moose ticks prior to ivomec being on the market, but it's a facinating article about raising moose

https://www.usask.ca/wcvm/herdmed/specialstock/resources/Haigh%27s%20notes/Moose.pdf




Here it's talking about moose racing and how they almost always beat the best horses, it also says moose riding was outlawed because the RCMP couldn't catch the villains on a moose  :chuckle:

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #67 on: January 27, 2018, 12:07:04 PM »
Darting moose would be totally awesome!  Really should do that too.

Offline Pathfinder101

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #68 on: January 29, 2018, 05:20:41 PM »
I haven't seen the proposal.  How much are they planning to cut regular moose cow tags?

I count 32 in the regular antlerless category last year. For this year it looks like either 33 or 36, depending on what the actual number is for the one hunt that shows 74 tags, an obvious typo. I assume it should be either 7, or 4.

https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/regulations/seasonsetting/2018-2020/wac/220-415-070.pdf

Ok, so let me get this straight:
There were 18 youth tags, now there will be one.
There were 32 cow moose tags, there are still going to be at least 32.

Which begs the question:  Why didn't they just eliminate ALL the youth tags.  Why just leave the one?

Again... I ask myself "Why did WDFW do that.." and my answer has to be (again).  How does this affect their revenue stream?
You see, if they eliminate the youth tags altogether... then they lose out on the kids that will put in for them (lost revenue). 
And they left the regular cow tags the same.  Why would they do that?
Because they are making 10 times more money off that draw.

Tell me $$ isn't driving this.

For the record: I know the moose population is hurting up there... I've seen it.  I'm not saying that we shouldn't eliminate youth tags, but I think we should eliminate the same percentage of regular cow moose tags.   :twocents:
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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #69 on: January 29, 2018, 05:46:24 PM »
I haven't seen the proposal.  How much are they planning to cut regular moose cow tags?

I count 32 in the regular antlerless category last year. For this year it looks like either 33 or 36, depending on what the actual number is for the one hunt that shows 74 tags, an obvious typo. I assume it should be either 7, or 4.

https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/regulations/seasonsetting/2018-2020/wac/220-415-070.pdf

Ok, so let me get this straight:
There were 18 youth tags, now there will be one.
There were 32 cow moose tags, there are still going to be at least 32.

Which begs the question:  Why didn't they just eliminate ALL the youth tags.  Why just leave the one?

Again... I ask myself "Why did WDFW do that.." and my answer has to be (again).  How does this affect their revenue stream?
You see, if they eliminate the youth tags altogether... then they lose out on the kids that will put in for them (lost revenue). 
And they left the regular cow tags the same.  Why would they do that?
Because they are making 10 times more money off that draw.

Tell me $$ isn't driving this.

For the record: I know the moose population is hurting up there... I've seen it.  I'm not saying that we shouldn't eliminate youth tags, but I think we should eliminate the same percentage of regular cow moose tags.   :twocents:

Agree! 

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #70 on: January 29, 2018, 06:04:46 PM »
I haven't seen the proposal.  How much are they planning to cut regular moose cow tags?

I count 32 in the regular antlerless category last year. For this year it looks like either 33 or 36, depending on what the actual number is for the one hunt that shows 74 tags, an obvious typo. I assume it should be either 7, or 4.

https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/regulations/seasonsetting/2018-2020/wac/220-415-070.pdf

Ok, so let me get this straight:
There were 18 youth tags, now there will be one.
There were 32 cow moose tags, there are still going to be at least 32.

Which begs the question:  Why didn't they just eliminate ALL the youth tags.  Why just leave the one?

Again... I ask myself "Why did WDFW do that.." and my answer has to be (again).  How does this affect their revenue stream?
You see, if they eliminate the youth tags altogether... then they lose out on the kids that will put in for them (lost revenue). 
And they left the regular cow tags the same.  Why would they do that?
Because they are making 10 times more money off that draw.

Tell me $$ isn't driving this.

For the record: I know the moose population is hurting up there... I've seen it.  I'm not saying that we shouldn't eliminate youth tags, but I think we should eliminate the same percentage of regular cow moose tags.   :twocents:

Agree, and any decision WDFW makes seems to be driven by either money or politics not sound management / hunter opportunity. 

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #71 on: January 30, 2018, 11:35:59 AM »
I haven't seen the proposal.  How much are they planning to cut regular moose cow tags?

I count 32 in the regular antlerless category last year. For this year it looks like either 33 or 36, depending on what the actual number is for the one hunt that shows 74 tags, an obvious typo. I assume it should be either 7, or 4.

https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/regulations/seasonsetting/2018-2020/wac/220-415-070.pdf

Ok, so let me get this straight:
There were 18 youth tags, now there will be one.
There were 32 cow moose tags, there are still going to be at least 32.

Which begs the question:  Why didn't they just eliminate ALL the youth tags.  Why just leave the one?

Again... I ask myself "Why did WDFW do that.." and my answer has to be (again).  How does this affect their revenue stream?
You see, if they eliminate the youth tags altogether... then they lose out on the kids that will put in for them (lost revenue). 
And they left the regular cow tags the same.  Why would they do that?
Because they are making 10 times more money off that draw.

Tell me $$ isn't driving this.

For the record: I know the moose population is hurting up there... I've seen it.  I'm not saying that we shouldn't eliminate youth tags, but I think we should eliminate the same percentage of regular cow moose tags.   :twocents:

Agree!

 :yeah: agree x3
Americans are systematically advocating, legislating, and voting away each others rights. Support all user groups & quit losing opportunity!

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Offline Gringo31

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #72 on: January 30, 2018, 02:41:04 PM »
Quote
Which begs the question:  Why didn't they just eliminate ALL the youth tags.  Why just leave the one?


To keep that category open for $$$$$ generated on folks willing to pay for the chance.
We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.
-Ronald Reagan

Offline Ridgerunner

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #73 on: January 30, 2018, 03:18:58 PM »
Ding, Ding, winner winner, chicken dinner! $$$$$$$

Offline Whitpirate

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Re: Wdfw Proposal for reduced youth antlerless moose tags
« Reply #74 on: January 31, 2018, 08:46:28 AM »
I've got to agree with benhuntin as well.  I have a 10 year old that I would LOVE to see draw a youth moose tag, but when I go home to visit family and friends (I grew up in Kettle Falls), the moose population just isn't there anymore.  My BIL works for the highway dept in Steven's Co.  He keeps an eye out for them, and has seen a drastic reduction in numbers.  2 of my buddies that are loggers (and have max points for moose) say the same thing.  We are all a little scared to draw a tag right now to be honest.  There are still bulls out there, but not nearly what there were 5 or 6 years ago.
The truth is that if the moose aren't at carrying capacity, you have to rebuild the population by not killing the cows.  Youth tags are cow tags.   :dunno:

Then replace it with a bull tag.  And all adult tags are ANY moose.  Not bull.

Cutting our nose off in spite of our face to continue to diminish youth opportunity.  My 13 year old knows of 2 other kids in his school that hunt.  2!  This is a school of 400-600 kids.  Sad testament to our times.

 

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