Big money Bulls. Is jealousy really the answer?

[blackveltbowhunter]

   I don't want to derail record bull thread anymore than it is, so I thought I would pose the question here.
 
  I think its readily apparent anytime a big bull is posted the "jealousy" label gets slapped up more times than Fauci saying "stop the spread" during a covid press conference.

   My question is, is it it really that simple? Is any comment that questions the validity, or is not a glowing affirmation of the hunters prowess and skill driven solely by this single emotion.

   Personally, I think jealousy by and large has very little to do with it. Obviously jealousy exists I am not denying that. However, hunting when viewed as a "sport" by a group is unique and may be the only sport that has no scale upon which to measure the individuals accomplishments. The individual by the nature of taking a life, should be satisfied with their results. But once shared they open themselves up to criticism upon which there are no written rules ( after the legal ones ) to compare the level of "good".
   In sports like basketball, football, golf etc..., there are rigidly defined parameters that govern all players in a specific era and level. Determining the level of skill needed to achieve or excel is easy. In other words, you cannot pay enough to get someone to lower the basket so you can win a dunking contest against Jordan. Contest sports ( which i categorize hunting in ) like boxing or UFC get a little more sideways because competition can to some extent be chosen. Still, its pretty transparent and relatively easy to spot when a contender is ducking another or weighing the odds in their favor.

   By and large I think most hunters that raise questions are not doing so because they are jealous, but because they want a reference for comparisons. Specifically comparisons to their own styles or self imposed rules. 

   Big bulls and bucks area always cool. But being the highest score TO ME has little to do with that animals ability to survive, to grow, or most pertinent to this topic escape and evade hunters.

   The truth cold and hard as it is, is this. No free range animal living on hay bales in back yards, with limited to no hunting pressure, in the proximity of humans, possibly driven off home field advantage due to snow, is comparable when being hunted to an animal who is not blessed with those gifts. I think some folks believe that because they utilize their money or other resources to get them access to those types of animals who are not as equipped to deal with hunter pressure, they will be categorized differently than others. And they will. That doesn't make those who are judging jealous, it just makes a more equitable comparison. It reminds me of the scene in rocky 3 when Mick tell Rocky that he would get killed in a fight against Clubber, and his title defenses were against handpicked fighters.

   I don't get why it bothers anyone at all on either side. If it does, do something about it instead of throwing labels.

 
 

[trophyhunt]

I don’t believe jealousy has anything to do with it, where there is smoke there is fire.  The way the son claimed this bull was hunted had nothing to do with the final result.  The locals know how this majestic bull went down, it wasn’t portrayed that way.  Huntwa doesn’t want truth, they want good feelings, it’s called woke!  I will prob be banned for life for this but it’s true.  Great bull, not sure it will ever be beat, but if it does, I hope it’s not in someone’s yard eating alfalfa.

[TimberMuleys]

I don’t believe jealousy has anything to do with it, where there is smoke there is fire.  The way the son claimed this bull was hunted had nothing to do with the final result.  The locals know how this majestic bull went down, it wasn’t portrayed that way.  Huntwa doesn’t want truth, they want good feelings, it’s called woke!  I will prob be banned for life for this but it’s true.  Great bull, not sure it will ever be beat, but if it does, I hope it’s not in someone’s yard eating alfalfa.

Agreed.


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[slavenoid]

I don't know any details other than speculation from Facebook. Im not above baiting a big human adapted bull, but I wouldn't go out of my way to make a public post trying to paint a different story. Not jealous just don't really care for deception. Again I know nothing just following along.

[baldopepper]

Heck, used to get jealous of other hunters all the time
Was always the same reason, I had to.leave early to go back to school and later work and they had more time  off to hunt. I never got jealous of someone who worked harder or got luckier than me, just wished it had been my luck to get the animal. People who hang big trophies on their wall have to deal with their own conscience about how they really got it and the true or false story they tell of taking it.

[Magnum_Willys]

The sense of accomplishment is in direct proportion to the degree of difficulty.

[kentrek]

The sense of accomplishment is in direct proportion to the degree of difficulty.

And whats difficult to you may be very easy to me...or vise versa

Its up to each hunter to define there difficult

[Romulus1297]

Geez Christ some people. He can go to Chelan Falls and climb around the butte and arrow the biggest Ram with his dad on the last day with nobody helping come on.

[Skillet]

There is definitely some jealousy, but that not the main issue.  It's projection.  People can't accept another person's success using methods that don't align with their own ethics. 

We had a huge ethics thread earlier this year, this is just an extension of it. 

 

[2MANY]

Who cares.
Nice bull dead.

Obviously dude and son want to be notorious or they wouldn't have posted pictures of themselves.

[mr.ktm95]

If this bull would have been a 300 inch 6 point no one would have cared as much as the elk that was killed. I keep hearing stuff about how wealthy guys can go out and do these cool hunts. I’m not sure about everyone else, but I’m glad to see guys with deep pockets paying for these hunts. They are supporting the cause more than most. The raffles and governors tag are adding to the resources. It’s sickening to see some of these big corporate companies coming out with public comment how they are against hunting. We need the big guys and the small guys to come together to keep conservation in check and at the end of the day it’s all about money and power. People will complain and judge when there is a big animal killed- no matter the story or the circumstance, we see it every year on almost every post here and on social media.

[str8meat]

That bull was once little, he had to fight the natural world. Some are born lucky than others. Play the cards your dealt. Don’t be jealous, envious sure but jealous of someone else’s money or ability to hunt an animal of that caliber is just foolish. We are fortunate enough to hunt elk every year if we choose. I read the posts every year of people with all these points for big bulls and can’t get drawn, I have over 20 and still waiting my turn, but we still get to hunt elk. Washington is not like Michigan where you draw any elk tag and it’s considered once in a lifetime, or an antler less permit which doesn’t allow you to APPLY for 10 years. We really don’t have it that bad. Congratulations to the bull, congratulations to the hunter and thank the almighty for putting something like that on this planet for us.

[CarbonHunter]

I think some people maybe jealous but for the most part people were just curious. It was only after it came out that this was not the hunt it was claimed to be that people who know the guy or feel for him started to call others jealous.

[Bows4huntn]

One thing I see posted a lot about these raffle tags and auction tags is how these big spenders are helping so much with the conservation of whichever species they are buying tags for. I know the money must be going somewhere, but I can’t remember any tag numbers for us normal hunters increasing even one time since these special tags were implemented. The opposite seems to be true where seasons keep getting shorter and “ quality “ permit numbers continue to decline. I think that’s where some of this so called jealousy arises from. 1 guy has numerous big horn sheep and monster bulls while the rest of us are limited to one tag in your life, all because of money? Maybe the OIL rules should apply to these raffle and auction tags also for the true OIL species?

[Ghost Hunter]

I think some people maybe jealous but for the most part people were just curious. It was only after it came out that this was not the hunt it was claimed to be that people who know the guy or feel for him started to call others jealous.

If it wasn't blown up as bad as it has on HW and every other social media, maybe, just maybe, the word wouldn't spread like wildfire as to the unit.   :'(  Curious to see what the little guy's odds are in following years.  Might have to throw my hat in the ring for another round.   

[CarbonHunter]

One thing I see posted a lot about these raffle tags and auction tags is how these big spenders are helping so much with the conservation of whichever species they are buying tags for. I know the money must be going somewhere, but I can’t remember any tag numbers for us normal hunters increasing even one time since these special tags were implemented. The opposite seems to be true where seasons keep getting shorter and “ quality “ permit numbers continue to decline. I think that’s where some of this so called jealousy arises from. 1 guy has numerous big horn sheep and monster bulls while the rest of us are limited to one tag in your life, all because of money? Maybe the OIL rules should apply to these raffle and auction tags also for the true OIL species?

I don’t think these auction tags are contributing to the decline of opportunity for our draw system. The main issues with the decline of opportunities is tribal hunting and poaching removing the quality animals for the pool for permits to be issued for. Followed by disease and lost of habitat.

Where money truly impacts hunting is when they are buying up the land and either locking out the hunters or developing the land.

[chukarchaser]

You forgot bears, cats and wolves.  Every unit in this state has at least two of the three impacting our game animals. Most of the quality units have all three.

[Bows4huntn]

I wasn’t insinuating that these tags were contributing to the decline of the regular opportunities, except every one of these tags is one tag that could be added for an everyday person like myself to have a chance to draw ? And I guess maybe the money these tags bring in is slowing the decline of the animals overall but who knows?

[chukardogs]

 I try not to judge. That's something I stress for myself. First and foremost, give every person or situation the benefit of the doubt and look at it from a fresh unbiased mind. (You can quit laughing now)
 There are times that I'm successful in that endeavor and then others, not so much.
 That said, I don't understand the jealousy aspect. What would a person be jealous of? There may be some envy going on but jealousy is a big stretch.
 If it comes out that this animal was hazed until it moved onto a piece of land where it could be killed, my issue isn't the killing of this animal, it's the idea that every hunter will be now painted with that same brush. At this point, I can only hope this animal will be more than a set of antlers and be appreciated by the community that it will feed.
 Hunters are humans first. Humans are flawed animals with the ability to workout complex issues. Based on the current predator/prey environmental shift going on, man's finding that deer, elk and moose have brains also. Some of these animals have looked around and decided that the safest place for me is right beside humans. I find it amazing how much can change in one hundred years! Can you imagine what would have happened during the great depression if a deer, elk or moose walked within eye sight of civilization? I wonder if the anti's would have been front and center with signs and bull horns or forks and knives? Of course, people are encroaching on the land that animals have been living on for a millennium. The result is the same. Animals are living within and not leaving populated areas. 
 I, like some, find the idea of shooting an animal that has been feeding on alfalfa in someones front yard, to be repugnant. Not because I have a problem with the killing of the animal but because it doesn't fit within my idea of fair chase. That said, I've been lucky enough to have grown up and lived during a time where I had the luxury to be what I believe is ethical.
 We all have our opinions of what is right or wrong. Where did we get these opinions and ideas of right or wrong? A few years back, I watched my one year old English Setter point the second Blue Grouse he ever encountered. Why, instinct? Do humans instinctively know what's right and wrong? Dogs sure don't. That same Setter will take a full chicken carcass out of the center of the dining room table and walk out the back door and sit on the porch and devour the entire bird if you let him. He won't move unless he thinks you're going to take it from him and once you've caught him, he may growl at you when you do. Only after being manhandled and corrected, will he give up the bird. I'd love to say, he won't do it again but that just ain't the case.
 Just like dogs, (my belief is), a human learns right and wrong from their environment. Because no two humans are brought up in the exact same environment and our environment is changing daily, no two humans have the same sense of right and wrong. This means we as hunters, non-hunters and anti-hunters or hypocrits if you will, will all look at this specific situation differently. Social media just brings all these different beliefs, front and center.
 Do hunters or humans need to change their sense of right and wrong? Who knows? It seems to me that at the very least, for our own health, we need to accept that things are changing rapidly and there are things and situations happening that we may not find acceptable and ultimately, this or that has to be okay.

[CarbonHunter]

I think people who use the word “jealous” to describe people who they do not like what was said is just a cop out unless you can actually point to an example of jealousy.

The stereotype’s that people use when they don’t have the answer or are trying to deflect is everywhere and in the days of social media sometimes it is all we hear. No different than back in the days of the Salem witch trials but when we burn them at the stick today it is figuratively and not literally.

[7mmBuckley]

Didn't you pack salt in to a location to attract your deer and have it become habituated to a certain location and the scent of you being there? What's the difference? You probably have more photos of your deer than this guy does of his elk alive.

That’s not even close to the same thing. And if you can’t see the difference then you’re the problem with hunting today. I packed in salt 5 months and 4 days before I shot my buck. And it only came to the salt lick 3 times before the season began and hadn’t been to the salt in 5 weeks before I shot it. I wasn’t trying to get it “habituated” to anything, I was trying to see what was living in an area and be able to target the most mature buck. I shot my buck almost 4 miles from any roads and over 2000 feet of elevation gain from my pickup. The difference is I worked by butt off for a buck that nobody else knew about and was happy with that. I didn’t lie about it and actually shoot it in my neighborhood where it was eating under my apple tree the day before. Casey’s son Beau is acting like it was a grueling hunt for months and this bull “reappeared” in December and they finally got it done on the last day. I don’t know the details of the hunt, nor does it really matter as long as it was legal. But it is not even close to the same, mine was an otc tag that anyone in the world with a hunters license can buy. His bull was on a raffle tag in which you can hunt for 5 months straight and he didn’t get it done until it came down by people’s yards. Am I saying I wouldn’t have shot the bull? Absolutely not, I would’ve shot that bull in a heartbeat. However, if I had shot it, I would’ve came clean and told everyone the truth of the story, which they still haven’t done. Everything about this bull is hear say so far and that is why it is so controversial. If they had came clean and said, we shot this bull the second it crossed onto public from so and so’s yard full of hay, the story would’ve lost its luster, but at least everyone would’ve known the truth.


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[/quote]


You nailed it!!! The hunters kid has caused a ton of people to chime in. Keep your mouth shut and move on BUT when you attempt to paint a picture as this was a DIY hunt for 4 months when it was shot just off of a apple pile in someone’s pasture is plain and simple IT IS WRONG!! He wanted attention and he got it!!! Your post is spot on!!

[Tbar]

   I don't want to derail record bull thread anymore than it is, so I thought I would pose the question here.
 
  I think its readily apparent anytime a big bull is posted the "jealousy" label gets slapped up more times than Fauci saying "stop the spread" during a covid press conference.

   My question is, is it it really that simple? Is any comment that questions the validity, or is not a glowing affirmation of the hunters prowess and skill driven solely by this single emotion.

   Personally, I think jealousy by and large has very little to do with it. Obviously jealousy exists I am not denying that. However, hunting when viewed as a "sport" by a group is unique and may be the only sport that has no scale upon which to measure the individuals accomplishments. The individual by the nature of taking a life, should be satisfied with their results. But once shared they open themselves up to criticism upon which there are no written rules ( after the legal ones ) to compare the level of "good".
   In sports like basketball, football, golf etc..., there are rigidly defined parameters that govern all players in a specific era and level. Determining the level of skill needed to achieve or excel is easy. In other words, you cannot pay enough to get someone to lower the basket so you can win a dunking contest against Jordan. Contest sports ( which i categorize hunting in ) like boxing or UFC get a little more sideways because competition can to some extent be chosen. Still, its pretty transparent and relatively easy to spot when a contender is ducking another or weighing the odds in their favor.

   By and large I think most hunters that raise questions are not doing so because they are jealous, but because they want a reference for comparisons. Specifically comparisons to their own styles or self imposed rules. 

   Big bulls and bucks area always cool. But being the highest score TO ME has little to do with that animals ability to survive, to grow, or most pertinent to this topic escape and evade hunters.

   The truth cold and hard as it is, is this. No free range animal living on hay bales in back yards, with limited to no hunting pressure, in the proximity of humans, possibly driven off home field advantage due to snow, is comparable when being hunted to an animal who is not blessed with those gifts. I think some folks believe that because they utilize their money or other resources to get them access to those types of animals who are not as equipped to deal with hunter pressure, they will be categorized differently than others. And they will. That doesn't make those who are judging jealous, it just makes a more equitable comparison. It reminds me of the scene in rocky 3 when Mick tell Rocky that he would get killed in a fight against Clubber, and his title defenses were against handpicked fighters.

   I don't get why it bothers anyone at all on either side. If it does, do something about it instead of throwing labels.

 

This is a strange question especially coming from you.  I remember a comment to the effect of "it was just a 5 point, nothing special". To me there was a large spectrum of emotions coming from a highly skilled hunter(you). I believe emotions including jealousy are not all bad,  at times you can be jealous and appreciate things at the same time and both are okay.  Hunting is just so much more and does so much more than just classifying it as a competitive sport as stated yet actions represent other emotions invoked including jealousy in other settings.

[280ackley]

Didn't you pack salt in to a location to attract your deer and have it become habituated to a certain location and the scent of you being there? What's the difference? You probably have more photos of your deer than this guy does of his elk alive.

That’s not even close to the same thing. And if you can’t see the difference then you’re the problem with hunting today. I packed in salt 5 months and 4 days before I shot my buck. And it only came to the salt lick 3 times before the season began and hadn’t been to the salt in 5 weeks before I shot it. I wasn’t trying to get it “habituated” to anything, I was trying to see what was living in an area and be able to target the most mature buck. I shot my buck almost 4 miles from any roads and over 2000 feet of elevation gain from my pickup. The difference is I worked by butt off for a buck that nobody else knew about and was happy with that. I didn’t lie about it and actually shoot it in my neighborhood where it was eating under my apple tree the day before. Casey’s son Beau is acting like it was a grueling hunt for months and this bull “reappeared” in December and they finally got it done on the last day. I don’t know the details of the hunt, nor does it really matter as long as it was legal. But it is not even close to the same, mine was an otc tag that anyone in the world with a hunters license can buy. His bull was on a raffle tag in which you can hunt for 5 months straight and he didn’t get it done until it came down by people’s yards. Am I saying I wouldn’t have shot the bull? Absolutely not, I would’ve shot that bull in a heartbeat. However, if I had shot it, I would’ve came clean and told everyone the truth of the story, which they still haven’t done. Everything about this bull is hear say so far and that is why it is so controversial. If they had came clean and said, we shot this bull the second it crossed onto public from so and so’s yard full of hay, the story would’ve lost its luster, but at least everyone would’ve known the truth.


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You nailed it!!! The hunters kid has caused a ton of people to chime in. Keep your mouth shut and move on BUT when you attempt to paint a picture as this was a DIY hunt for 4 months when it was shot just off of a apple pile in someone’s pasture is plain and simple IT IS WRONG!! He wanted attention and he got it!!! Your post is spot on!!
[/quote]

The original post by the hunters son has caused 90% of the negative comments IMO.

[LDennis24]

Yeah I'm sure I'm the one pissing everyone off with the jealousy comments but that's what it is. And a lack of self control on your emotions maybe.  I get angry sometimes and I get jealous, but I don't feel the need to critique someone's success to make it sound like less of an accomplishment. Atleast I try not to do that.

I was jealous of Karl's huge desert unit buck. Sure I could have killed a buck that big or even bigger if I had the money and time off work and could afford all the cool stuff he used to make that hunt a success. Anyone can do that! But hey don't call me jealous!

Of course I am still jealous of Karl's deer. Timbermulies, not so much. It's not that big for a nontypical. 

I think alot of people are making assumptions about where the elk was killed and don't actually know the facts. And since they don't know the facts, they just assume it's sketchy. And the responses make you sound jealous. That's my opinion and it's not a cop out for anything. I firmly believe that a major contributing factor in hunting success is how much money you have to spend, and how much time you can dedicate to the season. I always know where big animals live, I just don't have the time to dedicate to pursuing them. So when you compare hunting to sports, it's not so much athleticism like it is in basketball or football. Deer don't care if you can run a single digit 40. Classifying hunting as a sport is kind of ridiculous. It's now a money game. It didn't used to be, but it is now.

[trophyhunt]

One thing I see posted a lot about these raffle tags and auction tags is how these big spenders are helping so much with the conservation of whichever species they are buying tags for. I know the money must be going somewhere, but I can’t remember any tag numbers for us normal hunters increasing even one time since these special tags were implemented. The opposite seems to be true where seasons keep getting shorter and “ quality “ permit numbers continue to decline. I think that’s where some of this so called jealousy arises from. 1 guy has numerous big horn sheep and monster bulls while the rest of us are limited to one tag in your life, all because of money? Maybe the OIL rules should apply to these raffle and auction tags also for the true OIL species?

great point!  All that money made on the raffles/auctions and our number of tags are dropping!!

[LDennis24]

You nailed it!!!!  Maybe you guys should start a thread about why Beau Brooks is misleading everyone then. Not bash his dad who hasn't made any claims what so ever about the elk. 

[full choke]

I am a bit surprised no one has brought up the possibility of corner crossing? 

[trophyhunt]

Didn't you pack salt in to a location to attract your deer and have it become habituated to a certain location and the scent of you being there? What's the difference? You probably have more photos of your deer than this guy does of his elk alive.

That’s not even close to the same thing. And if you can’t see the difference then you’re the problem with hunting today. I packed in salt 5 months and 4 days before I shot my buck. And it only came to the salt lick 3 times before the season began and hadn’t been to the salt in 5 weeks before I shot it. I wasn’t trying to get it “habituated” to anything, I was trying to see what was living in an area and be able to target the most mature buck. I shot my buck almost 4 miles from any roads and over 2000 feet of elevation gain from my pickup. The difference is I worked by butt off for a buck that nobody else knew about and was happy with that. I didn’t lie about it and actually shoot it in my neighborhood where it was eating under my apple tree the day before. Casey’s son Beau is acting like it was a grueling hunt for months and this bull “reappeared” in December and they finally got it done on the last day. I don’t know the details of the hunt, nor does it really matter as long as it was legal. But it is not even close to the same, mine was an otc tag that anyone in the world with a hunters license can buy. His bull was on a raffle tag in which you can hunt for 5 months straight and he didn’t get it done until it came down by people’s yards. Am I saying I wouldn’t have shot the bull? Absolutely not, I would’ve shot that bull in a heartbeat. However, if I had shot it, I would’ve came clean and told everyone the truth of the story, which they still haven’t done. Everything about this bull is hear say so far and that is why it is so controversial. If they had came clean and said, we shot this bull the second it crossed onto public from so and so’s yard full of hay, the story would’ve lost its luster, but at least everyone would’ve known the truth.


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You nailed it!!! The hunters kid has caused a ton of people to chime in. Keep your mouth shut and move on BUT when you attempt to paint a picture as this was a DIY hunt for 4 months when it was shot just off of a apple pile in someone’s pasture is plain and simple IT IS WRONG!! He wanted attention and he got it!!! Your post is spot on!!

The original post by the hunters son has caused 90% of the negative comments IMO.


[/quote]exactly!!! Most don’t give two rips about killing that beast under an apple tree on a private farm! It’s not jealously, it’s exactly about the kids original post. 

[TimberMuleys]

You nailed it!!!!  Maybe you guys should start a thread about why Beau Brooks is misleading everyone then. Not bash his dad who hasn't made any claims what so ever about the elk. 

Who is bashing his dad? I see most people questioning the hunt ethics. Not Casey himself.


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[Dan-o]

Please, if you feel a need to discuss this topic further, do so without taking any more personal shots at each other.

[jackelope]

I’ve unlocked this thread and cleaned it up. If it goes personal again, bans will be handed out. Keep the thread on topic.

[2MANY]

Crickets.
Lol

[blackveltbowhunter]

   I don't want to derail record bull thread anymore than it is, so I thought I would pose the question here.
 
  I think its readily apparent anytime a big bull is posted the "jealousy" label gets slapped up more times than Fauci saying "stop the spread" during a covid press conference.

   My question is, is it it really that simple? Is any comment that questions the validity, or is not a glowing affirmation of the hunters prowess and skill driven solely by this single emotion.

   Personally, I think jealousy by and large has very little to do with it. Obviously jealousy exists I am not denying that. However, hunting when viewed as a "sport" by a group is unique and may be the only sport that has no scale upon which to measure the individuals accomplishments. The individual by the nature of taking a life, should be satisfied with their results. But once shared they open themselves up to criticism upon which there are no written rules ( after the legal ones ) to compare the level of "good".
   In sports like basketball, football, golf etc..., there are rigidly defined parameters that govern all players in a specific era and level. Determining the level of skill needed to achieve or excel is easy. In other words, you cannot pay enough to get someone to lower the basket so you can win a dunking contest against Jordan. Contest sports ( which i categorize hunting in ) like boxing or UFC get a little more sideways because competition can to some extent be chosen. Still, its pretty transparent and relatively easy to spot when a contender is ducking another or weighing the odds in their favor.

   By and large I think most hunters that raise questions are not doing so because they are jealous, but because they want a reference for comparisons. Specifically comparisons to their own styles or self imposed rules. 

   Big bulls and bucks area always cool. But being the highest score TO ME has little to do with that animals ability to survive, to grow, or most pertinent to this topic escape and evade hunters.

   The truth cold and hard as it is, is this. No free range animal living on hay bales in back yards, with limited to no hunting pressure, in the proximity of humans, possibly driven off home field advantage due to snow, is comparable when being hunted to an animal who is not blessed with those gifts. I think some folks believe that because they utilize their money or other resources to get them access to those types of animals who are not as equipped to deal with hunter pressure, they will be categorized differently than others. And they will. That doesn't make those who are judging jealous, it just makes a more equitable comparison. It reminds me of the scene in rocky 3 when Mick tell Rocky that he would get killed in a fight against Clubber, and his title defenses were against handpicked fighters.

   I don't get why it bothers anyone at all on either side. If it does, do something about it instead of throwing labels.

 

This is a strange question especially coming from you.  I remember a comment to the effect of "it was just a 5 point, nothing special". To me there was a large spectrum of emotions coming from a highly skilled hunter(you). I believe emotions including jealousy are not all bad,  at times you can be jealous and appreciate things at the same time and both are okay.  Hunting is just so much more and does so much more than just classifying it as a competitive sport as stated yet actions represent other emotions invoked including jealousy in other settings.

 I 100 percent agree. Hence the reason for the question. I personally don't think that jealousy is the only reason. My opinion is there are many emotions, opinions, motivations and different takes, from those questioning these kills as well as those defending them. If hunters are going to unite silencing, or labeling differing views because it doesn't align with yours is not the way to do it IMO.

Hence, why I started this thread, the record bull thread is a success thread. It seems to have gone away from simple congrats to the hunter ( I get the hunter didn't initiate it ).

To the comment specifically. That comment I made to you was wrong. It was never meant to be directed at or toward you or any other hunters if it came across that way I apologize. If was also disparaging to the bull, and for that I do apologize. Hunting experiences should allow for growth and change, and that was one of my biggest.  I will never, ever, ever again disparage a life I or anyone  takes as not worthy of respect. That hunt knocked me down hard. It brought a ton of  "negative" emotions initially, but now I wouldnt trade them for a 360 bull ..... ok thats a lie  but you get the gist.  It forced growth and allowed me live the words " if you kill it, you honor it". In a way I may never have known otherwise.

Im curious, What makes me a highly skilled hunter in your opinion?  I do not consider myself a highly skilled hunter. I have no body of work  with giant critters gracing my walls. Have never killed an animal large enough to enter into the B and C record book, and am handicapped with a debilitating archery preference.  In addition I have a history of relatively low trigger control, (improving) and while I am dedicated, diligent and disciplined. The animals especially the big ones make me look a fool more often than I care to admit.
   My comment about competitive sports was meant to highlight this very issue. It's not that I actually look at hunting as a competitive sport. But in a world of social media where comparisons WILL be drawn amongst large numbers of folks, what are the rules for those comparisons?  If being legal is the standard, then we need look no further than the big money tags or the tribal hunt regulations to see where that leads us.





   

[howlow]

curious how much does one put in for the raffle tags?    What are the odds of drawing one of the raffle tags.    If people are paying more than 10k+ why not give these guys tags,  More u spend maybe your season longer?    Just seems like the people putting 20 bucks in would never draw a raffle tag.  I could be wrong but Im curious what people think on this topic?

[jackelope]

curious how much does one put in for the raffle tags?    What are the odds of drawing one of the raffle tags.    If people are paying more than 10k+ why not give these guys tags,  More u spend maybe your season longer?    Just seems like the people putting 20 bucks in would never draw a raffle tag.  I could be wrong but Im curious what people think on this topic?

10's of thousands of dollars.

[blackveltbowhunter]

There is always a chance for a single entry to win, but the pots can get pretty loaded. X2 when there is a target bull such as this on the menu. The raffle totals are public record, but whether they break down individual  contributions I have no idea.

[Tbar]

   I don't want to derail record bull thread anymore than it is, so I thought I would pose the question here.
 
  I think its readily apparent anytime a big bull is posted the "jealousy" label gets slapped up more times than Fauci saying "stop the spread" during a covid press conference.

   My question is, is it it really that simple? Is any comment that questions the validity, or is not a glowing affirmation of the hunters prowess and skill driven solely by this single emotion.

   Personally, I think jealousy by and large has very little to do with it. Obviously jealousy exists I am not denying that. However, hunting when viewed as a "sport" by a group is unique and may be the only sport that has no scale upon which to measure the individuals accomplishments. The individual by the nature of taking a life, should be satisfied with their results. But once shared they open themselves up to criticism upon which there are no written rules ( after the legal ones ) to compare the level of "good".
   In sports like basketball, football, golf etc..., there are rigidly defined parameters that govern all players in a specific era and level. Determining the level of skill needed to achieve or excel is easy. In other words, you cannot pay enough to get someone to lower the basket so you can win a dunking contest against Jordan. Contest sports ( which i categorize hunting in ) like boxing or UFC get a little more sideways because competition can to some extent be chosen. Still, its pretty transparent and relatively easy to spot when a contender is ducking another or weighing the odds in their favor.

   By and large I think most hunters that raise questions are not doing so because they are jealous, but because they want a reference for comparisons. Specifically comparisons to their own styles or self imposed rules. 

   Big bulls and bucks area always cool. But being the highest score TO ME has little to do with that animals ability to survive, to grow, or most pertinent to this topic escape and evade hunters.

   The truth cold and hard as it is, is this. No free range animal living on hay bales in back yards, with limited to no hunting pressure, in the proximity of humans, possibly driven off home field advantage due to snow, is comparable when being hunted to an animal who is not blessed with those gifts. I think some folks believe that because they utilize their money or other resources to get them access to those types of animals who are not as equipped to deal with hunter pressure, they will be categorized differently than others. And they will. That doesn't make those who are judging jealous, it just makes a more equitable comparison. It reminds me of the scene in rocky 3 when Mick tell Rocky that he would get killed in a fight against Clubber, and his title defenses were against handpicked fighters.

   I don't get why it bothers anyone at all on either side. If it does, do something about it instead of throwing labels.

 

This is a strange question especially coming from you.  I remember a comment to the effect of "it was just a 5 point, nothing special". To me there was a large spectrum of emotions coming from a highly skilled hunter(you). I believe emotions including jealousy are not all bad,  at times you can be jealous and appreciate things at the same time and both are okay.  Hunting is just so much more and does so much more than just classifying it as a competitive sport as stated yet actions represent other emotions invoked including jealousy in other settings.

 I 100 percent agree. Hence the reason for the question. I personally don't think that jealousy is the only reason. My opinion is there are many emotions, opinions, motivations and different takes, from those questioning these kills as well as those defending them. If hunters are going to unite silencing, or labeling differing views because it doesn't align with yours is not the way to do it IMO.

Hence, why I started this thread, the record bull thread is a success thread. It seems to have gone away from simple congrats to the hunter ( I get the hunter didn't initiate it ).

To the comment specifically. That comment I made to you was wrong. It was never meant to be directed at or toward you or any other hunters if it came across that way I apologize. If was also disparaging to the bull, and for that I do apologize. Hunting experiences should allow for growth and change, and that was one of my biggest.  I will never, ever, ever again disparage a life I or anyone  takes as not worthy of respect. That hunt knocked me down hard. It brought a ton of  "negative" emotions initially, but now I wouldnt trade them for a 360 bull ..... ok thats a lie  but you get the gist.  It forced growth and allowed me live the words " if you kill it, you honor it". In a way I may never have known otherwise.

Im curious, What makes me a highly skilled hunter in your opinion?  I do not consider myself a highly skilled hunter. I have no body of work  with giant critters gracing my walls. Have never killed an animal large enough to enter into the B and C record book, and am handicapped with a debilitating archery preference.  In addition I have a history of relatively low trigger control, (improving) and while I am dedicated, diligent and disciplined. The animals especially the big ones make me look a fool more often than I care to admit.
   My comment about competitive sports was meant to highlight this very issue. It's not that I actually look at hunting as a competitive sport. But in a world of social media where comparisons WILL be drawn amongst large numbers of folks, what are the rules for those comparisons?  If being legal is the standard, then we need look no further than the big money tags or the tribal hunt regulations to see where that leads us.





 

I don't want to go too far off topic but I like the discussion.  First I seldom associate skill with antler size and this is for a variety of life instilled and personal values.  So a wall of legal brush racks from southwest along with mature blacktail bucks mixed in and you have my respect and admiration. Add to that what I know of you and the company you keep and there is separation in preparation. Preparation is more than being a sitka model with a lifted truck(imo). Hunting big bulls is so subjective and for the most part you have to hunt them where they are and that just doesn't coincide with not just Washington but most western states management scheme where opportunity is the goal. So especially with elk there is not an easy correlation between skill and antlers.  Social media adds a weird dynamic of seeing everything in real time and by the masses.  I remember when we had to go to the local hardware store or gas station with a tack board to admire locally taken animals, now we see the entire west and beyond within seconds of harvests. Thats one of the reasons I said being jealous of a harvest is seldom a net negative unless we personally make it that.  Instead seeing potential often drives me (I should say used to) even in places I don't or cannot hunt.  I don't like the big money big bull game but I also hold no ill will towards the players,  if I had the means I would play and maintain opposition.
Sorry for the ramble, maybe a conversation better suited over a drink.

[Feathernfurr]

Funny thing is the results from these auction/governor/raffle tags don’t really impress me much, and I don’t think they impress true hardcore hunters much either. Don’t get me wrong, the animals themselves are pretty amazing. People know that these are pay to play tags, hunting animals with next to zero pressure or often times being babysat by guide services. I’d bet if you asked 10 dedicated elk hunters, the guys that are successful every year, they probably couldn’t tell you the name of a single one of these guys that hold the record books with these tags. They just don’t really care, I imagine the only people sweating these things are the guys battling it out to get a tag. Personally, I think the guys that pay for this tags are absolute morons. If I won the mega millions tomorrow you wouldn’t catch me spending it on this. You might find me paying my best buddies bills and mortgages for a month, buying everyone new gear, and going on an epic diy float hunt into a wilderness area with otc tags though.

[Roslyn Rambler]

curious how much does one put in for the raffle tags?    What are the odds of drawing one of the raffle tags.    If people are paying more than 10k+ why not give these guys tags,  More u spend maybe your season longer?    Just seems like the people putting 20 bucks in would never draw a raffle tag.  I could be wrong but Im curious what people think on this topic?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I think it's $6 per entry and I did the simple math for the pending WR bull. If Brooks bought every single ticket this year it was like 35k

[2MANY]

That's all?
Honestly that's a deal.

[teanawayslayer]

curious how much does one put in for the raffle tags?    What are the odds of drawing one of the raffle tags.    If people are paying more than 10k+ why not give these guys tags,  More u spend maybe your season longer?    Just seems like the people putting 20 bucks in would never draw a raffle tag.  I could be wrong but Im curious what people think on this topic?

Which he didn’t. All it takes is one!
Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I think it's $6 per entry and I did the simple math for the pending WR bull. If Brooks bought every single ticket this year it was like 35k

[bigdub257]

Funny thing is the results from these auction/governor/raffle tags don’t really impress me much, and I don’t think they impress true hardcore hunters much either. Don’t get me wrong, the animals themselves are pretty amazing. People know that these are pay to play tags, hunting animals with next to zero pressure or often times being babysat by guide services. I’d bet if you asked 10 dedicated elk hunters, the guys that are successful every year, they probably couldn’t tell you the name of a single one of these guys that hold the record books with these tags. They just don’t really care, I imagine the only people sweating these things are the guys battling it out to get a tag. Personally, I think the guys that pay for this tags are absolute morons. If I won the mega millions tomorrow you wouldn’t catch me spending it on this. You might find me paying my best buddies bills and mortgages for a month, buying everyone new gear, and going on an epic diy float hunt into a wilderness area with otc tags though.

My sentiment exactly.  This is all about competition between a bunch of rich guys trying to outdo each other.   As many on here have stated, the anti hunting community is licking their chops with all of these posts.  I don't post on social media.  My satisfaction from a hunt comes from within and enjoying it with close friends whether we're successful or not.  My most memorable big game hunt was shooting a spike elk in the backcountry in Montana solo.  I've been fortunate enough to harvest a few branched bulls since then but not near as memorable.  To each his own I guess, but I don't understand the obsession and amount of money these guys spend to outdo each other or the lengths they'll go to.  This guy is certainly famous now the world over but possibly for the wrong reason.

[bearpaw]

Here's the deal, giving out a handful of auction and raffle tags has less impact on the overall animal population for the greatest amount of revenue received. It gives whomever has that special tag a special opportunity at animals. The raffle tags give anyone a chance at the tag, to put a limit on number of tags purchased would defeat the purpose of the tag.

I am disgusted by the emotion displayed by some people for all sorts of reasons, no matter what they try to say, I think its mostly because the other guy got the tag and the animal and they didn't. No matter what they say is the reason, that's the way it appears.

Why can't people simply appreciate the animal!

[Wanttohuntmore]

I look at it like this.   Wow,  incredible animal.   You don't see that every day.   As far as judging the difficulty of the hunt or preparation to get it?  Only the hunter knows.    I've shot a doe with my bow years ago 12 miles in while sick with the flu on the last day of the season.   It was a trophy to me due to the grind I managed that day.   I've had opportunities to shoot pasture bulls and it doesn't get me excited,  but I won't rule it out nor bad mouth those that do it.   We all hunt for different reasons.

[ldjbuff]

I have a friend who shot a bull that was #2 archery in the state at that time.  He posted on this forum (this was a few years ago). Half the comments were saying he poached it and they knew he had to have. It was a 100% legal kill, on public land.

No special tag but tons of hate and jealousy for no reason.