Non-Toxic Shot Sucks

[Shoffy]

I'm just heart broken that fish and game has regulated non-toxic shot for all wildlife areas in WA. Fish and game dept is absolutely out of there minds. Let's keep the steel shot for ducks and geese, but upland game?? come on. You watch, the next thing you'll know they will require non-toxic centerfire ammo for big game. Then what?? Non-Toxic .22 only for ground squirrels and varmints???  What a joke....

[Wenatcheejay]

I'm just heart broken that fish and game has regulated non-toxic shot for all wildlife areas in WA. Fish and game dept is absolutely out of there minds. Let's keep the steel shot for ducks and geese, but upland game?? come on. You watch, the next thing you'll know they will require non-toxic centerfire ammo for big game. Then what?? Non-Toxic .22 only for ground squirrels and varmints???  What a joke....

Yes, it does. This was decided off of debunked studies from the Center For Biological Diversity. They petitioned the EPA to regulate lead bullets Nationwide and failed. So, this State is taking it upon itself. Hunters as usual will do nothing and in short order Lead bullets will be outlawed. People will cheer that the environment is safer and while yes it costs $2 a shot instead of $5 for a box of shells, "YOU CAN STILL SHOOT!", I have heard people say "We should be thankful they allow that". That is what worries me the most. Washington Sheep are so in love with our Government, (or subordinate) that there will be little opposition. I am a little frustrated that Gun Store owners & Sportsman Groups are not a little more vocal but even they are pretty silent.

For what it is worth the NRA fought very hard at the National level for our rights and won. This State however is lost.

[SpringerFan]

I agree. Our club held a field trial last Feb. on Fort Lewis. Never saw so many pheasants get hit and keep flying.

During our training sessions some of us have been trying different brands / shot size. We train with Pigeons. I have seen many a Pigeon get hit twice with steel shot and it just makes them fly faster.

I have some Remington HD in 2 3/4 that I will be using for hunting. But for training, most of us have switched to a shot size of 3 or 4. I use 2 3/4" #3 for the first shot....if I miss it is followed up with a 3" #3. Been using Blackcloud FS in the grey box.

Sad part is you need to knock the birds down quicker so the retrieves are shorter.

There are a few new loads available that I haven't tried yet. I think higher fps helps but we need an alternative to steel. It looses so much energy compared to lead.

If a company could make an affordable tungsten load we would be good. But I am sure the manufacturers will see it as a way to make more revenue.

Keep trying different loads and shot size....you will find something that works.

[lokidog]

Practice, practice, practice with the non-toxic (steel)  you will knock them down just fine once you are used to shooting it. 

Anecdote:  Many years ago (1986) I moved to OR from WI.  I had to use steel shot for ducks pretty much from when I started hunting in 1976.  OR did not require steel for ducks so I bought the cheaper lead.  I crippled duck after duck taking shots that I would have taken in WI.  Maybe some a little longer as I was out in the mudflats instead of a cattail marsh.  I got fed up and switched back to steel even though it cost more and was not required.  My memory tells me that I crippled no, or very few, ducks the rest of the season.  Not because steel shot was better than lead, but because that is what I was used to using.  Less lead up close, more lead farther out than steel.  I used #4 steel for birds coming into my decoys.  If I was to hunt a pheasant release site that required steel, I would use #4 as well if I had a dog that worked close.  A farther ranging dog or birds that tended to jump long, I would probably use #3 which is what I use when jump shooting ducks.

Comparing this to banning all lead bullets is not quite accurate, thoug I would not be surprised if this state eventually tried to do so since our government is filled with a bunch of California wannabees.   

[Andrew]

If they want us to shoot clean than so be it, however, they need to crack down on these shot companies that are charging WAY to much in order to do so.  I ordered non toxic shot from BP to reload...*censored* came from China!  Besides being annoyed at the cost, I'm now annoyed that we can't even manufacture the stuff in the good ol USA!

The only good that might come from higher shell prices is the reluctance to sky blast!  Last year I sat next to two morons that wouldn't let ducks get within 50 yards, I just sat back and watch as one cripple after another would land and swim into my spread.  Latter at the take out they had the gull to ask if I picked up 'their ducks!'  Then they bragged how their 3.5" magnums really brought them down...A-holes.

[whitey]

I agree with lokidog
A guy needs to pattern his chokes and maybe by some new ones but I really just hammer the pheasant with still shot. Its pretty much all I shoot any more.
Carlson makes some very good choke tubs designed for tighter shot strings with steel shot.

[Wenatcheejay]

Practice, practice, practice with the non-toxic (steel)  you will knock them down just fine once you are used to shooting it. 

Anecdote:  Many years ago (1986) I moved to OR from WI.  I had to use steel shot for ducks pretty much from when I started hunting in 1976.  OR did not require steel for ducks so I bought the cheaper lead.  I crippled duck after duck taking shots that I would have taken in WI.  Maybe some a little longer as I was out in the mudflats instead of a cattail marsh.  I got fed up and switched back to steel even though it cost more and was not required.  My memory tells me that I crippled no, or very few, ducks the rest of the season.  Not because steel shot was better than lead, but because that is what I was used to using.  Less lead up close, more lead farther out than steel.  I used #4 steel for birds coming into my decoys.  If I was to hunt a pheasant release site that required steel, I would use #4 as well if I had a dog that worked close.  A farther ranging dog or birds that tended to jump long, I would probably use #3 which is what I use when jump shooting ducks.

Comparing this to banning all lead bullets is not quite accurate, thoug I would not be surprised if this state eventually tried to do so since our government is filled with a bunch of California wannabees.   

You are right the current ban is only at WDFW Pheasant Release sites. The discussion I had with USDFW was the plan to outright ban all lead shot is dead for three years. In 2015 they plan to attempt to ban all lead shot but he slipped up and said that the goal is a total ban on all lead, he said that won't please fishermen. He says the majority of Washington Hunters & Fishermen support this 53% to 47%. I asked where and when the survey was but he didn't remember. I asked about the scientific studies that support this and he said that it would protect eagles, maybe. I already know all the information comes from the Center For Biological Diversity. It is no different than Defenders of Wildlife and wolves. The information is propaganda at best. But we buy it. (Literally)

[Bean Counter]

Oh man, how I don't miss WA 

I think its time for outdoor loving, patriotic Americans to vote by leaving the state. Yes, it is that simple 

[Stilly bay]

I agree with lokidog

use 2 3/4 #2 steel shot for pheasants - it will drop a bird just as well as lead, if not better. sure the shot may be larger but it won't smash the hell of the meat like large lead shot will do.  I grew up hunting release sites where steel was mandatory, when I started hunting the real world I thought lead was a handicap with its slower speed, so anytime some one starts whining about the ineffectiveness of steel shot I just laugh and call BS.

steel is here to stay so I suggest practicing, patterning, and getting to know it. don't just grab the first cheap box of #4 or 6 steel you find, throw it in your gun and belly ache about how its not as good as lead. a fords never gonna be a chevy and steel shot is never going to behave like lead but if you do your research you will find something that does its job.


and for those who just can't get over steel shot, or better yet those that piously say " I quit hunting because of the lead ban"  WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING ABOUT IT???

[scottr]

Where are you guys seeing this? In the regs this is what I see:


It is unlawful to possess shot (either in shotshells or as loose shot for muzzleloading)
other than nontoxic shot for any purpose in the following areas:

• Wells Wildlife Area (Bridgeport Bar unit)
• Cowlitz Wildlife Area (all units)
• Olympic Wildlife Area (Chinook and Chehalis units)
• Shillapoo Wildlife Area (all units)
• Sinlahekin Wildlife Area (Driscoll Island, Hegdahl, and Kline Parcel units)
• Skagit Wildlife Area (all units)
• Snoqualmie Wildlife Area (all units)
• South Puget Sound Wildlife Area (Davis Creek Koopman unit)
• Sunnyside Wildlife Area (Headquarters, Byron, Windmill Ranch units)
• Whatcom Wildlife Area (including Lake Terrell, Tennant Lake, and other units)
It is unlawful to possess shot (either in shotshells or as loose shot for muzzleloading) other than
nontoxic shot when hunting for game birds or game animals in the following areas:
• Chehalis River pheasant release site
• Dungeness Recreation Area
• Hunter Farms pheasant release site
• Raymond Airport pheasant release site
• All Whidbey Island pheasant release sites
Many U.S. Fish and Wildlife refuges require the use of non-toxic shot (refer to specific refuge rules)

[bobcat]

Look at this:

http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/nontoxic_shot/

[scottr]

Look at this:

http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/nontoxic_shot/

Per this link:

To protect other wildlife species including waterfowl and raptors nontoxic shot is required for ALL upland bird hunting on ALL pheasant release sites STATEWIDE.

This sucks but so far it's only the Pheasant release areas. I read the original post as All WDFW Lands

[Wenatcheejay]

Look at this:

http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/nontoxic_shot/

Per this link:

To protect other wildlife species including waterfowl and raptors nontoxic shot is required for ALL upland bird hunting on ALL pheasant release sites STATEWIDE.

This sucks but so far it's only the Pheasant release areas. I read the original post as All WDFW Lands

As I said, and I did attend the WDFW meeting regarding this, (I was the only person that I know of that is on this site.) It was stated that the MAJORTIY of Washington hunters want a ban on lead shot by a USDFW Official. It seems that is the case from H-W as well. The plan is in three years to renew the plan to ban ALL lead shot in Washington as the belief is that the MAJORITY of Washington hunters want this. The plan is out there, there should be no whining about it when it happens because nobody steps up and asks about the science. I don't think personal likes/dislikes should dictate GAME management, I think science should. There is no study regarding upland bird according to the USDFW accept for a study from the 70's or 80's that found a single chuckar with some lead in his gullet. (We are not talking waterfowl or wetlands.) That is from a person representing USDFW/WDFW. "Potentially a raptor could have eaten this bird. And, we know, lead is not good for us," His words, not my opinion. I said that is poor science. He agreed, there is not much science but restated that it is what hunters want. This is as best I remember the casual conversation. He was very nice and patient with me. Honestly, when I read the opinions here it is a pretty good indicator of Wa hunters opinion. It seems most are fine with this; And so it goes. 

[scottr]

Look at this:

http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/nontoxic_shot/

Per this link:

To protect other wildlife species including waterfowl and raptors nontoxic shot is required for ALL upland bird hunting on ALL pheasant release sites STATEWIDE.

This sucks but so far it's only the Pheasant release areas. I read the original post as All WDFW Lands

As I said, and I did attend the WDFW meeting regarding this, (I was the only person that I know of that is on this site.) It was stated that the MAJORTIY of Washington hunters want a ban on lead shot by a USDFW Official. It seems that is the case from H-W as well. The plan is in three years to renew the plan to ban ALL lead shot in Washington as the belief is that the MAJORITY of Washington hunters want this. The plan is out there, there should be no whining about it when it happens because nobody steps up and asks about the science. I don't think personal likes/dislikes should dictate GAME management, I think science should. There is no study regarding upland bird according to the USDFW accept for a study from the 70's or 80's that found a single chuckar with some lead in his gullet. (We are not talking waterfowl or wetlands.) That is from a person representing USDFW/WDFW. "Potentially a raptor could have eaten this bird. And, we know, lead is not good for us," His words, not my opinion. I said that is poor science. He agreed, there is not much science but restated that it is what hunters want. This is as best I remember the casual conversation. He was very nice and patient with me. Honestly, when I read the opinions here it is a pretty good indicator of Wa hunters opinion. It seems most are fine with this; And so it goes. 

Good points. I've participated in the major rules cycles for fishing and had success getting an all year fishing season added to the Cle Elum river but I'll definitely keep my eye on this and attend the hunting meetings next time. Otherwise the one hunter who is OK with a lead ban (although I've yet to meet this "guy") will be representing all of us.



 

[Wenatcheejay]

Look at this:

http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/nontoxic_shot/

Per this link:

To protect other wildlife species including waterfowl and raptors nontoxic shot is required for ALL upland bird hunting on ALL pheasant release sites STATEWIDE.

This sucks but so far it's only the Pheasant release areas. I read the original post as All WDFW Lands

As I said, and I did attend the WDFW meeting regarding this, (I was the only person that I know of that is on this site.) It was stated that the MAJORTIY of Washington hunters want a ban on lead shot by a USDFW Official. It seems that is the case from H-W as well. The plan is in three years to renew the plan to ban ALL lead shot in Washington as the belief is that the MAJORITY of Washington hunters want this. The plan is out there, there should be no whining about it when it happens because nobody steps up and asks about the science. I don't think personal likes/dislikes should dictate GAME management, I think science should. There is no study regarding upland bird according to the USDFW accept for a study from the 70's or 80's that found a single chuckar with some lead in his gullet. (We are not talking waterfowl or wetlands.) That is from a person representing USDFW/WDFW. "Potentially a raptor could have eaten this bird. And, we know, lead is not good for us," His words, not my opinion. I said that is poor science. He agreed, there is not much science but restated that it is what hunters want. This is as best I remember the casual conversation. He was very nice and patient with me. Honestly, when I read the opinions here it is a pretty good indicator of Wa hunters opinion. It seems most are fine with this; And so it goes. 

Good points. I've participated in the major rules cycles for fishing and had success getting an all year fishing season added to the Cle Elum river but I'll definitely keep my eye on this and attend the hunting meetings next time. Otherwise the one hunter who is OK with a lead ban (although I've yet to meet this "guy") will be representing all of us.

 

[mossy8352]

Has anyone tried the loads below? I would try them if I could find them here where I live. Seems like a less expensive alternative to hot steel loads (sort pf like HS 13 turkey loads and their geese/duck loads). Not taking sides just curious .

http://www.hevishot.com/images/stories/_Pheasant/HEVI-MetalPheasant.pdf

[AWS]

Another old MN/WI duck hunter here, been shooting steel for a long time  I have no problems with it.  Just started loading ITX and Nice Shot for my vintage smoothbores and high end Muzzle Loader.  I am slowly getting the lead out of my rifles also.  Last season I hunted with 55gr Nosler Lead Free Ballistic Tips in my coyote gun, worked just fine.  Am loading 75gr X bullets in my 250 Sav. and will be working with the 40gr NBT Lead Free in my 22-250 and a couple other 22 cal. this season.

I retired from the abatement industry and I look at it this way.  They told us Cigarettes won't hurt you, asbestos is a miracle material and your telling me there is nothing wrong with lead.   I need to carry an inhaler, damaged lungs from smoking, people I know are dying from asbestosis and everytime I get a chest cold I worry about it, maybe not using lead now will make life a little better for someone in the future.

I'm not going to go out and campain for a lead ban but I'm not going to fight it or stop hunting because of it.
AWS

[Heredoggydoggy]

Get used to it.  We are a nation of extremes in all we do.  Lead will not jump up and grab you by the throat.  It works slower than that.  In my day, we washed our car parts in leaded gasoline, with no gloves.  in 36 years of construction work I washed down lots of things with Lacquer Thinner, MEK, Acetone, Tolulene, and other assorted solvents.  No gloves.  Inhaled the fumes from Contact Cement and other adhesives, and the above.  No masks.  Now people can't understand why I shake so badly I can't shoot a pistol with any accuracy, and offhand rifle shooting is a lost cause.  I don't blame anybody.  We didn't know.  Now we do, and people are afraid of anything that has to do with toxic substances.

[Bob33]

I can almost guarantee you that Hevy-Metal shot will not be cheaper than any steel loads.  It is good but expensive: probably around $4/shell.

[dscubame]

4 bucks a shell!!!!!!!!

[johnnyaustin44]

It defiantly would be nice to be able to reasonably buy something other than steel but even paying 30 a box for shells isn't gonna make you HIT more ducks just kill more efficiently on birds that may not be hit as well.  but hopefully there will be a cheap and better alternative for steel soon

[AWS]

It costs me about $1.60/shell to load nice shot, 1oz #5 in my 12ga and about $1.20 to load ITX 1oz 4.5 or 6 shot or about $35-$40 a box of 25, not that far off of the price of premium steel and I get to use some of the nicest handling guns ever made.

AWS

[Bob33]

Looks to be about $25 for 10 shells.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=877690

[mossy8352]

The blend I wrote about in the above post is $24.99 for 25 shells as it is a blend of steel and heavy metal.

While this is still higher than lead it is close to Black Cloud and others and I think it will out perform the others like the Turkey loads do?

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?pageNum=1&tabId=3&categoryId=17567&categoryString=653***9217***9486***&brandId=1837