Whitetail population in NE corner

[Big10gauge]

Okay guys, Here’s my 2 cents on whitetail population in the NE corner of the state and I might get flamed on this BWTH, if any other members want to chime in that actually live and have hunted up there for at least 5 years please do, I would like to hear their take on this subject. I’ve heard several times on this forum of the increasing population and how multiple tags should be given out.  Where did the “increasing population” statement originate and why does everyone seem to think how healthy the WT population is in those units?  I’ve lived in and hunted that area since in the 60‘s and still currently own substantial property for hunting up there. I also am in contact with quite a few farmers and some of the largest cattle ranchers up there. Every single person that I know has said that the WT population has actually contracted in the last 5 or 6 yrs or so and I would agree with them. Where I used to see 20 or 30 deer on my place I’m lucky to see 10. Since then they have taken away hound hunting and/or baiting for bear and cougar (some permits now but not worth people keeping hounds) transient wolves now more inclined to stay, increased tribal hunting off the reservations.  More predators less deer.  There have also been several outbreaks of black tongue. Do you really think the Game Dept can actually even come close to accurately reporting the statistics of deer? Especially in the more remote areas? Does counting WT’s in a alfalfa field next to a farmer’ house that doesn’t allow hunting outside of his family correctly report the statistics? Or the DOT reporting the number of road kills? WT’s aren’t stupid they will move where the food is and where there are fewer predators, hence more deer along the highways and on some farmland. Granted there is still some good hunting but definitely not like it was several years ago. But for a increasing general population in the 100 units (excluding some farmland) I call BS.

[hambone]

you are right hunted 49 monday hunted hard away from roads been hunting there for 20years monday not a thing not even a doe found 4 or 5 kill sites dont look like winter kill or a hunter. this was back in some thick stuff where most people dont go.

[SHANE(WA)]

Finally, someone that lives here. thanks BIg10guage not getting flamed by me, right with you , most of this crap about the deer population being up or is just fine is from people who travel over here from 300 miles away, deer pop is not fine, buck to doe ratio is so far out of whack. We use to hunt by the canadian border above northport for years when I was a boy, my dad hunted it for 20 years, deer hunting was awesome, today its gone, decimated, be lucky to see a doe. We elk hunted it for 6 days this year and saw 3 does the whole time lol, use to see muleys all the time, cant remember when the last time I saw one up there. This is everywhere in the corner of the state, get into any of the state or forest lands and deer are far and few between.Then to here people from the westside on here talking about how the winter wasnt hard on the deer here bull$%#^, we lost 60% of the deer just in the clayton area, lost almost all the 4 1/2 yr old and older whiteails, just at my house I use to see 70 deer a night in the summer this year 20 -30 a night, I had 1 buck this year return that was 4 1/2, year before I had 8-10 bucks in the 3 1/2 to 5 1/2 range all gone but 1, and no hunters didnt kill them, deer are not hunted, except by a couple bow hunters, HUGE impact last winter, 140" of snow dont impact deer?  , "it was light fluffy snow" i dont care what type of snow it was its 140". Dont even get me started on the deer population in pend orielle county they lost the most and the bears and cats impact on the deer since the ban.I couldnt even imagine getting on here and talking about the deer pop on the westside cause I went over and scouted twice in Aug, come on people.Yeah hunting is still pretty decent on private places if its protected and not slammed by hunters.Then its a very select few who have these places to hunt, not the majority of hunters who have that luxury. I live here, right smack in the middle of some of the best whitetail hunting in WA, I see whats going on around here.

[Palmer]

I've been hunting Norhtern Idaho and the Northeast for over 15 years.  Last year we harvested 5 bucks and 1 doe out of  three of us.  We got all of our deer within a three day period when the weather conditions were right.  It was our most successfull year in 15.  One day we saw about a dozen does hanging out together.  I also saw 8 moose in one day.  If the WT population is down then it is due to the snow impact late last fall, because from what I've experienced and read, it has been climbing in past years. 

We have a cabin in Idaho and talk to locals.  There wasn't a lot of winter kill seen when the snows subsided.  I saw a lot of deer browsing under the trees last winter and they looked healthy.

[WAcoyotehunter]

Dont even get me started on the deer population in pend orielle county they lost the most and the bears and cats impact on the deer since the ban.I couldnt even imagine getting on here and talking about the deer pop on the westside cause I went over and scouted twice in Aug, come on people.Yeah hunting is still pretty decent on private places if its protected and not slammed by hunters.Then its a very select few who have these places to hunt, not the majority of hunters who have that luxury. I live here, right smack in the middle of some of the best whitetail hunting in WA, I see whats going on around here.

Yep- there are lots of predators running around here.  They're killing lots of deer and coupled with a tough winter the population appears to be down from last year.  This spring I saw quite a few deer down low and was optimistic about winter kill....I think i was being foolish.  The deer were low and concentrated more than usual.
I think lots of does lost their fawns, you're also right about these deer 'sinks' that are so visible.  People drive down a road and see a field w/ 40 deer and figure the populaiton is booming...it's not- it's down, and likely to take a couple years to recover.  It can take a few years to compensate for loss of a good fawning spring.  One more reason to support QDM quality deer management, it's for the herd- not just trophies.

[Gamblin Guy]

I'm leaving today to try to do my part to balance the population in the 117 unit, bringing my son with me to look for a couple of does.   

[WAcoyotehunter]

shoot me a pm if you want any help with that. 

[Gamblin Guy]

WA,

PM sent.     Thanks.

[Colville]

Wow. QDM is going to prevent winter kill, increase fawn recruitment and decrease predation. That's a neat trick.

Or maybe they'll just bounce back from a bad winter like they have in the past, coupled with reduced Doe pmts, like the WDFW issued this year... without QDM.

[big_bucks]

Predator management is badly needed up there.  It's going to get worse with the super libs controlling our gov't.

[wildlndff]

I have hunted several areas in the NE corner and in the past few years it was nothing more than excercise.  I owned land along the river by Moranski Mountain which in the early 80's was a very productive area then more people built homes, posted land and after the last time we were up there it is fairly empty now.   A few years ago we hunted land owned by my daughters in-laws about a 900 acre section off of Addy Road saw nearly 150 does and one buck with the smallest antlers I have ever seen.  Yeah there is a population problem and 4 legged predators are just a small part of it, some of the folks in that area seem to hunt at will.  Hunted the area south of Sullivan Lake last season without success only saw two elk and 4 does in a week.

[jollyskwala]

I've been hunting the NE corner of the state for for 7 years now and I have to agree with 10 gauge. I live in Stevens County and I believe the deer population continues to drop. I was out opening day for modern firearm and did not see anything or even hear a shot. Not even a shot!  I've seen 2 bucks this year after being out 8 times.  1/2 of that was on private 1/2 on public. I hunt in tree stands, as well as still hunting/glassing from one location. One buck was on private land and one running across the road at night. I have a hard time believing the drop is due to predation, since there were so many deer prior to the hound hunting ban. Does anyone have any good data on cougar populations? In comparison to Montana where I used to live, the season and permitting is much more restrictive( shorter & earlier season, not hunting during the peak of the rut, etc. should be more than enough to give the whitetails ample opportunity to thrive. Maybe it is local but the reports i read on the buck to does rather was like 24:100. WDFW believes it needs to drop below 15 bucks per 100 does before they are really concerned. Wish I knew and wish out of state tags were not so spendy!

[jamesjet]

I have also been hunting the NE corner for over 10 years now.  The deer population is way down.  I think the population is down in the region as a whole not just certain areas.  I used to hunt the Tacoma Creek area and Ruby Creek areas and always left with a young buck.  In fact we used to see 20 -30 deer a day.  We always held out for that big buck but unfortunately always settled for a small buck.  I have noticed over the past few years that fewer deer are seen.  I have seen cougar there.  In some areas more cougar track than deer track.  I am starting to wonder how much of a impact the youth, disabled and hunters over 65 have made on the doe population.  Look on the bottom of page 19 of the regs. I am all for special hunts for individuals with special needs, dont get me wrong...just starting to think that predation is not the only reason for fewer deer.  Even the master hunters can take a w/t doe up there late season...

[Colville]

10+ here as well.

6 hunters avg 4+ deer every year. We've seen no change in numbers we've seen either on the low ground private or in our hunting area. We hunt highly pressured, well roaded public land.

We hunt late because not hearing a shot in Early season isn't big news. It's a tough hunt in Oct, we long since gave up on it. Not seeing bucks on green fields is also not news. I pass several hundred deer every year on the way out to our camp and with rare exception, regardless of how close to dawn or dusk, we see no bucks.

I expect last year's winter to have an effect that we haven't seen in recent past. We do see both bear and cougar sign in our area so there's predation and significant #'s taken in our area by hunters, yet every year it's more or less the same. We see deer and we shoot deer.

I appreciate every locale isn't the same. However, I don't buy into the conspiracy that WDFW has no grip on the numbers and is driving the herd into the ground. If that's true we should have seen a steadily declining harvest as the underlying herd became less productive.

GO HERE: http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/harvest/index.htm

Look back over a decade and tell me what you see as a trend. I'm not a math expert, but if herds are suffering how can harvest see a up-trending success rate on bucks and does if they aren't there? If in fact the anecdotal claims are true it's very hard to square with the harvest reports:

Excluding Sherman unit because it has no late rifle season, the following are the totals taken by modern rifle in region 1 units open to late season any buck: (kelly hill, alladin- douglas(three forks before)selkirk, mt spokane, 49 degrees and huckleberry)

        Bucks   Antlerless  Hunters
2001  4550     956         24681
2002  4670     727         21750
2003  5046    1009        20725
2004  5945    1207        23225
2005  5819    1056        21188
2006  5695    1621        23623
2007  5310    1590        24127

There are some outlier years, 2000 had 6500 bucks and 1998 had just 4000. But what's remarkable is the consistency of the numbers. The same areas just tend to have the same range of output with slight variations with one trend. Generally a trend toward increased harvest. That makes very very little sense if in fact we are damaging the productivity of this group and have been doing so for a long time. I would note that doe pmts are down in this area from 1973 in 07 to 1025 this year. Looks to me like they made that change relative to winter kill and last year's hunter success further noting that they are reacting quickly to changes in the field.  From what I can see the herd is healthy and consistent.

[WAcoyotehunter]

Wow. QDM is going to prevent winter kill, increase fawn recruitment and decrease predation. That's a neat trick.

Or maybe they'll just bounce back from a bad winter like they have in the past, coupled with reduced Doe pmts, like the WDFW issued this year... without QDM.

You should check it out- it's not a trick, it's biology.

[Palmer]

If 1 in 3 hunters are harvesting a deer and the buck to doe ratio is 1:4 then I don't see how the population is in decline.  Last year I read an estimate of 50,000 WT in the 100 units in Washington and 200,000 WT in Region 1 of Idaho.

I do think it's easier to call in bucks when there is a ratio of 1:3 or better.  In Idaho I believe the ratio to be far better because anterless is open dearing modern firearm.  I think hunters take more does then bucks.  In one instance we shot a doe only to find out there was a huge buck on her trail and he was pissed.  It sounded like he was going to storm out of the woods and take us on until he regained his senses.

[HuntingFanatic]

I just got back from hunting both region 1 in Idaho and the NE corner of Washington. Not a hell of a lot of sign in either one. More moose spotted and sign than deer. It was rather frustrating. Although I do not live there it was WAY less sign\deer than I have seen in the past.

[Palmer]

I looked up the ratio for 105-124 areas and the WDFW states in the 2006 Game report a 28:100 buck to doe ratio.   However 58% of the bucks were yearlings.  So that does nock it down to about 1.4 mature buck out of 10 deer or 1:7.  As long as the ratio is better than 20:100 buck to doe than I'm happy.  I've heard that when it gets worse the bucks are less responsive to calls and rattles and that you'll only see yearling bucks.

The report for areas 105 - 124 also states that 7,122 bucks were taken and 19% were 5 pt+.
Judging by the graphs there appeared to be about a 35% success rate for a hunter to harvest a deer.  Not bad.

An employee at the sporting goods store in Newport says he knows of only 8 deer taken so far during the late season in Washington and Idaho.  I'm sure it'll get better.