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E-collar Training

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chukardogs:
 My first two English Setters were my introduction into upland bird dogs. I'd grown up around Labs and Golden Retrievers. I did all my training based on what I learned from reading and talking to a few professional bird dog trainers. I had a trainer from South Carolina that owned a huge, 100+ dog training facility, tell me after learning I had English Setters, teach them come, sit, stay, be able to slow them down with a whoa and they're going to teach you far more than you ever teach them. Over the next 20 years, that's exactly what happened. Our breeder told me, you'll be lucky to get one of your Setters to retrieve. I used the force fetch method of training. It worked exactly as they said it would. I got the first dog to retrieve in and out of water and the other dog to do everything but hold the dummy for more than a second or two. He'd go get it, pick it up, carry it for a sec or two, then spit it out. I figured hey, I'm golden, having one that will retrieve is all I need.
 That Christmas, my wife bought us a set of Garmin sport collars. Knowing nothing about them, I learned to love the beep (recall) feature. No more whistles! I learned early on with our second dog, that he had buck fever as bad as I did and the E-collars shocking feature was the only way to turn him around and get him off of anything that would run from him. When he found an animal that wouldn't run or that would actually chase him back, he wasn't hard to find. With the Moose population growing where I hunt Blue Grouse and a Setter that couldn't help himself, I thought, these collars are awesome!   
 That next fall on our last trip Grouse trip, my 3 year old retrieving, collar wearing Setter, retrieved a Blue Grouse exactly as it would have happened on TV, as the dog bounded up the hill with the bird flopping around all willy nilly, I bent down to take the Grouse. The dog eyes went to my hand and you could see the thought, uh-uh, get your own bird and he bounded by me and went up the hill like he was really something. I thought, what the heck, where'd this come from? With the collar set about midway on the scale, I shocked him. The dog, still on the run had actually turned and started back down the hill, possibly to give me the bird. When the shock was delivered, two things happened, the first the most obvious was the Grouse flew out of the dogs mouth and bounced down the hill, landing fairly close to my feet. The second thing that happened was just as obvious but didn't become completely clear until early the next fall in the very same place where another Blue Grouse went down. That same dog, bounded down the hill to retrieve the bird and when the word fetch, left my lips, the dog spun around, leaving the bird laying right where it was and ran back up the hill and sat down behind me. The look on the dogs face was as clear as if he'd have written an essay on what happens if you shock me. As I stood there, I could think nothing to myself but what the heck did you expect? The look on the dogs face when I shocked him the fall before, had told me everything I needed to know about E-collars. The only funny thing about this story is the other Setter (Buck) who wouldn't hold a dummy in his mouth for two seconds, went down, picked up the flopping bird and came back and layed it at my feet. He retrieved every bird I shot from that moment on. God I miss that damn dog! 
 Like people, no two dogs are alike and most ain't stupid. The little bit of pain that a dog feels when using for example, the force fetch method, comes from you, your hand on their ear. They know exactly what's causing it and where the pain is coming from and immediately understand by opening their mouth and taking the dummy, the pain stops. My belief is, there's no direct correlation with an E-collar. They absolutely feel the pain, but don't quite grasp how the heck it's happening. Just like a person, a dog can't learn if their confused. I remember sitting in Algebra class and thinking X=Y makes no sense. If something had shocked me to boot, I'd have been out, done, finished and gone.
 Yes, no doubt, absolutely, some dogs may learn really well with an E-collar and like everything else, it's how you use it that matters, got it!
 Neither of my two Setters wear them in the field when hunting now. I tried to throw the collars out a couple months ago and my wife got a little pissy. I train the dogs to recall on a whistle, make a loop around behind me when needed just to keep them from ranging out too far. I'm getting too old for Setters. With Wolves, Cougars and Moose on the loose, I like the dogs to roam a little closer these days because I can't defend them from lions, tigers and bears if they're 200 yards out.
 If you decide to use the collars, make sure the dog is completely clear on the command and why they're being corrected.
 And last but not least, don't ever let a kid get a hold of the controller. Your dog will never recover from getting shocked for the shear joy of seeing them jump. Dogs may have a short attention span but they don't forget anything that hurts. Our first Setter got hit in the butt by a spring loaded gate at the dog park when he was about a year old. He yelped in pain and from that day on till he died, he went through that gate backwards so he could watch it close behind him.
 Good luck, bird dogs rock!

Fishhunt223:
An e collar is an incredibly versatile tool for dog training of any kind, but you must take the time to learn how to use it before you ever put it on your dog. I could write for days on how to use one for different types of training, but there are numerous good books available on Amazon that will explain in far better detail than an Internet forum.  I recommend the book “Tips and Tales” by George Decosta as an excellent place to start. I have been training dogs in the hunting and field trial world for a long time and I still learned a lot reading his book. He has an excellent podcast out as well. 

I think you are setting yourself and your dog up for failure by using the tone feature as a warning. If you are using the collar correctly, the shock is no more intense for the dog than a check cord, and far less intense than the vibrate function. Giving a static shock correction should generally not be painful for the dog. When you set your the collar up, you are going to first put the collar on the dog for a few hours at a time for at least several weeks before you even pull the transmitter out.  The collar also needs to be fit properly(probably tighter than you think).  At the point that you are finally ready to use the transmitter, you are going to have the dog in a neutral environment (like your back yard), and not paying attention to you. You are going to start at the lowest possible level, and give the dog a correction. He probably is not going to respond at all at first. You are going to raise the level on the transmitter until you see some reaction from your dog. It is going to be subtle, maybe perking of an ear, looking down, turning his head, etc. It should never appear painful. Now record this level as your dog’s resting stimulation level. Now when you start training with the collar, this is where you are going to start.  As your dog is more excited, more distracted, etc., you will need to increase the stimulation slightly. At this point you can use the collar very similar to how you would a check cord, applying and removing pressure as needed.

Many people, including myself, use the tone feature as a recall command. You can use it for any command of your choosing, and some people use multiple tones for different commands. Maybe one beep is whoa, two beeps is recall, etc. I have yet to see anyone successfully use the tone as a “warning” before getting a stimulation.

I encourage you to try out all of the tools that are available to you, but above all else, develop a bond and relationship with your dog so that he wants to work FOR you. It sounds like you are well on your way to having a great hunting companion!

callturner:
And no where here have I seen the words collar conditioning to a command ( here comes to mind) or force fetching.

BearGuy1:
Thank you everyone for the advice on this! Very helpful and informative.

BearGuy1:
Also, one thing to clarify after reading my post is that the tone is to be a recall "here" command for when he is to far out to hear my voice or whistle clearly. I am aware that he wont understand what I want if its not associated with a command.

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