collapse

Author Topic: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies  (Read 2726 times)

Offline lokidog

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2009
  • Posts: 13209
  • Location: Decatur Island/Sultan
Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2017, 10:07:05 PM »
I'm waiting for him to work on the ESA!  :tup:
Only congress can change the ESA.
:tup: That's why I said work on the ESA!
And what do you suggest?

1st on the List
Eliminate the ability for antihunting groups to sue and get reimbursed, the anti-hunting groups are getting rich off taxpayers by sueing over the ESA.

2nd
Require proof a specie is critically engangered before it can be given ESA protection. Case in point, 60,000 wolves in existence in North America and they were give ESA protection. Meanwhile caribou are going extinct because of ESA protections on wolves!

Now if you're gonna say wolves shouldn't have protection anywhere because there are 60,000 of them in North America, you can't say caribou are going extinct when there are about 1 to 2 million of them in North America.
You might want to look that up. Boreal Woodland Caribou are listed as threatened in Canada. Don't confuse them with other caribou species which are abundant.
Consider this though, lynx are very abundant in Canada and AK. The lower 48 has a few but they are on the periphery of their range. WA, ID, MT, MN, and Maine have a few and this has spawned a raft full of lawsuits with intended purpose of stopping trapping in the mentioned states. Maine has been hit the hardest because they actually have a decent lynx population in the northern part of the state. They finally received an incidental take permit from the USFWS which as I remember limits them to 5 lynx over 7 years. Still they have problems because the lynx population is growing because of habitat changes (more logging). the difference of literally a few feet could mean the shut down of trapping in northern Maine or another Lynx pelt legally sent to market on the Canadian side.
Then you have Polar Bears which seem to be at or near a peak in population but are on the threatened list because of maybe global warming might effect them at some point in the future?

@olyguy79  There are different subspecies of animals that may or may not be endangered, Florida Panthers are not the same as Washington Cougars, Northern Timber Wolves are not the same as Mexican Gray Wolves or the Western Gray Wolf that used to live in WA. Woodland Caribou, Barren Ground Caribou, Mountain Caribou, Quebec-Labrador Caribou are not the same subspecies. 

Offline wapiti hunter2

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Sourdough
  • *****
  • Join Date: Sep 2009
  • Posts: 2326
  • Location: Yelm
Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2017, 12:00:09 AM »
Trump has just ordered the lifting of the ban to be placed on hold.

Bowing to public pressure.

https://apnews.com/457e895e968f444eb46a19da77f52562/Trump-delays-new-policy-on-importing-elephant-parts

"President Donald Trump said Friday heís delaying a new policy allowing the body parts of African elephants shot for sport to be imported until he can review ďall conservation facts.Ē

Aren't you suppose to know the facts before you make policy?  :bash:  :bash:

Offline bearpaw

  • Family, Friends, Outdoors
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Apr 2009
  • Posts: 28164
  • Location: Colville
  • "Rather Be Cougar Huntin"
    • http://www.facebook.com/DaleDenney
    • Bearpaw Outfitters
  • Groups: WFW, WSTA, WSB, WPHA, FWM, NRA, SCI, RMEF, NAHC, IOGA, MOGA, CCOC, BBB
Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2017, 09:25:41 AM »
I'm waiting for him to work on the ESA!  :tup:
Only congress can change the ESA.
:tup: That's why I said work on the ESA!
And what do you suggest?

1st on the List
Eliminate the ability for antihunting groups to sue and get reimbursed, the anti-hunting groups are getting rich off taxpayers by sueing over the ESA.

2nd
Require proof a specie is critically engangered before it can be given ESA protection. Case in point, 60,000 wolves in existence in North America and they were give ESA protection. Meanwhile caribou are going extinct because of ESA protections on wolves!

Now if you're gonna say wolves shouldn't have protection anywhere because there are 60,000 of them in North America, you can't say caribou are going extinct when there are about 1 to 2 million of them in North America.
You might want to look that up. Boreal Woodland Caribou are listed as threatened in Canada. Don't confuse them with other caribou species which are abundant.
Consider this though, lynx are very abundant in Canada and AK. The lower 48 has a few but they are on the periphery of their range. WA, ID, MT, MN, and Maine have a few and this has spawned a raft full of lawsuits with intended purpose of stopping trapping in the mentioned states. Maine has been hit the hardest because they actually have a decent lynx population in the northern part of the state. They finally received an incidental take permit from the USFWS which as I remember limits them to 5 lynx over 7 years. Still they have problems because the lynx population is growing because of habitat changes (more logging). the difference of literally a few feet could mean the shut down of trapping in northern Maine or another Lynx pelt legally sent to market on the Canadian side.
Then you have Polar Bears which seem to be at or near a peak in population but are on the threatened list because of maybe global warming might effect them at some point in the future?

Thanks for explaining the difference between caribou species and for the other good examples.

For those that don't know this history of events! USFWS put themselves between a rock and a hard spot. There are numerous subspecies of wolves, there were some wolves of one subspecie in the NRM already and other wolves were naturally colonizing from southern Canada, but USFWS planted a somewhat larger subspecie which was trapped from farther north, in order to plant these wolves they said they are the same wolf. Well there are 60,000+ of those wolves in Canada and Alaska. I'm not the one who said it's all the same wolf, it was USFWS! Now wolf groups want to claim all these different subspecies exist again so that they can keep wolf populations in more states ESA listed. But after planting wolves from northern Canada, the population that has spread throughout all the NRM and west coast is arguable the same wolf as Canada and Alaska.

Wolves were delisted by the feds in the eastern 1/3 of Washington several years ago, at the same time as ID and MT, we could be hunting and regulating wolf numbers in eastern WA just like they are being regulated in Idaho but western WA won't let us!  :)
Americans are systematically advocating, legislating, and voting away each others rights. Support all user groups & quit losing opportunity!

http://trophymaps.com "Do-It-Yourself" Hunting Maps" 
http://bearpawoutfitters.com Guided, Semi-Guided, Unguided, and Drop Camp Hunts in Idaho, Montana, Utah, and Washington. Hunts with tags available (no draw) spring bear, fall bear, buffalo, cougar, elk, mule deer, turkey, whitetail, wolf!

Offline bearpaw

  • Family, Friends, Outdoors
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Apr 2009
  • Posts: 28164
  • Location: Colville
  • "Rather Be Cougar Huntin"
    • http://www.facebook.com/DaleDenney
    • Bearpaw Outfitters
  • Groups: WFW, WSTA, WSB, WPHA, FWM, NRA, SCI, RMEF, NAHC, IOGA, MOGA, CCOC, BBB
Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2017, 09:37:18 AM »
I'm waiting for him to work on the ESA!  :tup:
Only congress can change the ESA.
:tup: That's why I said work on the ESA!
And what do you suggest?
2nd
Require proof a specie is critically engangered before it can be given ESA protection. Case in point, 60,000 wolves in existence in North America and they were give ESA protection. Meanwhile caribou are going extinct because of ESA protections on wolves!
Proof is required, that's why NMFS and USFWS decline to list species every year. You have people like a retired WA DOF biologist in the Olympia area who has petitioned NMFS to essentially list every salmon/steelhead/bottomfish in WA, most of which NMFS has declined to list.

The biggest issue I've seen is the de-listing. USFWS/NMFS goes to de-list and bam lawsuit which many times is upheld by a judge.

You can't put a blanket number on the recovery of all species because I would assume most would agree that 1,000 wolves is different than 1,000 steelhead.

I think you misunderstood my point. I'm not trying to say there should be a blanket number that works for all animals, I'm simply saying if there are 60,000+ wolves and wolf populations are expanding then wolves are not endangered.
Americans are systematically advocating, legislating, and voting away each others rights. Support all user groups & quit losing opportunity!

http://trophymaps.com "Do-It-Yourself" Hunting Maps" 
http://bearpawoutfitters.com Guided, Semi-Guided, Unguided, and Drop Camp Hunts in Idaho, Montana, Utah, and Washington. Hunts with tags available (no draw) spring bear, fall bear, buffalo, cougar, elk, mule deer, turkey, whitetail, wolf!

Online huntnfmly

  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Sourdough
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2007
  • Posts: 1696
Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2017, 09:47:47 AM »
Never really understood shooting an animal as just a trophy.... If you aren't going to eat it why not let it be, especially when elephants are populations are on decline.
Please educate yourself about elephant hunting and African hunting in general. Every bit of the animal is eaten or utilized in some way by locals and neighbors. They are very appreciative and flock to the kill sites. Elephant hunting benefits the animals and communities in many ways.
:yeah:
I'm your dam tour guide arty...
Take as many dam pictures as you want ....
Are there any dam questions ..

Offline bearpaw

  • Family, Friends, Outdoors
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Apr 2009
  • Posts: 28164
  • Location: Colville
  • "Rather Be Cougar Huntin"
    • http://www.facebook.com/DaleDenney
    • Bearpaw Outfitters
  • Groups: WFW, WSTA, WSB, WPHA, FWM, NRA, SCI, RMEF, NAHC, IOGA, MOGA, CCOC, BBB
Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2017, 10:01:42 AM »
Never really understood shooting an animal as just a trophy.... If you aren't going to eat it why not let it be, especially when elephants are populations are on decline.
Please educate yourself about elephant hunting and African hunting in general. Every bit of the animal is eaten or utilized in some way by locals and neighbors. They are very appreciative and flock to the kill sites. Elephant hunting benefits the animals and communities in many ways.
:yeah:

I want to add a little additional info about how hunting benefits elephants and other species. Africa is an extremely poor continent, poachers abound trying to make money off wildlife parts. If elephant hunting is allowed hunters are willing to pay $30,000 to $50,000+ to shoot an elephant. This makes the animals more valuable than they are to poachers and local people police those animals far more aggressively to save the animals and keep the hunters coming. Hunting is a boon for local economies providing much needed income. When you take away hunting poaching increases, that has been proven in the countries that abolished elephant hunting. The countries that allow regulated sport hunting usually have the best populations of any species because hunters are willing to spend the money that is used to manage wildlife and keep wildlife abundant.
Americans are systematically advocating, legislating, and voting away each others rights. Support all user groups & quit losing opportunity!

http://trophymaps.com "Do-It-Yourself" Hunting Maps" 
http://bearpawoutfitters.com Guided, Semi-Guided, Unguided, and Drop Camp Hunts in Idaho, Montana, Utah, and Washington. Hunts with tags available (no draw) spring bear, fall bear, buffalo, cougar, elk, mule deer, turkey, whitetail, wolf!

Online huntnfmly

  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Sourdough
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2007
  • Posts: 1696
Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2017, 10:15:35 AM »
Very good point.
Once they put that value on the animals they protect them better anti groups don't understand that
I'm your dam tour guide arty...
Take as many dam pictures as you want ....
Are there any dam questions ..

Online huntnfmly

  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Sourdough
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2007
  • Posts: 1696
Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2017, 10:21:08 AM »
This might be Apple to oranges but this shows how antis think.
 There was a interview with the president of humane society about exotics on private ranches in Texas and said about a species that was only alive on these ranches should just be extinct because that type of hunting is wrong.
I'm your dam tour guide arty...
Take as many dam pictures as you want ....
Are there any dam questions ..

Offline beav1980

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hunter
  • ***
  • Join Date: Feb 2008
  • Posts: 134
  • Location: Chehalis
Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2017, 10:25:32 AM »
I'm so glad as U.S. citizens we can manage another countries wildlife smh.  How about let's work on managing our wildlife.  Let's let them manage their own.  It's the U.S. citizen that goes and spends thousands of dollars to go shoot an elephant that gives us all a bad name! Kinda like the lion guy.  Lifting this ban will increase poaching and the black market imo

Offline Britt-dog

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hunter
  • ***
  • Join Date: Aug 2008
  • Posts: 121
  • Location: Cheney
Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2017, 12:28:14 PM »
I'm so glad as U.S. citizens we can manage another countries wildlife smh.  How about let's work on managing our wildlife.  Let's let them manage their own.  It's the U.S. citizen that goes and spends thousands of dollars to go shoot an elephant that gives us all a bad name! Kinda like the lion guy.  Lifting this ban will increase poaching and the black market imo

Please explain the information you've used to come to your opinion. the individuals here in favor of lifting the ban have articulated their reasoning. Please do the same.

My guess is "your opinion" has no basis in fact, but instead is a result of your feelings.

ETA: lifting the ban on importation of elephant trophies is allowing these countries to manage their own wildlife. Those countries have chosen to allow non resident hunters to hunt their wildlife. Banning the importation of the resulting trophies is in essence trying to nullify their decision.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 12:33:49 PM by Britt-dog »

Offline lokidog

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2009
  • Posts: 13209
  • Location: Decatur Island/Sultan
Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2017, 10:55:56 PM »
 :yeah:

Offline pianoman9701

  • Mushroom Man
  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Legend
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 26115
  • Location: Vancouver USA
  • NRA Life, MH, WFW, CCRKBA, NAGR, RMEF, WSB
Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2017, 07:59:15 AM »
I'm so glad as U.S. citizens we can manage another countries wildlife smh.  How about let's work on managing our wildlife.  Let's let them manage their own.  It's the U.S. citizen that goes and spends thousands of dollars to go shoot an elephant that gives us all a bad name! Kinda like the lion guy.  Lifting this ban will increase poaching and the black market imo

I'm delighted to have the opportunity to clear up a few of your misconceptions regarding licensed trophy hunting in Africa. So, these countries are poor. Take the southern white rhino. In 1960, there were 800 left. Today, there are over 20K living in the wild. Their recovery is due almost completely to breeding programs, habitat improvement, and anti-poaching patrols paid for with trophy hunting dollars. Look it up. The Northern white rhino hasn't been legally hunted for 40 years and faces extinction within 5 years. They can't afford the anti-poaching patrols necessary to protect them. Their habitat has been ruined by poverty, farming, and war. The success of the southern rhino is true of more than a dozen species across Africa. You seriously need to learn about conservation and how licensed hunting saves species if you're going to be a representative of our hunting culture. This is the tip of the iceberg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_white_rhinoceros
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 08:24:31 AM by pianoman9701 »
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline pianoman9701

  • Mushroom Man
  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Legend
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 26115
  • Location: Vancouver USA
  • NRA Life, MH, WFW, CCRKBA, NAGR, RMEF, WSB
Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2017, 08:00:55 AM »
Trump reinstated the ban yesterday. Huge mistake and will not only hurt the survival of these animals, but his image as a President who can make a decision and see it through.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline brush hunter

  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Sourdough
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2007
  • Posts: 1037
  • Location: Somewere on Mt. St.Helens
Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2017, 08:54:43 AM »
I'm waiting for him to work on the ESA!  :tup:
Only congress can change the ESA.
:tup: That's why I said work on the ESA!
And what do you suggest?
2nd
Require proof a specie is critically engangered before it can be given ESA protection. Case in point, 60,000 wolves in existence in North America and they were give ESA protection. Meanwhile caribou are going extinct because of ESA protections on wolves!
Proof is required, that's why NMFS and USFWS decline to list species every year. You have people like a retired WA DOF biologist in the Olympia area who has petitioned NMFS to essentially list every salmon/steelhead/bottomfish in WA, most of which NMFS has declined to list.

The biggest issue I've seen is the de-listing. USFWS/NMFS goes to de-list and bam lawsuit which many times is upheld by a judge.

You can't put a blanket number on the recovery of all species because I would assume most would agree that 1,000 wolves is different than 1,000 steelhead.

I think you misunderstood my point. I'm not trying to say there should be a blanket number that works for all animals, I'm simply saying if there are 60,000+ wolves and wolf populations are expanding then wolves are not endangered.
  They are when I'm in the area.....
That's my one shot.

Offline jackelope

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (+21)
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2007
  • Posts: 35963
  • Location: Duvall, WA
  • Groups: WSB RMGA NRA RMEF BHA
Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
« Reply #39 on: November 19, 2017, 09:07:18 AM »
So admittedly sometimes I donít see both sides of the coin in situations like this. How would the lifting of the ivory ban be a good thing? I see lots of potential negatives here from increased poaching etc because the value of ivory will go up. I donít see the benefits though. Not trying to sound like a dummy. I just donít see the benefits specific to elephants and ivory. That could be just me. Iím a little thick headed sometimes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

My posts, opinions and statements do not represent those of this forum

Offline Britt-dog

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hunter
  • ***
  • Join Date: Aug 2008
  • Posts: 121
  • Location: Cheney
Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
« Reply #40 on: November 19, 2017, 10:41:36 AM »
So admittedly sometimes I donít see both sides of the coin in situations like this. How would the lifting of the ivory ban be a good thing? I see lots of potential negatives here from increased poaching etc because the value of ivory will go up. I donít see the benefits though. Not trying to sound like a dummy. I just donít see the benefits specific to elephants and ivory. That could be just me. Iím a little thick headed sometimes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Poaching is exactly that, poaching. It goes on regardless of weather or not there is legal hunting. However it is proven that in areas without legal hunting poaching goes up because there is no longer any reason or money to protect the animals. The conservation minded hunter and his money are the best protections available.

I know you are a fan of sheep. What would happen if we closed down all legal hunting in WA and all the concerned parties (FNAWS, WDFW, ect) took their money and went away, but there were still people around the world willing to pay big money for a rams horns? Without any repercussions for their actions the same people who illegally gill net Lenore, trespass to collect sheds, or shoot elk off feed stations, would be climbing the mountains looking for a payday.

Legal importation of trophy ivory has zero affect on the price or availability of illegal (poached) ivory. A set of legally taken trophy tusks are never going to be on the black market, so they have no affect on the price or availability in Asia or other places where it is bought and sold. Trophy ivory, like sheep horns is very regulated.

Offline ribka

  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Old Salt
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2008
  • Posts: 5136
  • Location: E side
  • That's what she said
Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
« Reply #41 on: November 19, 2017, 10:57:18 AM »
I'm so glad as U.S. citizens we can manage another countries wildlife smh.  How about let's work on managing our wildlife.  Let's let them manage their own.  It's the U.S. citizen that goes and spends thousands of dollars to go shoot an elephant that gives us all a bad name! Kinda like the lion guy.  Lifting this ban will increase poaching and the black market imo

The black market for ivory exists primarily in Asia and the middle east. Very little ivory gets smuggled into the US at least according a buddy who works for USFWS as an anti smuggling agent

What did the lion guy do wrong? What law did he break? Why wasn't he prosecuted?

The lion guy hunts Africa often and brought over $100k in US dollars to Africa over the years and that money supports the local economy and goes to anti poaching efforts. The meat from harvested game is donated to local villages. Do you know how many people an elephant can feed? A good deal of the native population would get zero protein without the animals shot by the evil trophy hunters. Americans and Europeans who are opposed to sport hunting in Africa have no clue about the living conditions there and the poverty levels and lack of food.

Its amazing that people who have never been to Africa and understand absolutely nothing about wildlife conservation, living conditions, the rampant poaching by the locals  want legal sport hunting shut down. Ironic the sport hunters bring tens of millions of dollars a year to Africa and people who complain do nothing and donate zero money to help out in African wildlife conservation.


Offline pianoman9701

  • Mushroom Man
  • Off-Topics
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Legend
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 26115
  • Location: Vancouver USA
  • NRA Life, MH, WFW, CCRKBA, NAGR, RMEF, WSB
Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
« Reply #42 on: November 19, 2017, 11:02:43 AM »
So admittedly sometimes I donít see both sides of the coin in situations like this. How would the lifting of the ivory ban be a good thing? I see lots of potential negatives here from increased poaching etc because the value of ivory will go up. I donít see the benefits though. Not trying to sound like a dummy. I just donít see the benefits specific to elephants and ivory. That could be just me. Iím a little thick headed sometimes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Importing trophies, especially ivory, include intense documentation of the hunt, the kill site, the animal's remains and their final disposition. It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for a trophy hunter to fake a kill just to get his/her hands on ivory. And why would you? Why wouldn't you just pay the money to go hunt the animal? In addition, the areas that have legal trophy hunting also have intense security to protect the resource. Game animal populations in those areas are healthy and protected due to the money coming in from the hunters. There is almost zero correlation between legal hunting and poaching in Africa. They don't happen in the same places. Take for example the area where Cecil was shot. When a hunting ban was introduced right after the news came out, security patrols were canceled and immediately, poaching caused the deaths of 60+ elephants. It is thought likely that some of the former park security were involved when that money for their paychecks dried up. Since, trophy hunting has been reinstated and the poaching has diminished.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline jackelope

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (+21)
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2007
  • Posts: 35963
  • Location: Duvall, WA
  • Groups: WSB RMGA NRA RMEF BHA
Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
« Reply #43 on: November 19, 2017, 02:03:07 PM »
So admittedly sometimes I donít see both sides of the coin in situations like this. How would the lifting of the ivory ban be a good thing? I see lots of potential negatives here from increased poaching etc because the value of ivory will go up. I donít see the benefits though. Not trying to sound like a dummy. I just donít see the benefits specific to elephants and ivory. That could be just me. Iím a little thick headed sometimes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Poaching is exactly that, poaching. It goes on regardless of weather or not there is legal hunting. However it is proven that in areas without legal hunting poaching goes up because there is no longer any reason or money to protect the animals. The conservation minded hunter and his money are the best protections available.

I know you are a fan of sheep. What would happen if we closed down all legal hunting in WA and all the concerned parties (FNAWS, WDFW, ect) took their money and went away, but there were still people around the world willing to pay big money for a rams horns? Without any repercussions for their actions the same people who illegally gill net Lenore, trespass to collect sheds, or shoot elk off feed stations, would be climbing the mountains looking for a payday.

Legal importation of trophy ivory has zero affect on the price or availability of illegal (poached) ivory. A set of legally taken trophy tusks are never going to be on the black market, so they have no affect on the price or availability in Asia or other places where it is bought and sold. Trophy ivory, like sheep horns is very regulated.
Elephant hunting is legal though and used widely as a management tool in areas with elephant population issues. Itís just the import of ivory that is not currently legal. So whoís to say that once (hypothetically) ivory import is legalized and the demand for it in the US goes up, poaching doesnít go up? Iím not seeing the logic. Yet. Iím open minded, but Iím not on board yet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

My posts, opinions and statements do not represent those of this forum

Offline Britt-dog

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hunter
  • ***
  • Join Date: Aug 2008
  • Posts: 121
  • Location: Cheney
Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
« Reply #44 on: November 19, 2017, 02:40:13 PM »
So admittedly sometimes I donít see both sides of the coin in situations like this. How would the lifting of the ivory ban be a good thing? I see lots of potential negatives here from increased poaching etc because the value of ivory will go up. I donít see the benefits though. Not trying to sound like a dummy. I just donít see the benefits specific to elephants and ivory. That could be just me. Iím a little thick headed sometimes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Poaching is exactly that, poaching. It goes on regardless of weather or not there is legal hunting. However it is proven that in areas without legal hunting poaching goes up because there is no longer any reason or money to protect the animals. The conservation minded hunter and his money are the best protections available.

I know you are a fan of sheep. What would happen if we closed down all legal hunting in WA and all the concerned parties (FNAWS, WDFW, ect) took their money and went away, but there were still people around the world willing to pay big money for a rams horns? Without any repercussions for their actions the same people who illegally gill net Lenore, trespass to collect sheds, or shoot elk off feed stations, would be climbing the mountains looking for a payday.

Legal importation of trophy ivory has zero affect on the price or availability of illegal (poached) ivory. A set of legally taken trophy tusks are never going to be on the black market, so they have no affect on the price or availability in Asia or other places where it is bought and sold. Trophy ivory, like sheep horns is very regulated.
Elephant hunting is legal though and used widely as a management tool in areas with elephant population issues. Itís just the import of ivory that is not currently legal. So whoís to say that once (hypothetically) ivory import is legalized and the demand for it in the US goes up, poaching doesnít go up? Iím not seeing the logic. Yet. Iím open minded, but Iím not on board yet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The lifting of this ban does not legalize the wholesale import of ivory into the United States. It simply allows documented legally taken trophies to be brought home. Importation and sale of ivory from other sources will remain illegal. There is very little demand for ivory in the United states, it is almost all sent to Asian countries.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 03:58:46 PM by Britt-dog »

Online JimmyHoffa

  • Virtual Campfire
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Old Salt
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2010
  • Posts: 9826
  • Location: 150 Years Too Late
Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
« Reply #45 on: November 19, 2017, 02:51:03 PM »
Ivory is only banned for certain animals.  The times that elephant ivory is restricted makes it much more desirable for ivory mining in Siberia, where they dig up old mammoths.  Makes basically the same trinkets and potions in Asia with it.

Offline Dan-o

  • Site Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2010
  • Posts: 8437
Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
« Reply #46 on: November 19, 2017, 03:49:04 PM »
I'm so glad as U.S. citizens we can manage another countries wildlife smh.  How about let's work on managing our wildlife.  Let's let them manage their own.  It's the U.S. citizen that goes and spends thousands of dollars to go shoot an elephant that gives us all a bad name! Kinda like the lion guy.  Lifting this ban will increase poaching and the black market imo

I'm delighted to have the opportunity to clear up a few of your misconceptions regarding licensed trophy hunting in Africa. So, these countries are poor. Take the southern white rhino. In 1960, there were 800 left. Today, there are over 20K living in the wild. Their recovery is due almost completely to breeding programs, habitat improvement, and anti-poaching patrols paid for with trophy hunting dollars. Look it up. The Northern white rhino hasn't been legally hunted for 40 years and faces extinction within 5 years. They can't afford the anti-poaching patrols necessary to protect them. Their habitat has been ruined by poverty, farming, and war. The success of the southern rhino is true of more than a dozen species across Africa. You seriously need to learn about conservation and how licensed hunting saves species if you're going to be a representative of our hunting culture. This is the tip of the iceberg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_white_rhinoceros

The White Rhino case study is (to me) a perfect example of why it is good for species to be legally hunted.

I think the parallels probably hold true for elephants.

Personally, I have no interest in shooting an elephant, but I think if someone goes over and legally takes one, he should be able to bring back what he wants.
Member:   Yakstrakgutp (or whatever we are)
I love the BFRO!!!
I wonder how many people will touch their nose to their screen trying to read this...

Offline trophyhunt

  • Site Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2008
  • Posts: 9501
  • Location: Wetside
Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
« Reply #47 on: November 19, 2017, 03:55:30 PM »
Agree w dan-o, I could never kill an elephant, they are intelligent animals.  And my grandma loved them, sheíd come after me from the dead if I ever hunted one. I support all hunting and understand conservation, but just could never kill an elephant.
ďIn common withĒ..... not so much!!

Offline Britt-dog

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hunter
  • ***
  • Join Date: Aug 2008
  • Posts: 121
  • Location: Cheney
Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
« Reply #48 on: November 19, 2017, 04:06:53 PM »
Agree w dan-o, I could never kill an elephant, they are intelligent animals.  And my grandma loved them, sheíd come after me from the dead if I ever hunted one. I support all hunting and understand conservation, but just could never kill an elephant.

Please quantify at what level of intelligence, you are no longer whiling to kill an animal. Bears are very intelligent, as are coyotes, the difference between them and say Horses and Elephants is people have attached emotion to horses and elephants. Go live with elephants for a few years and I bet your opinion of them will change.

Offline trophyhunt

  • Site Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Old Salt
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2008
  • Posts: 9501
  • Location: Wetside
Re: Trump Administration Lifts Ban on Imports of Elephant Hunting Trophies
« Reply #49 on: November 19, 2017, 04:15:30 PM »
Agree w dan-o, I could never kill an elephant, they are intelligent animals.  And my grandma loved them, sheíd come after me from the dead if I ever hunted one. I support all hunting and understand conservation, but just could never kill an elephant.

Please quantify at what level of intelligence, you are no longer whiling to kill an animal. Bears are very intelligent, as are coyotes, the difference between them and say Horses and Elephants is people have attached emotion to horses and elephants. Go live with elephants for a few years and I bet your opinion of them will change.
Honestly the older I get the more I think about the intelligence of animals. I think most hunters donít live for the kill, itís the hunt we need.  Bears are smart, I have killed a few of them, Iím now picky about which bear Iíll take.  Passed up a medium sized bear this past spring.  Elephants to me are just too cool, and remember, I said Iíd never go against hunters rights even if Iíll never hunt that species. Coyotes are damn smart, but they kill a crap ton of small deer, and they will never be eaten by me, so they must die!   :chuckle:
ďIn common withĒ..... not so much!!

 

* Recent Topics

Firsr Lite Beanie - Pine Color by Elkaholic87
[Today at 06:53:11 PM]


Warne Scope Rings customer service top notch. by Biggerhammer
[Today at 06:50:25 PM]


FS Browning BAR 300 Win. Mag. w/Leupold Scope and extras by quack98282
[Today at 06:49:47 PM]


Opinions on buying new muzzleloader by Buck86
[Today at 06:49:39 PM]


300 WSM vs 300 Win mag by Buzz2401
[Today at 06:44:42 PM]


Fuel Pump/Filter or something else by BLDtraLR
[Today at 06:43:48 PM]


Coolant Problem 2000 GMC Sierra by JimmyHoffa
[Today at 06:36:28 PM]


Flex Seal, anyone use it? by Bofire
[Today at 06:36:09 PM]


FS / FT: Savage Lady Hunter .243 w/ leupold 3-9 scope by jrebel
[Today at 06:30:48 PM]


If you have a little extra this year please consider. by h20hunter
[Today at 06:14:50 PM]


WTB- First lite boundary stormtight pants medium realtree extra by Ridge Hunter
[Today at 06:02:19 PM]


Any report on Roosevelt? by mdbuck5x5
[Today at 05:45:10 PM]


Whats everyone tinkering with these days? by brokemillwright
[Today at 05:29:16 PM]


Tubari by Kit Carson
[Today at 05:17:51 PM]


FS: New RCBS FL Die Set for 270 Win Short Mag - Updated Price by goosehunter12
[Today at 05:17:36 PM]


Deer or Elk hunt in Utah by Branden
[Today at 05:14:15 PM]


Stumps and Teachermans NE WA line by TeacherMan
[Today at 05:01:45 PM]


SCI Seattle Sportsmens Auction and Dinner Feb 24th by bigelk1030
[Today at 04:59:05 PM]


FS: 315 pieces of .270 Winchester brass, some Nickel plated. by Biggerhammer
[Today at 04:51:09 PM]


Keegan Wilder fundraiser auction #18 Black River Taxidermy shoulder mount!!! by jackelope
[Today at 04:17:40 PM]