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Author Topic: Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season  (Read 13200 times)

Offline Kowsrule30

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Re: Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season
« Reply #125 on: March 30, 2012, 03:13:52 PM »
If a bow hunter wants to come and hunt with their bow during my ML Elk season in the unit I hunt I will film it.... There will be about 6000-7000 hunters in this particular unit.... After opening am I'm gonna bet most encounters are way past most persons archery range... But I could be wrong.....   :dunno:  My shortest shot here on elk has been 52 yards.... On a dead run... Then 68 and up.... The 52 yarder came within 10 feet after the shot though...   :chuckle:   I couldn't wait any longer...

IMO it will screw the draw odds up quite a bit for quality.... Last year in a unit I recall there were 7 or 8 quality tags.... @ 700 apps... For archery in the same unit I think they gave out 24!!!! With less than 600 apps... Plus cow tags which you'll have to apply for now... (I think a bunch of gmu's are over the counter cow for archery) And am assuming you don't draw the tag you'll just use the ml anyways.... Or even if you do.... Why chance it....    :twocents:   

Offline washelkhunter

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Re: Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season
« Reply #126 on: March 31, 2012, 08:15:35 AM »
Dear Director Anderson and Commissioners.
 
As a long time resident Muzzleloader (ML) I am concerned about the proposed addition of archers into the ML deer and elk seasons as inserted into the proposed 2012-14 regulations. I am dismayed as to why this additional user group in a longtime traditionally ML equipment only hunt has been included and am seeking clarification and the removal of said user group. I do not believe that the ML coummunity has had ample notification or time
to express our concerns about this encroachment and erosion of our historical season. I can think of no valid reason whatsoever why archers should be given access to the ML season. I would appreciate a timely and personal response from all of you on this matter and look forward to discussing it with you.
 
Thank You



Good Morning All.  I just sent the above message to the director and commissioners of WDFW. If you agree with it please feel free to copy and send out
yourselves to:    director@dfw.wa.gov  and  commission@dfw.wa.gov

Offline Hindtit

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Re: Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season
« Reply #127 on: April 02, 2012, 09:33:52 PM »
So what is the difference between an archer hunting during the muzzy season with a muzzy tag and an archer with a multiseason tag hunting during the muzzy season?  Only difference is the weapon even though it is more primitive.  Not sure why people are butt hurt about someone hunting with a lesser weapon in "their" season.

Offline dreamingbig

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Re: Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season
« Reply #128 on: April 03, 2012, 08:29:58 AM »
I think they are afraid of competition and the impact on draw odds.  Who wouldn't complain if a good thing gets slightly less good?  All user groups are facing increased competition and participation by the increase in the multi-season permits.
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Offline Snapshot

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Re: Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season
« Reply #129 on: April 03, 2012, 08:37:43 AM »
I think they are afraid of competition and the impact on draw odds.  Who wouldn't complain if a good thing gets slightly less good?  All user groups are facing increased competition and participation by the increase in the multi-season permits.
The multi-tag withers hope that American society won't one day place hunting where Europeans put it decades (if not centuries) ago; into the hands of the wealthier citizens, to the detriment of those less well off...
I'd just like to remind everybody that it's about the hunting, not just the killing. In other words, it's about the total experience, the sport itself and the challenge involved. Bowhunting, done right, is a justifiable and honorable pursuit. Done for the wrong reasons, simply chalking up kills and seeking personal glory, it's taking away rather than giving back to a principled way of life that has to be experienced to be understood. G.StCharles

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Re: Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season
« Reply #130 on: April 03, 2012, 08:45:37 AM »
So what is the difference between an archer hunting during the muzzy season with a muzzy tag and an archer with a multiseason tag hunting during the muzzy season?  Only difference is the weapon even though it is more primitive.  Not sure why people are butt hurt about someone hunting with a lesser weapon in "their" season.

Modern bows are not less of a weapon and in many cases are more of a weapon. First and most important is the rate of fire. I could get off at least 5 or 6 arrows in the time it takes to reload a ML. Secondly, a well tuned bow can shoot as accurately as a ML up to 100 yards (don't start; I don't take 100 yard shots at living things). A bow is also quiet, so the opportunity for a second shot is more likely than with a ML.

A case could be made for traditional archery during ML season, but that would just create a rift (or another rift) between different groups of archers and we don't need that. Adding bows to ML season would also put more people in the woods during that season, leading to angst between ML hunters and bowmen, and we don't need that, either.
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Charles Fergus
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Offline TommyH

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Re: Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season
« Reply #131 on: April 03, 2012, 10:14:19 AM »
So what is the difference between an archer hunting during the muzzy season with a muzzy tag and an archer with a multiseason tag hunting during the muzzy season?  Only difference is the weapon even though it is more primitive.  Not sure why people are butt hurt about someone hunting with a lesser weapon in "their" season.

Modern bows are not less of a weapon and in many cases are more of a weapon. First and most important is the rate of fire. I could get off at least 5 or 6 arrows in the time it takes to reload a ML. Secondly, a well tuned bow can shoot as accurately as a ML up to 100 yards (don't start; I don't take 100 yard shots at living things). A bow is also quiet, so the opportunity for a second shot is more likely than with a ML.

A case could be made for traditional archery during ML season, but that would just create a rift (or another rift) between different groups of archers and we don't need that. Adding bows to ML season would also put more people in the woods during that season, leading to angst between ML hunters and bowmen, and we don't need that, either.

A modern bow is less of a weapon than a M.L. My sons DAISY BB gun could get off 4-5 shots before an archer could take another shot, does that make the BB gun more of a weapon? A M.L. can shoot at more than triple the distance of bow in most hunting situations.

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Re: Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season
« Reply #132 on: April 03, 2012, 10:39:21 AM »
So what is the difference between an archer hunting during the muzzy season with a muzzy tag and an archer with a multiseason tag hunting during the muzzy season?  Only difference is the weapon even though it is more primitive.  Not sure why people are butt hurt about someone hunting with a lesser weapon in "their" season.

Modern bows are not less of a weapon and in many cases are more of a weapon. First and most important is the rate of fire. I could get off at least 5 or 6 arrows in the time it takes to reload a ML. Secondly, a well tuned bow can shoot as accurately as a ML up to 100 yards (don't start; I don't take 100 yard shots at living things). A bow is also quiet, so the opportunity for a second shot is more likely than with a ML.

A case could be made for traditional archery during ML season, but that would just create a rift (or another rift) between different groups of archers and we don't need that. Adding bows to ML season would also put more people in the woods during that season, leading to angst between ML hunters and bowmen, and we don't need that, either.

A modern bow is less of a weapon than a M.L. My sons DAISY BB gun could get off 4-5 shots before an archer could take another shot, does that make the BB gun more of a weapon? A M.L. can shoot at more than triple the distance of bow in most hunting situations.

I'm giving you the reasoning behind why they're not allowed. BB guns are not allowed during any season. Bad analogy. I'm not defending the prohibited use, just reporting. Go get mad at the DFW, not me.
"One does not hunt in order to kill. On the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted." --Jose Ortega y Gasset
"Hunting has opened the earth to me and let me sense the rhythms and hierarchies of nature."
Charles Fergus
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Re: Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season
« Reply #133 on: April 03, 2012, 11:28:29 AM »
My question in all of this is...

1. do the bow hunters have a separate season that allows them more days in the woods hunting than does the ML season?

2. Can you use a ML during their bow season?

3. If they are allowed to hunt during the ML season and the bow season how many hunting days do they get versus the person that hunts ML only?

I do not know the regulations for Washington, but it seems to me they (bow hunters) would get many more days in the wood than does a ML hunter, unless a ML hunter can with a ML in the bow season...

Just asking
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Re: Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season
« Reply #134 on: April 03, 2012, 11:34:13 AM »
And here we go...
"One does not hunt in order to kill. On the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted." --Jose Ortega y Gasset
"Hunting has opened the earth to me and let me sense the rhythms and hierarchies of nature."
Charles Fergus
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Offline Bean Counter

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Re: Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season
« Reply #135 on: April 03, 2012, 11:40:00 AM »
Never was I more busy defending hunting opportunity than when I was not only working my full-time job but also raising up my two kids (now both in their twenties and living elsewhere), taking them places & being there for them. I was sleeping damn little largely because I didn't grow apathetic towards paying attention to what was going on in the world of hunting politics. I threw out that "head in the sand" remark because I've long observed  that most hunters are completely apathetic towards this sort of thing until they get bit in the butt. And even then most just complain about it after the fact. I commend that you've rolled your sleeves up and taken some action; and yet I won't be surprised if the response that comes back is something like, "The public comment period was run according to law and is closed on the matter."

:yeah: well said
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Re: Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season
« Reply #136 on: April 03, 2012, 11:51:13 AM »
Quote
My question in all of this is...

1. do the bow hunters have a separate season that allows them more days in the woods hunting than does the ML season?

2. Can you use a ML during their bow season?

3. If they are allowed to hunt during the ML season and the bow season how many hunting days do they get versus the person that hunts ML only?

I do not know the regulations for Washington, but it seems to me they (bow hunters) would get many more days in the wood than does a ML hunter, unless a ML hunter can with a ML in the bow season...

Just asking

Please read the regs. Here are the answers to your questions.

1: Bowhunters have a completely separate season as of right now. As far as days in the woods I believe that the current archery season is a bit longer.

2: No

3: The only way a hunter can hunt multiple seasons is with a multi season permit that is draw only. In that case the person could hunt an OTC season with the allowed weapons during said season. This would allow archers to hunt the muzzle loader season with a bow just like you can use a muzzle loader or bow during the "any weapon" season (rifle season). You cannot use a muzzle loader during archery because it is not considered a lesser weapon (this is where the argument occurs).

I hope this helps, this is really going to only apply to those with a multi season permit and a select few who decide to apply for muzzle loader permits and chose to hunt it with a bow (which I believe will be minimal).

Offline bobcat

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Re: Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season
« Reply #137 on: April 03, 2012, 11:53:09 AM »
My question in all of this is...

1. do the bow hunters have a separate season that allows them more days in the woods hunting than does the ML season?

2. Can you use a ML during their bow season?

3. If they are allowed to hunt during the ML season and the bow season how many hunting days do they get versus the person that hunts ML only?

I do not know the regulations for Washington, but it seems to me they (bow hunters) would get many more days in the wood than does a ML hunter, unless a ML hunter can with a ML in the bow season...

Just asking

In Washington we have archery tags, muzzleloder tags, and modern firearm tags. A hunter must choose only one for deer, and one for elk. So if a person has a muzzleloader tag, they can only hunt during the muzzleloader season. Some with an archery, those with an archery tag only hunt the archery season. The only thing that is changing here is that the person with the muzzleloader tag can now use his muzzleloader, OR his bow, during that muzzleloader season.


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Re: Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season
« Reply #138 on: April 03, 2012, 11:57:51 AM »
So the proposal was indeed finalized and adopted?
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Offline Snapshot

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Re: Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season
« Reply #139 on: April 03, 2012, 11:59:30 AM »
Nothing has been finalized yet. Decisions will be announced April 13-14.
I'd just like to remind everybody that it's about the hunting, not just the killing. In other words, it's about the total experience, the sport itself and the challenge involved. Bowhunting, done right, is a justifiable and honorable pursuit. Done for the wrong reasons, simply chalking up kills and seeking personal glory, it's taking away rather than giving back to a principled way of life that has to be experienced to be understood. G.StCharles

Offline Bean Counter

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Re: Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season
« Reply #140 on: April 03, 2012, 12:16:03 PM »
Thanks. I missed that amidst all the :boxin:

 :chuckle:
"We don't yet have a strategy to deal with ISIS"
"The ISIS army is a JV team"
"[health care] will not be provided to those who are here illegally"
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Re: Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season
« Reply #141 on: April 03, 2012, 02:07:18 PM »
My question in all of this is...

1. do the bow hunters have a separate season that allows them more days in the woods hunting than does the ML season?

2. Can you use a ML during their bow season?

3. If they are allowed to hunt during the ML season and the bow season how many hunting days do they get versus the person that hunts ML only?

I do not know the regulations for Washington, but it seems to me they (bow hunters) would get many more days in the wood than does a ML hunter, unless a ML hunter can with a ML in the bow season...

Just asking

In Washington we have archery tags, muzzleloder tags, and modern firearm tags. A hunter must choose only one for deer, and one for elk. So if a person has a muzzleloader tag, they can only hunt during the muzzleloader season. Some with an archery, those with an archery tag only hunt the archery season. The only thing that is changing here is that the person with the muzzleloader tag can now use his muzzleloader, OR his bow, during that muzzleloader season.

Sorry guys I am an Idaho hunter and not trying cause any problems, but if the highlighted sentence is correct, you are not really increasing the opportunity for any one hunter over the other or the number hunters that might be in the woods at one given time.  So if I read it correctly and it is correct, a person that opts for the archery tag can not then hunt the ML season, but a person that opts for a ML tag can hut with the weapon of choice, either ML or Archery???? 

Is that correct?
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Re: Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season
« Reply #142 on: April 03, 2012, 02:09:20 PM »
If this is adopted, yes. The one addition is that if someone has a multi-season tag but doesn't own a ML, they'd be able to use their bow for the ML part of the multi-season.
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Offline JimmyHoffa

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Re: Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season
« Reply #143 on: April 03, 2012, 02:58:16 PM »
you are not really increasing the opportunity for any one hunter over the other or the number hunters that might be in the woods at one given time. 

Time will tell on this.  The current method to hunting in washington is mostly 'pick a weapon' (unless you have multi-season).  This proposal would allow archers to 'pick a season', as archery gear is already allowed in archery ( :o) and in modern.  Muzzleloader hunters can hunt in muzzleloader or modern with their equipment, so they get two seasons to choose from like archers.  Under this proposal, archers could choose from three seasons.  Modern still gets one choice.
It MIGHT entice more archers into the season because of timing or GMU.  If enough move over, MIGHT even get a few more GMUs opened up.  Right now, muzzleloader (westside) tends to have a short (but nicely timed with the rut) season in the smallest number of GMUs.  The last few years from my experience in early muzzy westside is it was the most crowded I've seen of all the seasons/weapons.  I hear all kinds of stories about how horrible modern is, but just from my observation, early muzzy was probably 20 times (SWAG) more crowded....camps, trucks, bicycles, people...everywhere.  So, if it is already crowded..then how many additional people make it really feel too crowded.
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Offline bobcat

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Re: Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season
« Reply #144 on: April 03, 2012, 03:14:29 PM »
If I were going to hunt elk with a bow, and only with a bow, then there is no doubt in my mind, I would buy an archery tag. The early archery season is 13 days, muzzleloader is 7. The timing of the archery season is better (in my opinion). This year it's Sept 4-16, while muzzleloader is Oct 6-12. I'd rather hunt before the rut, than after the rut.

Then there is the fact that almost all of the very best elk units are open for archery, while the muzzleloader season only includes the mediocre to poor elk units.

And one last point, with an archery tag you get a late elk season, with muzzleloader, there are only a couple decent units on the westside for late season, and they are crowded, and there are virtually none open on the eastside of the state. The archery seasons include several of the best elk units on both sides of the state.




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Re: Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season
« Reply #145 on: April 03, 2012, 03:15:04 PM »
you are not really increasing the opportunity for any one hunter over the other or the number hunters that might be in the woods at one given time. 

Time will tell on this.  The current method to hunting in washington is mostly 'pick a weapon' (unless you have multi-season).  This proposal would allow archers to 'pick a season', as archery gear is already allowed in archery ( :o) and in modern.  Muzzleloader hunters can hunt in muzzleloader or modern with their equipment, so they get two seasons to choose from like archers.  Under this proposal, archers could choose from three seasons.  Modern still gets one choice.
It MIGHT entice more archers into the season because of timing or GMU.  If enough move over, MIGHT even get a few more GMUs opened up.  Right now, muzzleloader (westside) tends to have a short (but nicely timed with the rut) season in the smallest number of GMUs.  The last few years from my experience in early muzzy westside is it was the most crowded I've seen of all the seasons/weapons.  I hear all kinds of stories about how horrible modern is, but just from my observation, early muzzy was probably 20 times (SWAG) more crowded....camps, trucks, bicycles, people...everywhere.  So, if it is already crowded..then how many additional people make it really feel too crowded.

Thank you for the explanation - I think I now understand....
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Re: Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season
« Reply #146 on: April 03, 2012, 03:18:08 PM »

And one last point, with an archery tag you get a late elk season, with muzzleloader, there are only a couple decent units on the westside for late season, and they are crowded, and there are virtually none open on the eastside of the state.

They close most of the archery units for late season, too. There's very little to hunt, at least down here in the SW corner anyway. Late season for archery isn't very good. I don't want to give it away, but it's quite limited.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 03:41:16 PM by pianoman9701 »
"One does not hunt in order to kill. On the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted." --Jose Ortega y Gasset
"Hunting has opened the earth to me and let me sense the rhythms and hierarchies of nature."
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"You can run, but you'll just die tired." R. Kemp USMC Scout/Sniper

Offline bobcat

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Re: Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season
« Reply #147 on: April 03, 2012, 03:22:31 PM »
Late archery units:

Fall River, Bear River, Willapa Hills, Winston, Ryderwood.

If you can't find an elk in one of those units you're not looking hard enough.

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Re: Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season
« Reply #148 on: April 03, 2012, 03:31:05 PM »
OK, thanks BC.
"One does not hunt in order to kill. On the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted." --Jose Ortega y Gasset
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Offline dreamingbig

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Re: Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season
« Reply #149 on: April 04, 2012, 06:24:35 AM »
Then there is the fact that almost all of the very best elk units are open for archery, while the muzzleloader season only includes the mediocre to poor elk units.

I can think of a couple pretty good elk units (above mediocre) that are open to muzzleloader.
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