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Author Topic: Salmon fishing/Not likley  (Read 3411 times)

Offline MADMAX

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Re: Salmon fishing/Not likley
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2017, 05:56:47 AM »
Need 5 years of no commercial native or nonnative inside the straits all the way inside to Oly
Some predator control on Seals and sea lions.

There are still rivers that are gorgeous free flowing that never see a fish run.
Nature would heal itself
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Offline hunthard

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Re: Salmon fishing/Not likley
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2017, 06:01:20 AM »
Sorry but as river that has no fish run can't heal itself.

Offline MADMAX

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Re: Salmon fishing/Not likley
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2017, 06:25:03 AM »
gotcha thanks :yeah:
try and get the point
quit netting them
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Offline JimmyHoffa

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Re: Salmon fishing/Not likley
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2017, 09:34:06 AM »
Sure they can.  A certain percentage of fish stray and go into rivers and start new runs.  Salmon/steelhead/rainbows were originally from Mexico and kept working their way up as new rivers came available when the ice receded.  If they didn't stray and mix genetically, then there would be tens of thousands of different kinds of salmon that all looked different and were of different sizes.  As it is now, they are all basically the same--a king from California is virtually identical to a king in Alaska and all the kings in between.  If there's no biomass in the river when they get to it, it is really unlikely that a run will ever start.

Offline WSU

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Re: Salmon fishing/Not likley
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2017, 10:55:41 AM »
Lots of misunderstanding of fish, seasons, and biology going on here.  Too much to parse, but suffice to say, the number one thing we could do to curtail harvest is cut harvest in Alaska and Canada.  Far more harvest occurs north of our border than once the fish finally return.

As much as it goes against the mantra folks have been speaking for decades, netting fish in the river is the most effective way to control harvest.  When we catch 80% of the harvested fish in the open ocean, we have no idea if they are from a healthy run or one listed under the ESA.  They fish are all mixed and there is no way to control.  If you wait until they return, not only can you control which runs you harvest, but the fish are also as large as they are going to get because we aren't harvesting them as juveniles.

Offline hunthard

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Re: Salmon fishing/Not likley
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2017, 11:38:44 PM »
Very good point WSU, there are way to many hands in the cookie jar.

Offline Tinmaniac

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Re: Salmon fishing/Not likley
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2017, 07:00:33 AM »
Lots of misunderstanding of fish, seasons, and biology going on here.  Too much to parse, but suffice to say, the number one thing we could do to curtail harvest is cut harvest in Alaska and Canada.  Far more harvest occurs north of our border than once the fish finally return.

As much as it goes against the mantra folks have been speaking for decades, netting fish in the river is the most effective way to control harvest.  When we catch 80% of the harvested fish in the open ocean, we have no idea if they are from a healthy run or one listed under the ESA.  They fish are all mixed and there is no way to control.  If you wait until they return, not only can you control which runs you harvest, but the fish are also as large as they are going to get because we aren't harvesting them as juveniles.
Besides mesh size how is a gill net selective?

Offline WSU

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Re: Salmon fishing/Not likley
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2017, 08:41:11 AM »
Location and time.

Offline Tinmaniac

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Re: Salmon fishing/Not likley
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2017, 09:00:10 AM »
Location and time.
I agree,when I know the location of the nets and the time they are in the river I stay away.When the nets are in fishing is terrible.My point is the gill nets kill tens of thousands of ESA listed fish.

Offline WSU

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Re: Salmon fishing/Not likley
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2017, 09:38:06 AM »
Alaska and Canada kill hundreds of thousands of fish and far more than our terminal net fisheries.  If you are interested, I can post a link that has all the numbers broken down.

Offline Skillet

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Re: Salmon fishing/Not likley
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2017, 10:23:38 AM »
I'd sure be curious to see those numbers.  Thanks-
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Offline j_h_nimrod

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Re: Salmon fishing/Not likley
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2017, 10:28:44 AM »
Alaska and Canada kill hundreds of thousands of fish and far more than our terminal net fisheries.  If you are interested, I can post a link that has all the numbers broken down.

Offline WSU

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Re: Salmon fishing/Not likley
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2017, 10:30:08 AM »
Here’s the link: http://www.psc.org/publications/technical-reports/technical-committee-reports/chinook/

The reports titled “Annual Report of Catch and Escapement for 20xx” show catches by all the various fisheries, details on stock escapements, etc. for chinook

The reports titled “20xx Exploitation Rate Analysis and Model Calibration” show by fishery where each stock is caught (or experiences mortality due to fisheries).

There is a ton of information in these reports, but they are the most comprehensive single source I know of for what you are looking for.

This is from the pacific salmon commission.

Offline Skillet

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Re: Salmon fishing/Not likley
« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2017, 10:31:55 AM »
Roger, thank you for the link. 
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Offline JimmyHoffa

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Re: Salmon fishing/Not likley
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2017, 10:32:58 AM »
I'd sure be curious to see those numbers.  Thanks-
I've seen a few of the numbers before.  I think the worst was the Hoko river out by Sekiu, with 95% intercept before making it to the strait.  The Elwha was like 88% or 85%, which is kind of why hardly anyone thinks the dam removal project will restore historic fish runs.

Offline j_h_nimrod

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Re: Salmon fishing/Not likley
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2017, 11:00:44 AM »
Alaska and Canada kill hundreds of thousands of fish and far more than our terminal net fisheries.  If you are interested, I can post a link that has all the numbers broken down.

I would be interested to see this as well.

Lots of misunderstanding of fish, seasons, and biology going on here.  Too much to parse, but suffice to say, the number one thing we could do to curtail harvest is cut harvest in Alaska and Canada.  Far more harvest occurs north of our border than once the fish finally return.  Far more fish are produced wildly and in hatcheries North of the Straits then WA, in season management and management in general are far superior in CAN and AK ten in WA as well. Fishing by AK, CAN, and the other salmon producing states is managed by international treaties and annual season setting that is very science intensive and thorough.

As much as it goes against the mantra folks have been speaking for decades, netting fish in the river is the most effective way to control harvest. Yes and no, in an ocean fishery the fish do not randomly mix. Certain runs hit certain corridors and many fisheries are hitting certain terminal areas for certain stocks.  It is not a random barrel of fish taking whatever is there. Certain areas have been restricted because of the interception rate of non-target stocks. When we catch 80% of the harvested fish in the open ocean, we have no idea if they are from a healthy run or one listed under the ESA.  They fish are all mixed and there is no way to control.  If you wait until they return, not only can you control which runs you harvest, but the fish are also as large as they are going to get because we aren't harvesting them as juveniles. I’m not sure what you mean about harvesting juveniles, there is little to no market for jacks and the majority of actual juveniles are in the high seas.  As far as river fisheries go, you are now fishing on a fist that has expended a significant portion of its fat and energy reserves returning to its natal stream while producing mature gametes.  You are essentially fishing on the fish that are the most fit to reproduce in that watershed when they have already started to lose flesh quality. This is the reason winter kings are so highly prized, highest fat content and immature gametes. Rivers are certainly easier to fish, but, among other reasons, this is a reason the majority of commercial fisheries are in the open ocean.

Offline Skillet

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Re: Salmon fishing/Not likley
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2017, 11:02:25 AM »
Yep, it is what king salmon do - get out of the rivers, migrate north to the rich Gulf of Alaska feeding grounds and grow for three-ish years on the rich northern biomass of feed.  Very few commercially caught fish species don't cross artificial man-made political borders, and fewer care that they do.

This is only anectdotal, but I've caught two Sacramento River hatchery kings out on the Fairweather Grounds. They really travel.
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Offline WSU

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Re: Salmon fishing/Not likley
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2017, 11:11:21 AM »
Skillet - if you look at the numbers, the SE AK troll harvests heavily on a lot of southern stocks. I’d bet you’ve caught fish from a lot of interesting places.

I fished the north tip of queen Charlotte island this summer.  Like se ak, I’m sure the kings were a big mix of south bound fish. It was interesting to look at the kings and how different they look from stock to stock. I’ve seen it here in Washington obviously but it was interesting to look at dozens of kings over 4 days. We caught one that I’d bet money was hatchery tule, some that looked like urbs and some a variety of other stocks.

Offline WSU

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Re: Salmon fishing/Not likley
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2017, 11:14:01 AM »
Jh - the numbers don’t lie.

And by harvesting juveniles, I mean that all those smaller kings caught over the 3 years they are feeding up north aren’t nature yet. They’d be a lot bigger if we let them grow another 2 or 4 years.

Offline gaddy

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Re: Salmon fishing/Not likley
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2017, 03:09:20 PM »
I have to ask those that have way more knowledge than I, about Salmon. What impact does illegal fishing from other countries have on our runs? I remember watching a documentary on Salmon that showed satellite footage showing a fleet of Asian ships scooping up whole schools of Salmon in US territorial waters, then escaping into international waters before they could be intercepted. Kind of like a dine and dash. They evidently monitored where the Coast Guard boats were.
Then Japan had the tsunami that wiped out their fishing fleet. It seems that after that, we had some really high return numbers for a few years. Some years later, here we are shutting down seasons, or limiting catch numbers.
I hear about ocean conditions, water temps etc.. but have to wonder if the fish are ending up as sushi somewhere, or taken by sovereign nations
(foreign) other than the US or Canada.
Am I way off base here ?

Offline hunthard

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Re: Salmon fishing/Not likley
« Reply #45 on: December 17, 2017, 12:01:52 AM »
Here's a question for you, if all our fish runs migrate up to Alaska to feed and then come back, where do all the Alaskan fish go, the one that were born in the rivers in Alaska?

Offline JimmyHoffa

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Re: Salmon fishing/Not likley
« Reply #46 on: December 17, 2017, 09:48:33 AM »
I think most of the AK fish stay near AK, some head over toward Russia and northern Japan.  The maps I remember seeing had the WA fish that were closest to the coast going to the Western Gulf of Alaska.  The Puget Sound fish going more toward the central part.  Lower Columbia river fish going more to the SE Gulf and around Northern British Columbia.  The fish that would hang around off the WA and OR coasts had a lot from Idaho and way up the Columbia, and lots from California/S Oregon.

Offline W_Ellison2011

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Re: Salmon fishing/Not likley
« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2017, 05:29:12 PM »
I also have a question about this subject. How is it that the Average salmon caught in Alaska is much bigger than in Washington state if all of the salmon we get back are coming from all the way up there? I'm speaking from experience btw. I lived in Alaska for a short time and fished there as much as I could. The average Coho up there is 10+ lbs and the average king is 20+ lbs.. here in Washington that's a much smaller number. Another thing I have to ask about is that Pink salmon run every year in Alaska whereas here in Washington we get a run every other year. how does that make sense? I get that some of our fish go that far north but I feel like most of our salmon go mainly up into Canadian waters or just further out into the ocean. I could be completely wrong... but then again in all the years I have fished Washington state I have only pulled up a hand full of kings that were 20 lbs or more and silvers are 6-8 lbs if you are lucky. The pinks we caught up there were also bigger. 8-10 lbs average! The pinks we get down here are like 3-5 lbs. Just my  :twocents: but feel free to fill me in if you have any info. I love salmon fishing and will continue to do so in the future.. just not in Washington state, unless its the hump or if I go with a charter on the Columbia lol. Btw, I'm talking sport fishing more than netting and yes I know there is a big difference in catch. My biggest king is a hair under 40 lbs and that was in Canada up on Queen Charlotte island and my biggest silver was while I was living in Ketchikan, Alaska and it was 16 lbs. I WANT TO GO BACK!  :chuckle:

Offline deerlick

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Re: Salmon fishing/Not likley
« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2017, 07:51:57 PM »
It's tough when they are sorted through before we see em down here

Offline Duckslayer89

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Re: Salmon fishing/Not likley
« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2017, 08:08:50 PM »
I also have a question about this subject. How is it that the Average salmon caught in Alaska is much bigger than in Washington state if all of the salmon we get back are coming from all the way up there? I'm speaking from experience btw. I lived in Alaska for a short time and fished there as much as I could. The average Coho up there is 10+ lbs and the average king is 20+ lbs.. here in Washington that's a much smaller number. Another thing I have to ask about is that Pink salmon run every year in Alaska whereas here in Washington we get a run every other year. how does that make sense? I get that some of our fish go that far north but I feel like most of our salmon go mainly up into Canadian waters or just further out into the ocean. I could be completely wrong... but then again in all the years I have fished Washington state I have only pulled up a hand full of kings that were 20 lbs or more and silvers are 6-8 lbs if you are lucky. The pinks we caught up there were also bigger. 8-10 lbs average! The pinks we get down here are like 3-5 lbs. Just my  :twocents: but feel free to fill me in if you have any info. I love salmon fishing and will continue to do so in the future.. just not in Washington state, unless its the hump or if I go with a charter on the Columbia lol. Btw, I'm talking sport fishing more than netting and yes I know there is a big difference in catch. My biggest king is a hair under 40 lbs and that was in Canada up on Queen Charlotte island and my biggest silver was while I was living in Ketchikan, Alaska and it was 16 lbs. I WANT TO GO BACK!  :chuckle:

10+ pound average is far fetched. I worked on a salmon tender throughout the whole troll season in SE Alaska and saw 10s of thousands of coho I think the average was 5-7 pounds as the season got later.
@skillet

 

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