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Author Topic: Any Pudelpointer owners?  (Read 8250 times)

Offline Colin

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Re: Any Pudelpointer owners?
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2017, 09:40:47 PM »
I'm gonna have to come train with you guys as I don't know much about upland training and don't get to see those kinds of dogs work. Lemme know when you guys have a test. I'd be interested in watching!

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Offline addicted2hunting

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Re: Any Pudelpointer owners?
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2017, 10:08:49 PM »
I'm gonna have to come train with you guys as I don't know much about upland training and don't get to see those kinds of dogs work. Lemme know when you guys have a test. I'd be interested in watching!

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Absolutely colin. Our first test is may 19th to 21st. We will train a bunch this year and you can come out anytime.
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Offline Happy Gilmore

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Re: Any Pudelpointer owners?
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2017, 10:10:15 PM »
Exposure, desire and experience. Without the trio you ain't got anything.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
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Offline Happy Gilmore

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Re: Any Pudelpointer owners?
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2017, 10:16:06 PM »
All Pp's are high drive and amazing just like all labs including show dogs are high drive... You're right. Lol.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
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Offline addicted2hunting

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Re: Any Pudelpointer owners?
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2017, 10:18:27 PM »
We will have to agree to disagree as I don't think a top level PP is gonna out retrieve a top level lab. The blind work you are comparing is apples and oranges and is very different than how a lab is trained to handle on a blind. Who knows maybe I'm wrong as i have only seen 2 PP's run marks.


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Yes that's where the training differences come in not the breed itself. Could I train my PP to handle 300yd blinds under complete control like a lab? Yes he is totally capable but once you go that way you can't go back. After I'm done testing Navhda Iwith cedar he will be trained like a lab to handle long blinds thus making him equal to a lab waterfowl hunting. My dog will do a 300 yd blind now but it won't be to test standards but if you shoot a winged cripple out at skagit headquarters and it goes 300yds into the cattail tidal marsh my dog I say back and he wil search an entire 300yd radius until he finds that duck and I can sit and drink coffee until he comes back and delivers to hand. That whole time I have no sight of him. Most labs guys would leave that bird.
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Offline addicted2hunting

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Re: Any Pudelpointer owners?
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2017, 10:21:28 PM »
All Pp's are high drive and amazing just like all labs including show dogs are high drive... You're right. Lol.
No not ALL PPs are high drive. Just as not all labs are lazy. You just gotta know the kennels you are buying from. I'll show you what drive in a PP is like...
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Offline Happy Gilmore

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Re: Any Pudelpointer owners?
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2017, 10:23:05 PM »
Small number of dogs hunting which handle at 300 yards let alone 30.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
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Offline addicted2hunting

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Re: Any Pudelpointer owners?
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2017, 10:28:03 PM »
Well mine does 300 yds in the marsh on cripples without me rooting a whistle and he doesn't even have to see me. All I say is heel... aim him and say back and he disappears. About 75% of the time he delivers the cripple to hand after about 30 mins of tearing the cattails up like a bulldozer...
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Offline addicted2hunting

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Re: Any Pudelpointer owners?
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2017, 10:29:21 PM »
That's a low drive PP though! :chuckle:
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Offline Colin

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Re: Any Pudelpointer owners?
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2017, 06:56:56 AM »
I'm gonna have to come train with you guys as I don't know much about upland training and don't get to see those kinds of dogs work. Lemme know when you guys have a test. I'd be interested in watching!

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Absolutely colin. Our first test is may 19th to 21st. We will train a bunch this year and you can come out anytime.
Lemme know where it's at.

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Offline Colin

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Re: Any Pudelpointer owners?
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2017, 07:08:49 AM »
We will have to agree to disagree as I don't think a top level PP is gonna out retrieve a top level lab. The blind work you are comparing is apples and oranges and is very different than how a lab is trained to handle on a blind. Who knows maybe I'm wrong as i have only seen 2 PP's run marks.


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Yes that's where the training differences come in not the breed itself. Could I train my PP to handle 300yd blinds under complete control like a lab? Yes he is totally capable but once you go that way you can't go back. After I'm done testing Navhda Iwith cedar he will be trained like a lab to handle long blinds thus making him equal to a lab waterfowl hunting. My dog will do a 300 yd blind now but it won't be to test standards but if you shoot a winged cripple out at skagit headquarters and it goes 300yds into the cattail tidal marsh my dog I say back and he wil search an entire 300yd radius until he finds that duck and I can sit and drink coffee until he comes back and delivers to hand. That whole time I have no sight of him. Most labs guys would leave that bird.
I mean a 300 yard duck search is pretty impressive. I'm sure that skill and his natural abiltu have been carfully nurtured and trained to bring that out of him. I totally respect that type of skill in a dog and a trainer.

But in that hunting scenario I wouldn't leave that bird, cause I don't shoot them unless they are decoying and will fall nearby, when I don't have the means to retrieve that bird. In a field we take lots of shots on the edge when birds are wary, resulting in some cripples that sail 400 - 500 yards. In that situation I want my dog to no off all the birds down in the deekes, flailing and crippled or dead, and go after that cripple or stunned bird that went down just in line with the telephone pole on the other half of a 100 acre field. A few minutes and I a have another bird in the bag and we are blinding back up working birds again.

I honestly don't know which type of blind is better. I think you're right about the "once you go that way you can't go back". At this point I don't think I could train my lab to put on a duck search like that, at least not with the same style, without seriously hurting his other blinds. I don't know if a dog that's been carfully trained to do duck searches to that level can be trained to run a traditional blind at the same level as a lab. Not saying you cant do it. Its just counter to what the dogs already been taught. I think this why most don't train for the upland, last series of the Grand till the day before. It messes with the dogs regular blinds too much. It will be interesting to see how Cedar does with regular blinds as I've not seen a trained upland dog be taught this.

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Offline addicted2hunting

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Re: Any Pudelpointer owners?
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2017, 07:57:27 AM »
Exactly. Where it suffers doing a duck search and not running a traditional blind is fields. It can get frustrating when you have birds coming in and you send the dog to retrieve a bird he didn't see and it takes some time possibly flaring birds. The sailing cripples are usually from guys in the hunting party shooting the straggler flying away after we dumped some in the dekes. You are spot on with the fact it takes a lot of confidence building and training to get a good duck search like that. It isn't my optimal choice out duck hunting as most his retrieving scenarios are what you describe like a typical waterfowler. That's why I want to teach him to do blinds like a lab after navhda is done and hopefully he will take to it after duck searching for so long. You hit the nail on the head though with it being apples to oranges cause you can't really compare a duck search to a retriever blind, they encourage completely different traits than each other.
"real dogs have beards"

Offline Happy Gilmore

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Re: Any Pudelpointer owners?
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2017, 09:23:46 AM »
Well mine does 300 yds in the marsh on cripples without me rooting a whistle and he doesn't even have to see me. All I say is heel... aim him and say back and he disappears. About 75% of the time he delivers the cripple to hand after about 30 mins of tearing the cattails up like a bulldozer...

Trailing a wounded bird and a blind has no relation. Trailing is fun. Blind running is 100% control. I've trained with a top navhda dog and he doesn't run blinds in any way similar to a standard retriever protocol.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt 1899

Offline constructeur

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Re: Any Pudelpointer owners?
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2017, 09:55:50 AM »
We will have to agree to disagree as I don't think a top level PP is gonna out retrieve a top level lab. The blind work you are comparing is apples and oranges and is very different than how a lab is trained to handle on a blind. Who knows maybe I'm wrong as i have only seen 2 PP's run marks.


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All respect here Colin. I'm not sure how you hunt, but i'm often in tidal water at a river or slough mouth, and if we do shoot a bird poorly and it falls at 150+ yards, not only can I generally not see that, I'm not going to send a dog into something I'm not sure of, on the swim of a lifetime across a multitude of currents. We'd just fire up the boat and go get em' at that point. So it really comes down to short 50-100 yard retrieves, if that, and the versatiles handle those just fine. No top level triple dipply blind across a cigar pond with extra gravy on the side type retrieves necessary.

My comments about out retrieving, I mean most of the versatiles, especially the local PP's, will out 'leg' a lab and hang paw for paw on water marks.

I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong; if I'm proved so this Summer, I'll be the first to say from there on out that the local versatiles are retrieving nearly as well as labs, or whatever we find out.

Offline Happy Gilmore

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Re: Any Pudelpointer owners?
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2017, 10:25:06 AM »
My duck hunting was on the Skagit, wallula, Hanford, snake, cresent bar and upper Columbia. 300 yard blind isnt uncommon and handling the dog the entire way to the bird and having control and handling on the return is equally important to get the dog on and off the correct islands and avoid some bad banks. Most dogs can't and wont handle through an entire retrieve. It's just part of retriever basics when training a high level duck dog of any breed.

"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt 1899

Offline Bluemoon

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Re: Any Pudelpointer owners?
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2017, 10:26:01 AM »
Just to throw more into this conversation for the original OP of this thread, when searching for  PP's there is also two registries for this breed.  The group of breeders between Idaho and Oregon breed outstanding bird dogs there is no denying that.  They breed and register and test through NAVHDA.   There is also the Pudlepointer Club of North America that follow a more strict German testing and breeding program more like the Deutsch-Drahthaar.  Where the dog is also tested on on fur.  (Which is something to consider if you have a family cat.)
Also to breed according to the P.C. of N.A. your dog also has to pass a VJP & BIT test (Breed Improvement Test) before the age of 5 or you are not allowed to let that dog into the gene pool.
I personally have been fortunate to train and hunt PP's from both registries and you will not go wrong with either. As far as "my PP will out mark, retrieve or what ever else your Lab"  all I can say is I look forward to the day when we could somehow have a Hunt WA BRING IT ON DAY.  Because there are an amazing amount of outstanding dogs and breeds owned by some great people on here..

Offline Happy Gilmore

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Re: Any Pudelpointer owners?
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2017, 10:33:18 AM »
Oh common Richard... You wouldn't even take on my old fat brood bitch xhesapeake on a timed upland bird finding bet  :)
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt 1899

Offline RC3

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Re: Any Pudelpointer owners?
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2017, 10:59:23 AM »
As an owner of Wirehairs and Shothairs currently, but having had labs in the past I can agree with Happy.  I will always have a versatile now but for the average beginner a lab is probably more likely to be a better fit.  I can understand what he was trying to say.

Offline Colin

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Re: Any Pudelpointer owners?
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2017, 11:59:50 AM »
We will have to agree to disagree as I don't think a top level PP is gonna out retrieve a top level lab. The blind work you are comparing is apples and oranges and is very different than how a lab is trained to handle on a blind. Who knows maybe I'm wrong as i have only seen 2 PP's run marks.


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All respect here Colin. I'm not sure how you hunt, but i'm often in tidal water at a river or slough mouth, and if we do shoot a bird poorly and it falls at 150+ yards, not only can I generally not see that, I'm not going to send a dog into something I'm not sure of, on the swim of a lifetime across a multitude of currents. We'd just fire up the boat and go get em' at that point. So it really comes down to short 50-100 yard retrieves, if that, and the versatiles handle those just fine. No top level triple dipply blind across a cigar pond with extra gravy on the side type retrieves necessary.

My comments about out retrieving, I mean most of the versatiles, especially the local PP's, will out 'leg' a lab and hang paw for paw on water marks.

I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong; if I'm proved so this Summer, I'll be the first to say from there on out that the local versatiles are retrieving nearly as well as labs, or whatever we find out.
Honestly I hunt fields 95% of the time. So I always see the falls and I usually send my dog on the long blind first. I only got my floaters wet twice this past season and both times there was not tall cover surrounding so I just don't encounter those situations.

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Offline addicted2hunting

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Re: Any Pudelpointer owners?
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2017, 12:22:55 PM »
Well mine does 300 yds in the marsh on cripples without me rooting a whistle and he doesn't even have to see me. All I say is heel... aim him and say back and he disappears. About 75% of the time he delivers the cripple to hand after about 30 mins of tearing the cattails up like a bulldozer...

Trailing a wounded bird and a blind has no relation. Trailing is fun. Blind running is 100% control. I've trained with a top navhda dog and he doesn't run blinds in any way similar to a standard retriever protocol.
Well typically that bird lands about 150yds from you so there is no scent on the cattails for them to trail. And you can't see a dog in cattails except the tops of the brush moving. Standard protocol for blinds is impossible in a heavy cattail environment.
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Offline addicted2hunting

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Re: Any Pudelpointer owners?
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2017, 12:31:12 PM »
That is where a duck search dog shines over a standard protocol blind. But field environments where you can see the dog then yes typical blind protocol will get you the bird much quicker. I hunt the tidal marsh in a layout boat out in front of HQ and I've dumped birds in floating cattail pads that are 100yd deep and I'm at the edge and send the dog from the edge. He didn't see them and the area of the fall is 50 yds into the patch of cattails. You can't handle a retriever in that stuff so it requires a dog to think and search on his own while he is in there.
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Offline addicted2hunting

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Re: Any Pudelpointer owners?
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2017, 12:34:32 PM »
Just to throw more into this conversation for the original OP of this thread, when searching for  PP's there is also two registries for this breed.  The group of breeders between Idaho and Oregon breed outstanding bird dogs there is no denying that.  They breed and register and test through NAVHDA.   There is also the Pudlepointer Club of North America that follow a more strict German testing and breeding program more like the Deutsch-Drahthaar.  Where the dog is also tested on on fur.  (Which is something to consider if you have a family cat.)
Also to breed according to the P.C. of N.A. your dog also has to pass a VJP & BIT test (Breed Improvement Test) before the age of 5 or you are not allowed to let that dog into the gene pool.
I personally have been fortunate to train and hunt PP's from both registries and you will not go wrong with either. As far as "my PP will out mark, retrieve or what ever else your Lab"  all I can say is I look forward to the day when we could somehow have a Hunt WA BRING IT ON DAY.  Because there are an amazing amount of outstanding dogs and breeds owned by some great people on here..
Richard that would be a fun day.  Timed marked retrieves, timed doubles and triples. Upland field. Tracking, duck search and all that.
"real dogs have beards"

Offline Shannon

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Re: Any Pudelpointer owners?
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2017, 12:36:45 PM »
I was never implying that my dog could do retrieving test better than a lab. I don't train for that level of retrieving with pointers. What I was saying is that they have the basic ability to do what labs do if trained accordingly equally as well. I like to see the independence in a pointer verses the control of retrievers. A perfect day for me is hunting all day and saying very few commands during that time. I don't get off on giving direction and hand signals all the way to a blind retrieve anymore. I prefer to give the command and let the dog do there thing. If they get off line I don't care. As long as they have the drive to stay out there until finding the bird or I call them back. Nothing short of that.
I will side with the camp that the average area I duck hunt in doesn't allow me to give hand signals beyond 50 yards or less simply because I can't see them or the bird. Maybe the next guy hunts in something different and a different approach is better. To each there own. I am very convinced that if you take a PP from day one and train them like a lab they would do equally as well as any lab would do. I don't know of anyone that does that though. There has been some pretty successful PP's in the retrieving realm but its usually as an after thought to traditional pointing training.

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Re: Any Pudelpointer owners?
« Reply #48 on: February 05, 2017, 12:45:33 PM »
I was never implying that my dog could do retrieving test better than a lab. I don't train for that level of retrieving with pointers. What I was saying is that they have the basic ability to do what labs do if trained accordingly equally as well. I like to see the independence in a pointer verses the control of retrievers. A perfect day for me is hunting all day and saying very few commands during that time. I don't get off on giving direction and hand signals all the way to a blind retrieve anymore. I prefer to give the command and let the dog do there thing. If they get off line I don't care. As long as they have the drive to stay out there until finding the bird or I call them back. Nothing short of that.
I will side with the camp that the average area I duck hunt in doesn't allow me to give hand signals beyond 50 yards or less simply because I can't see them or the bird. Maybe the next guy hunts in something different and a different approach is better. To each there own. I am very convinced that if you take a PP from day one and train them like a lab they would do equally as well as any lab would do. I don't know of anyone that does that though. There has been some pretty successful PP's in the retrieving realm but its usually as an after thought to traditional pointing training.
Well said. We know of a PP that was a navhda VC, HRCH, and a NASTRA champion all by the age of 4 yrs old....
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Offline Colin

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Re: Any Pudelpointer owners?
« Reply #49 on: February 05, 2017, 12:52:34 PM »
I was never implying that my dog could do retrieving test better than a lab. I don't train for that level of retrieving with pointers. What I was saying is that they have the basic ability to do what labs do if trained accordingly equally as well. I like to see the independence in a pointer verses the control of retrievers. A perfect day for me is hunting all day and saying very few commands during that time. I don't get off on giving direction and hand signals all the way to a blind retrieve anymore. I prefer to give the command and let the dog do there thing. If they get off line I don't care. As long as they have the drive to stay out there until finding the bird or I call them back. Nothing short of that.
I will side with the camp that the average area I duck hunt in doesn't allow me to give hand signals beyond 50 yards or less simply because I can't see them or the bird. Maybe the next guy hunts in something different and a different approach is better. To each there own. I am very convinced that if you take a PP from day one and train them like a lab they would do equally as well as any lab would do. I don't know of anyone that does that though. There has been some pretty successful PP's in the retrieving realm but its usually as an after thought to traditional pointing training.
I mean that all depends on your standards in the retriever world. MH is gonna look down its nose at HRCH while HRCH is gonna look down at a MH and a FC/AFC is gonna look down on both. Anybody know if a PP has entered a UKC Grand?

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