Good Cop Bad Cop - Open Carry Confrontation in Michigan

[JLS]

You wouldn't catch me walking downtown with a rifle. Having said that, cops will get away with what they can. Just because they ask you to do something doesn't mean you necessarily have to do it.

So in this instance are you saying the cop didn't have reasonable suspicion to detain the man and check his rifle for full auto capability?

Go after someone else, JLS. I bet you're a bully on the street, too. I'm not interested.

I asked you a question to clarify?  How is that being a bully?  Kind of sensitive aren't we, panties bunched?

[pianoman9701]

You wouldn't catch me walking downtown with a rifle. Having said that, cops will get away with what they can. Just because they ask you to do something doesn't mean you necessarily have to do it.

So in this instance are you saying the cop didn't have reasonable suspicion to detain the man and check his rifle for full auto capability?

Go after someone else, JLS. I bet you're a bully on the street, too. I'm not interested.

I asked you a question to clarify?  How is that being a bully?  Kind of sensitive aren't we, panties bunched?

Nope, I just know you and our past sparring and I'm not interested. Besides, last time, you said you'd seen all you needed to see to know everything about me. So, why even ask?

[JLS]

You wouldn't catch me walking downtown with a rifle. Having said that, cops will get away with what they can. Just because they ask you to do something doesn't mean you necessarily have to do it.

So in this instance are you saying the cop didn't have reasonable suspicion to detain the man and check his rifle for full auto capability?

Go after someone else, JLS. I bet you're a bully on the street, too. I'm not interested.

I asked you a question to clarify?  How is that being a bully?  Kind of sensitive aren't we, panties bunched?

Nope, I just know you and our past sparring and I'm not interested. Besides, last time, you said you'd seen all you needed to see to know everything about me. So, why even ask?

Curious as to what you were getting at, and naive enough to think that a simple question could warrant a simple answer. 

If I wanted to spar with you I would have gone after your statement that cops will get away with what they can.  I don't go to work each day assuming that every person is out to break the law, but if that floats your boat then so be it.

But, then again I'm just a bully on the streets AND the 'net

[RG]

How about good cop... good cop!!

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=589_1345502474

I watched the first video and then found this one.  I loved it!!

I've seen this one before, and this officer does an outstanding job of articulating his reasonable suspicion, and giving very clear commands. 

Food for thought, how do you think contact would have gone if the fellow being detained thought that he knew enough case law that he refused to allow the officer to check his weapon because of an "illegal search or seizure"?

This kid was kind of an idiot at first, talking about how it was a violation of Terry v. Ohio (it's not), and making a big deal of the contact being recorded.  Hopefully he learned something from it also.

What would  have happened if the interchange had gone wrong... well...  Worst case scenario both cop, both citizens, and a driver on the road all get killed.  I think the severity of the situation would really have depended on how the armed fella acted. 

If he kept backing up in circles, saying he did not consent, but making no move to grab his weapon, he could have gotten rushed and tackled.  Arrested for resisting a lawful search.  End result, just a couple bruises and scraped up knees and elbows.  A small black eye on his criminal record.

If he starts backing up, arguing about illegal searches, and getting hostile, then reaching for his gun, this dude could have easily been killed. 

Were I in this sittuation,  there is a good chance I would have acted like this guy.  Afraid I am going to go to jail and not wanting to submit to anything... in the end I would have looked foolish and the cop would have verified the safety of that street with me walking down it.

Cop did an outstanding job in this one.

Here's what puzzles me every time I see one of these videos....Why even open carry a gun around anyway, especially a rifle or shotgun that's guaranteed to cause a stir?  It seems to me the whole point is to try to attract as much attention as possible.  Sure it's legal but so is carrying a great big "Jesus Saves" sign around your neck and wearing your pants backward.  Both produce the same result, everybody notices you.  Carry it concealed then you don't cause a ripple in the pond everywhere you go and, in the event you come upon a crime in progress, the bad guy doesn't see your gun and shoot you before you figure out what is going on.  Just my opinion obviously, like I said, it's legal.

[Mudman]

You wouldn't catch me walking downtown with a rifle. Having said that, cops will get away with what they can. Just because they ask you to do something doesn't mean you necessarily have to do it.

So in this instance are you saying the cop didn't have reasonable suspicion to detain the man and check his rifle for full auto capability?

Go after someone else, JLS. I bet you're a bully on the street, too. I'm not interested.

I asked you a question to clarify?  How is that being a bully?  Kind of sensitive aren't we, panties bunched?

Nope, I just know you and our past sparring and I'm not interested. Besides, last time, you said you'd seen all you needed to see to know everything about me. So, why even ask?

Curious as to what you were getting at, and naive enough to think that a simple question could warrant a simple answer. 

If I wanted to spar with you I would have gone after your statement that cops will get away with what they can.  I don't go to work each day assuming that every person is out to break the law, but if that floats your boat then so be it.

But, then again I'm just a bully on the streets AND the 'net

Can anyone say God Complex?  I thought Doctors were the only ones, not LEO.

[BsB]

How about good cop... good cop!!

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=589_1345502474

I watched the first video and then found this one.  I loved it!!

So just because it could be a fully auto rifle, that's gives the cops reasonable suspicion to inspect the firearm? The officer even stated himself they are legal to own if you have the class 3 stamp. From what I understand the ATF is the only agency able to request that/need to show to? That would make it an illegal stop since it is legal to own such firearms and open carrying a firearm is not reason to be detained? Or have I miss interpreted what I've read? So what if it was a fully auto and he had a class 3 stamp, not illegal to walk down the street with it.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[JoeE]

How about good cop... good cop!!

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=589_1345502474

I watched the first video and then found this one.  I loved it!!

So just because it could be a fully auto rifle, that's gives the cops reasonable suspicion to inspect the firearm? The officer even stated himself they are legal to own if you have the class 3 stamp. From what I understand the ATF is the only agency able to request that/need to show to? That would make it an illegal stop since it is legal to own such firearms and open carrying a firearm is not reason to be detained? Or have I miss interpreted what I've read? So what if it was a fully auto and he had a class 3 stamp, not illegal to walk down the street with it.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

It doesn't matter if its a musket or a double barreled shotgun. The police can stop and ask him what he's doing walking around with a firearm. Hanging around outside of a bank with a ski mask on isn't illegal either, but it's not normal. Same as walking around suburbia with a long rifle on your back.

[BsB]

It doesn't matter if its a musket or a double barreled shotgun. The police can stop and ask him what he's doing walking around with a firearm. Hanging around outside of a bank with a ski mask on isn't illegal either, but it's not normal. Same as walking around suburbia with a long rifle on your back.

OK, but oc'ing a firearm is perfectly legal. He's not committing a crime, so there is no legal reason for him to be stopped. He wasn't suspected of committing a crime, only that the cop felt it could be a fully auto firearm which is still not illegal. Stopping a person simply because they are carrying a firearm is not justifiable cause to detain someone. It may not be normal, but it sure as hell ain't illegal. People don't know what normal is anymore. 120 years ago it was normal for people to ride horses and carry guns. What's different now? I guess firearms weren't black and scary back then.

What happened to being able to walk down the street free of unlawful search and seizure? That officer had no right to disarm that guy just to see if it was semi or full auto.  Let's treat everyone OC'ing as a criminal since they must be up to no good/suspicious looking. I'm not in the know on class 3 items so I was just looking for clarification.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[pianoman9701]

It's not illegal to stop and talk to someone. The person they stop and talk to doesn't have to be forthcoming, as was illustrated in the video. The police can ask him if they can follow him home and search his residence if they want. He's an idiot to say yes, but they can ask.

[JoeE]

Like Pianoman is saying, police can talk to anybody they want, but it's up to the person if they want to talk to the police. Something doesn't have to be illegal to be stopped by the police. Look up "Terry v Ohio". Something only needs to be reasonably suspicious in order for the police to stop and detain somebody. Walking down a dirt road with a rifle on your back is not suspicious, walking through downtown Seattle with a rifle on your back is suspicious.

What's different between the two? The guy walking down the dirt road is probably out hunting and the guy with the rifle in downtown Seattle is either trying to make one of these idiotic videos or maybe he's getting ready to walk into the Jewish Federation and start shooting (we all remember that, right?).

I bet if you had kids and some wack job was standing in front of their school with an AR 15 on his back you'd probably want the police to find out what his intent is right?

[Special T]

For once i would like to see a video about an OC person doing it right... Her is a story board of how some one could do an OC video right. Carry an AR over the shoulder  with a stick and sign down the barrel. It says something to the effect of "Ask me why I'm carrying a gun!" This individual would have a small handbill that had some basic info on the gun laws in the state, a local website detailing why gun rights are important. Shots of fellow citizens asking questions to an intelligent advocate are recorded. Even a polite interaction with less than polite Leos would be great.
A Right NOT used is LOST! Many in AZ worry about OC because of the new concealed carry laws. CC IS much better for MANY reasons that OC. That said I have had a few cold ones in NV with a couple of cowbows packing 6 shooters.... NO ONE thought 2x about it...
If people are not introduced to an idea, they are NOT likely to figure it out on their own. 

[Doc Sauce]

If only a class 3 is allowed to carry a full auto firearm, then it is illegal for a non class 3 holder to have one.  If that is the case, then i tis reasonable for the cop to ask to see the weapon in order to determine whether or not the law is being broken.  He doesn't know if it is or if it isn't, but it is reasonable to suspect that that firearm could be fulll auto...   I thought he said that in his explanation to the guy with the rifle....

[DBHAWTHORNE]

How about good cop... good cop!!

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=589_1345502474

I watched the first video and then found this one.  I loved it!!

These other LEOs need to take lessons from this cop... Great Job!

[Knocker of rocks]

If only a class 3 is allowed to carry a full auto firearm, then it is illegal for a non class 3 holder to have one.  If that is the case, then i tis reasonable for the cop to ask to see the weapon in order to determine whether or not the law is being broken.  He doesn't know if it is or if it isn't, but it is reasonable to suspect that that firearm could be fulll auto...   I thought he said that in his explanation to the guy with the rifle....

If a drivers license is required to drive a car, is it legal for the police to pull over a car just to see if you have a DL?

[DBHAWTHORNE]

If only a class 3 is allowed to carry a full auto firearm, then it is illegal for a non class 3 holder to have one.  If that is the case, then i tis reasonable for the cop to ask to see the weapon in order to determine whether or not the law is being broken.  He doesn't know if it is or if it isn't, but it is reasonable to suspect that that firearm could be fulll auto...   I thought he said that in his explanation to the guy with the rifle....

If a drivers license is required to drive a car, is it legal for the police to pull over a car just to see if you have a DL?

Driving a car does not create reasonable suspicion...if my 9 year old was driving the car that would be reasonable suspicion to check for a DL.