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Author Topic: Carrying Concealed Weapons on National Forest Land  (Read 3715 times)

Offline bobcat

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Carrying Concealed Weapons on National Forest Land
« on: July 15, 2010, 10:25:58 PM »
There is a thread on another site in which somebody is saying that it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon without a CWP while recreating on National Forest lands, specifically the Gifford Pinchot National Forest. Quoted is this from the Gifford Pinchot website:

Quote
Firearms
•It is legal to openly carry a firearm in most areas of most National Forests. It can be an issue if a weapon is carried in a concealed manner in which case the wearer/owner needs to have a legitimate concealed weapon permit for that privilege. It is important you know what is the requirement for the area you are using since any one of the circumstances noted above may apply.

It is unlawful to discharge a firearm, air rifle, or gas gun or other implement capable of taking human life, causing injury, or damaging property as follows:

(1) In or within 150 yards of a residence, building, campsite, developed recreation site or occupied area, or,
(2) Across or on a National Forest System road or a body of water adjacent thereto, or in any manner or place whereby a person or property is exposed to injury or damage as a result in such discharge, or,
(3) Into or within any cave.

The National Parks Service (Department of Interior) has much stricter regulations and most National Parks do not allow firearms, visitors should check with the National Park they plan to visit for more information.

He says he has also talked to rangers and they have said the same thing. The way I read it, I don't think it's saying a person cannot exercise one's right to carry concealed while recreating in Washington State. I think it's just a general statement, and it would depend on what state you are in, while on National Forest land. If the rangers said it was the case all that means is that they do no know about the exception that allows hunters, hikers, campers, etc. to carry concealed weapons without a CWP. What do you guys think?

Offline bigtex

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Re: Carrying Concealed Weapons on National Forest
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2010, 10:58:03 PM »
Federal jurisdiction can be a difficult one. There is exclusive jurisdiction and proprietary jurisdiction.

Basically exclusive jurisdiction is areas like military bases where basically the feds are the law and there is no local/state law enforcement or state/local laws, only federal. Most National Parks are also exclusive jurisdiction. Mt Rainier and Olympic are exclusive. Little known fact is in these exclusive national parks outside agencies must be asked by the park in to patrol/assist, simply because the national park service has their own rangers that do law enforcement and medical duties. WDFW, WSP and the county sheriff have no authority/powers in Mt. Rainier or Olympic, unless of course they are requested to assist the national park rangers. Either way a WDFW, WSP, or deputy can’t write you a state ticket in Rainier or Olympic. The only time they are called in are in needs of man power or if they are dealing with something that is better handled by the outside agency, they usually ask for help from WDFW in poaching, but the case is made by park ranger. Because of the exclusive jurisdiction they are able to make their own laws, such as the law against firearms in national parks.

Proprietary jurisdiction is basically the opposite, under proprietary they basically say any law enforcement agency can come and go as they please, and they (the fed agency) adopts state laws. So RCW’s are not used in Mt. Rainier, but are used on proprietary jurisdiction lands, which National Forests are. Interesting fact is, North Cascades National Park is actually under proprietary jurisdiction, so WSP, WDFW and the counties go patrol there just as they would anywhere else.

So if you’re in Mt Rainier Park and call 911 you’re going to get a ranger to respond. In any national forest you will get a county deputy or a USFS LEO if they are in the area.

So basically state laws are the law in National Forests, and for the most part federal law is the law in National Parks. Also, National Forest “rangers” are not law enforcement officers, for the most part they are summer hired help or work at the ranger station and have no law enforcement powers. USFS Law Enforcement Officers are the patrol officers and are law enforcement. So it would not surprise me that a USFS “ranger” told somebody something that was wrong.

Offline bigtex

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Re: Carrying Concealed Weapons on National Forest Land
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2010, 11:01:44 PM »
The way I read it, I don't think it's saying a person cannot exercise one's right to carry concealed while recreating in Washington State. I think it's just a general statement, and it would depend on what state you are in, while on National Forest land.

That's exactly what it says. What might be legal here in WA might be illegal in NY. The USFS has a lot of rules which basically say "follow the state law". So if your legal outside the forest in WA, you are legal in the forest in WA.

Offline JackOfAllTrades

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Re: Carrying Concealed Weapons on National Forest Land
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2010, 11:05:36 PM »
Quote
So basically state laws are the law in National Forests, and for the most part federal law is the law in National Parks.
  And this it exactly how I've understood the verbage for many many years.

It must suck to live in California and other states where there is no permit to carry concealed available at all.

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Offline wapiti hunter2

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Re: Carrying Concealed Weapons on National Forest Land
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2010, 08:33:04 AM »
Jack.  California is a May issue state. and does have open carry laws in unincoorperated areas like Nat. forests. and open BLM land.  It isn't as easy to get a CWP in Cal. as some states but it can be done.

Offline runamuk

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Re: Carrying Concealed Weapons on National Forest Land
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2010, 08:39:35 AM »
Jack.  California is a May issue state. and does have open carry laws in unincoorperated areas like Nat. forests. and open BLM land.  It isn't as easy to get a CWP in Cal. as some states but it can be done.

my question would be does california have an reciprocal agreement with another state that might be easier to get a concealed carry in?
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Offline JackOfAllTrades

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Re: Carrying Concealed Weapons on National Forest Land
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2010, 09:03:19 AM »
You won't ever see the Peoples Socialist Republic of Caliphornia on this list.

http://www.atg.wa.gov/ConcealedWeapons/Reciprocity.aspx

-Steve
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Colt's, Ruger's, Dan Wesson, & Kimber are my friends!
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Offline chrisb

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Re: Carrying Concealed Weapons on National Forest Land
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2010, 09:26:31 AM »
Jack.  California is a May issue state. and does have open carry laws in unincoorperated areas like Nat. forests. and open BLM land.  It isn't as easy to get a CWP in Cal. as some states but it can be done.

I used to live in Ca and looked into getting a CWP there. I was basically told that since i could not prove i needed it for my job, or there was an imminent threat on my life that i couldn't get one. What really pissed me off about this is i was looking around in the gun shop one day and this chick who looked like a tweaked out stripper is in there trying to find a holster (where she would put it i don't know b/c she wasn't wearing much at all) for her new;y acquired CWP. I asked how she got it and found out it was b/c she had an ex boyfriend getting released from prison. So basically thats what it takes to get one in CA to my understanding.

Offline runamuk

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Re: Carrying Concealed Weapons on National Forest Land
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2010, 09:26:40 AM »
You won't ever see the Peoples Socialist Republic of Caliphornia on this list.

http://www.atg.wa.gov/ConcealedWeapons/Reciprocity.aspx

-Steve


as I suspected ;)
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Online Alchase

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Re: Carrying Concealed Weapons on National Forest Land
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2010, 11:56:03 AM »
Jack.  California is a May issue state. and does have open carry laws in unincoorperated areas like Nat. forests. and open BLM land.  It isn't as easy to get a CWP in Cal. as some states but it can be done.

I used to live in Ca and looked into getting a CWP there. I was basically told that since i could not prove i needed it for my job, or there was an imminent threat on my life that i couldn't get one. What really pissed me off about this is i was looking around in the gun shop one day and this chick who looked like a tweaked out stripper is in there trying to find a holster (where she would put it i don't know b/c she wasn't wearing much at all) for her new;y acquired CWP. I asked how she got it and found out it was b/c she had an ex boyfriend getting released from prison. So basically thats what it takes to get one in CA to my understanding.

Soooo...that is California, play their game right back at them, tell them "your" boyfriend was getting released from prison,  :yike:
 :chuckle:
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Offline wapiti hunter2

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Re: Carrying Concealed Weapons on National Forest Land
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2010, 12:12:52 PM »

Offline Alpine Mojo

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Re: Carrying Concealed Weapons on National Forest Land
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2010, 07:37:56 PM »
tell them "your" boyfriend was getting released from prison,  :yike:

That probably wouldn't be anything out of the ordinary in that state.  Just don't do it in downtown San Fran, they might not accept cash to cover the "service fee"
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Re: Carrying Concealed Weapons on National Forest
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2010, 09:43:51 PM »
Federal jurisdiction can be a difficult one. There is exclusive jurisdiction and proprietary jurisdiction.

Basically exclusive jurisdiction is areas like military bases where basically the feds are the law and there is no local/state law enforcement or state/local laws, only federal. Most National Parks are also exclusive jurisdiction. Mt Rainier and Olympic are exclusive. Little known fact is in these exclusive national parks outside agencies must be asked by the park in to patrol/assist, simply because the national park service has their own rangers that do law enforcement and medical duties. WDFW, WSP and the county sheriff have no authority/powers in Mt. Rainier or Olympic, unless of course they are requested to assist the national park rangers. Either way a WDFW, WSP, or deputy can’t write you a state ticket in Rainier or Olympic. The only time they are called in are in needs of man power or if they are dealing with something that is better handled by the outside agency, they usually ask for help from WDFW in poaching, but the case is made by park ranger. Because of the exclusive jurisdiction they are able to make their own laws, such as the law against firearms in national parks.

Proprietary jurisdiction is basically the opposite, under proprietary they basically say any law enforcement agency can come and go as they please, and they (the fed agency) adopts state laws. So RCW’s are not used in Mt. Rainier, but are used on proprietary jurisdiction lands, which National Forests are. Interesting fact is, North Cascades National Park is actually under proprietary jurisdiction, so WSP, WDFW and the counties go patrol there just as they would anywhere else.

So if you’re in Mt Rainier Park and call 911 you’re going to get a ranger to respond. In any national forest you will get a county deputy or a USFS LEO if they are in the area.

So basically state laws are the law in National Forests, and for the most part federal law is the law in National Parks. Also, National Forest “rangers” are not law enforcement officers, for the most part they are summer hired help or work at the ranger station and have no law enforcement powers. USFS Law Enforcement Officers are the patrol officers and are law enforcement. So it would not surprise me that a USFS “ranger” told somebody something that was wrong.


I was once told by USFS "summer help", that I couldn't hunt in Mt. Baker, Snoqualmie National forest at all. She said that all firearms are illegal in the National forest. Much of the time, most people don't have a clue what the law actually is. Law enforcement included.
Semper Fi. USMC

 



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