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Author Topic: 209 primers / accuracy?  (Read 3487 times)

Offline Buck86

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209 primers / accuracy?
« on: February 11, 2018, 07:49:52 PM »
First off I am just curious if anyone has noticed any gained accuracy by using 209 primers?  I have tried them before as I set my knight up with a scope to use during modern deer season many years ago when I first got it.  All I can say is I have better accuracy with regular #11 caps than I did with 209 primers.  I am guessing that testing I did was about 10 years ago.  I remember back then reading that the 209 primers could cause your bullet to jump ahead of your powder charge and cause poor accuracy?  So does that or can that still happen?  I am a little hesitant of trying them again  just for that reason.  Although it seems like they are supposed to be the best way to ignite powder now?  Or at least most of the muzzleloaders are designed for those to be the ignition source.

Thank You Buck

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: 209 primers / accuracy?
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2018, 08:39:04 AM »
First off I am just curious if anyone has noticed any gained accuracy by using 209 primers?  I have tried them before as I set my knight up with a scope to use during modern deer season many years ago when I first got it.  All I can say is I have better accuracy with regular #11 caps than I did with 209 primers.

What you found is entirely possible! Especially when you add in the different possibilities that exist.  For many years on well know ML individual suggested that the pressure created by 209 primers would/could push the projectile and even some of the powder up the barrel before ignition of the powder.  Depending on the powder and the condition of the powder you are/were using it really could happen.   Moving the projectile off the powder could certainly effect POI.

Quote
I am guessing that testing I did was about 10 years ago.  I remember back then reading that the 209 primers could cause your bullet to jump ahead of your powder charge and cause poor accuracy?  So does that or can that still happen?

Today I think that is of far less concern, especially if you are using BH-209 which is a smokeless based powder with Potassium and Sulphur added to qualify as a BP sub.  Even T7 or real Swiss the problem would be less likely - EXCEPT - both of them can absorb moisture and slow ignition.  I think one of the real keys is to use the mildest 209 primer you can and still be confident of ignition.  That thought is still controlled by the design of the breech plug.

This is an old chart of the approximate pressures created by different primers...

Shotgun Primers

Winchester 209ML ........................221 f.p.s.
Winchester 209 Triple Seven ML......244 f.p.s.
Remington 209 Kleanbore ML .........318 f.p.s.
Std. Winchester No. W209A ...........336 f.p.s.
Remington STS.............................338 f.p.s.
Std. Remington No. 209 ................341 f.p.s.
Cheddite No. 209 .........................347 f.p.s.
CCI 209M.....................................379 f.p.s.
Federal No. 209A ..........................381 f.p.s.

Rifle/Pistol Primers

Winchester WSP "Small Pistol" ….......116 f.p.s.
Winchester WSR "Small Rifle" ..........143 f.p.s

I normally use a W209 in most of my Knights - I have made the shift to the W209 because I can not get the old Remington 209-4 (410 shotgun primer) any longer.

With the Lehigh/Knight or Lehigh breech plug I have never had a problem shooting even BH with the shotgun primers designed for Muzzleloaders.  BUT! I have tried them in sub-zero weather with BH - with T7 not a problem.

Quote
I am a little hesitant of trying them again  just for that reason.  Although it seems like they are supposed to be the best way to ignite powder now?  Or at least most of the muzzleloaders are designed for those to be the ignition source.

Thank You Buck

Buck what rifle are you shooting and which powder might you be using?
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline Buck86

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Re: 209 primers / accuracy?
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2018, 07:06:51 PM »
I still have my Knight Bighorn(thinking of upgrading to the disc).  And that is the rifle that I tried the 209 primers with.  I also believe at that time I tried Pyrodex RS, and Pyrodex pellets.  I don't believe that the T7 was invented yet or at least very new if out in the market,  I used the plastic jackets.  I may have also had a problem with projectiles.  At that time there weren't a lot of options and any sabot options I tried to use would have been lead based.  Keep in mind I was trying to set it up to use in muzz season in WA but also use during modern deer season.  I went to #11 mag caps and accuracy was good.  209 primers, not so good? 

Thanks Buck

Offline Buck86

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Re: 209 primers / accuracy?
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2018, 08:57:54 PM »
I guess I didn't fully answer the question.  I at this point will be using my knight bighorn.  And if I do try 209 primers I will use T-7 powder.  I am still wondering about the bullet jump issue or whatever may or may not have been going on with my time of trying 209 primers. 

Thanks Buck

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: 209 primers / accuracy?
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2018, 07:51:34 AM »
I guess I didn't fully answer the question.  I at this point will be using my knight bighorn.

As you already know the Bighorn is fully capable of shooting 209's.  I am not sure which conversion you have but I would strongly recommend that you use the FPJ version (with red plastic jackets) versus NFPJ (bare primer).  There is a real safety concern with the bare primer version and the open breech with some loads.

Quote
And if I do try 209 primers I will use T-7 powder.  I am still wondering about the bullet jump issue

There should not be any issues with the bullet being pushed off the powder if you are using a mild primer.  I would recommend a Winchester W209 or even either the Winchester or Remington primers designed for black powder.  I would and do use the W209 basically because of costs.

It is my belief that the only reason you may get the bullet jump phenom.... would be if the powder has degraded and/or is damp and fails to ignite immediately.  I use T7 almost exclusively and really have never had that problem, but I do take precautions to protect the load.  I use muzzle mitts and protect the breech when the weather dictates.

Quote
or whatever may or may not have been going on with my time of trying 209 primers. 

Thanks Buck

Are you on the 'Wet' side of Washington?  Humidity can get get to T7.  Make sure you keep the bottle closed and the lid tight when storing the powder.  Here I have never really had a problem with moisture and T7.  T7 is not as hydroscopic as the Pyro's and does have a little bit of protection when it comes to mosisture...

I have done several experiments with T7 and the weather. Which has shown me that it can be very reliable.

You might take a look through this thread about weather and the possible effects on powder...

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,224270.0.html

Hope this helps a little bit with your concerns...




Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline Buck86

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Re: 209 primers / accuracy?
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2018, 03:25:55 PM »
Thanks Sabotloader.  Yes I do know the bighorn is capable of using the 209's.  and that is the conversion I have the red plastic jacket.  When I look back to when I tried them I had several things going on.  First off the powder I used was pyrodex select and the new at the time pyrodex pellets(I still don't think T-7 of any sort was invented yet?).  Along with fact I was trying to use lead saboted projectiles and 150 grn powder charges.  As I sit now with my current set up I think I will stick with the #11 caps as I have that dialed in with the bighorn.  Now once I know for sure if WA is going to allow the 209 ignition (it appears that is a go?) then at that time I will venture into looking into a new muzz.  Which I have discussed, and talked to you about.  Oh an yes I live and hunt and shoot on the wet side of the state!  I do keep the powder stored in the original container I even try to keep the little foam cover that comes with the can of powder. 

Thanks Buck

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: 209 primers / accuracy?
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2018, 04:43:26 PM »
Thanks Sabotloader.  Yes I do know the bighorn is capable of using the 209's.  and that is the conversion I have the red plastic jacket.  When I look back to when I tried them I had several things going on.  First off the powder I used was pyrodex select and the new at the time pyrodex pellets(I still don't think T-7 of any sort was invented yet?).  Along with fact I was trying to use lead saboted projectiles and 150 grn powder charges.

My first reaction is OOOP's to the 150 grain charge although the rifle is perfectly capable of burning...  Part of the problem may have been that the red plastic jackets do expand on the nipple post and allow pressure to escape - that escape is not always the same so you do get different velocities.  Today with a sabot things could be different. 

Quote
As I sit now with my current set up I think I will stick with the #11 caps as I have that dialed in with the bighorn.  Now once I know for sure if WA is going to allow the 209 ignition (it appears that is a go?) then at that time I will venture into looking into a new muzz.  Which I have discussed, and talked to you about.  Oh an yes I live and hunt and shoot on the wet side of the state!  I do keep the powder stored in the original container I even try to keep the little foam cover that comes with the can of powder. 

Same here with powder storage.... and I would totally agree with your thought about just staying with the #11's.  Along time ago I really felt I needed 209 ignition with my open breech ML's.  Today they are back to #11's - if we do our part there is no real advantage to the 209 other maybe easier to handle.


Thanks Buck

I think Washington State is far more progressive with their ML regulations than any of the others PacNorWest States and I also know that doesn't set well with everybody.  Somebody in the past worked very hard to establish a ML season and at the time it was meant to be Traditional Primitive - but today the Wildlife/Fish & Game officials have found that a ML hunt is far more beneficial in game management and revenue generation.  This is a universal theme across many States in the US. 

Anyway I guess I feel that Washington will allow 209 - guess we will know in a few days...

Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline carpsniperg2

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Re: 209 primers / accuracy?
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2018, 06:11:49 PM »
Hey sabot do you know the fps on the Remington muzzle loader setup? I think they use s Remington large rifle primer?
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Offline Sabotloader

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Re: 209 primers / accuracy?
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2018, 06:58:25 PM »
Hey sabot do you know the fps on the Remington muzzle loader setup? I think they use s Remington large rifle primer?

The new Remington 700 UM does use a LRMP ignition system.  You will insert a large rifle magnum primer in a shell casing and insert that into the breech plug.

follow this link for a bunch of information...

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=remington+700+muzzleloader&view=detail&mid=63F9F5E577994A3AD41663F9F5E577994A3AD416&FORM=VIRE

I have never really felt that I needed a ML capable of shooting 200 grains of powder and I really do not like shooting pellets so I have never really looked at it or had an interest in it - so I really can not tell you a lot about one..

To tell you the truth if I were looking for a ML in this class I would really go with the Copper Model 22 Muzzleloader






« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 09:10:03 PM by Sabotloader »
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

 


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