Post by: JPhelps on June 26, 2012, 06:58:01 PM
With elk season approaching I thought it would be cool to pick a topic a week and discuss it and see what questions people have, strategies they use, etc... I will try and post up a new topic every week until September. For next weeks discussion what direction should we go; imitation, getting setup before calling, effective cow calls, challenge bugle or anything else you have questions about.
Locator Bugle
What it is used for/What it means: Non-Confrontational communication between bulls looking or checking for other elk. Used by a bull announcing his location and looking for response from other bulls to see where they are at.
What it Sounds Like: Usually a two or three note bugle where extra emphasis is put on the high note. I usually run this call for about 3 seconds holding the high note. Very little growl or grunt is used at the beginning and end of the bugle. There is a tone that just “makes your ears ring” and that is the high note that produces the best results (if you have to ask if it’s the right tone then you’re not hitting the right note).
How/When to use it: I have found that this call is most effective if used in the morning (30 minutes before light to about 2 hours after sunrise) and the evening ( 2 hours before dark). These times correlate with herds moving between feeding and bedding and vice versa. It can also work mid-day, but it usually isn’t as effective. The best use of the locator bugle may be between 10 and 12 at night for locating bulls when they are very vocal. When calling at night only call once and DO NOT add in any other calls. You will be amazed at how many times an area you hunted all day and was complete silence will have a bull fire off when night locating.
I like to use this call when blind locating by calling off of ridge tops or finger ridges every 150 to 250 yards. I will wait 20-30 seconds before moving on. A lot of times you will get a bull to respond right next to where you just used a location bugle (to the best of my knowledge I believe bulls do not answer in an effort to avoid a confrontation with the new bull being so close to his new area, but once you move away and call again he is comfortable enough to respond).
Responses to It: The majority of the time you will get a location bugle in response to your location bugle. If hunting with a partner you can use one guy to continue to locate why the other guy slips in. If hunting solo get a good read on the elk (time of day, wind direction, natural path, etc…) and try to get in tight on the bull.
Some bulls will respond with a threating bugle (challenge bugle, grunting, screaming). This is letting you know that you are too close to the area he is calling his and he would like you to leave. When faced with this situation get in tight and create a threat to the bull. You already know he is defensive of his area and will most likely not want to leave.
Examples of me using a locator bugle in the field @ 5:52 and 6:15
Primetime Outdoors - Gettin After It: Season 2 - Archery Elk Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB2ZtU2GYE4#ws)
Post by: stealth on June 26, 2012, 09:42:28 PM
Post by: washelkhunter on June 26, 2012, 10:10:37 PM
Seems like we are reading off the same page as the location bugle goes. We have the same experiences as well. Once we get a response we move in quick and quiet and try to get a visual on an animal before trying a call again. when we think weve closed a good distance we'll call as nonthreatening as possible to pinpoint his location. If we get a return bugle we make our move and try to work the setup plan.
Post by: Dan-o on June 26, 2012, 10:15:57 PM
I use a locator bugle when I can. Timing is everything, of ocurse. It sure is easier to find a bull when he'll yell back..... :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: coachcw on June 27, 2012, 06:38:28 AM
Post by: jackmaster on June 27, 2012, 06:46:18 AM
Post by: Woodchuck on June 27, 2012, 07:00:09 AM
Post by: Woodchuck on June 27, 2012, 07:01:37 AM
just out of curiosity, how can you tell between an elk and a hunter, i dont really elk hunt except in my backyard, i know not much sport....... but anyways i have heard elk bugle that i would swear that they were hunters but it turned out to be a bull, one was one of the biggest bulls i have evr seen in my life, it was down right funny listening to that bull with his broke up whimpy bugle.? :chuckle:FWIW in my opinion humans call too much, too often and don't move. :twocents:
Post by: D-Rock425 on June 27, 2012, 07:14:52 AM
Post by: TommyH on June 27, 2012, 07:57:04 AM
I am under the impression that you hunt the wet side primarily but thought I would ask anyway. It seems to me that the elk over here have bugled less and less over the years. It has been stated by some that this is a defense against calling wolves to the herd. Do you think this may be true or do you have some other theory? If this is the case, do you have any thoughts or another idea on a reliable form of location?
Not sure that elk on the wet side have been calling less because of drawing wolves in...........its not something they have had to deal with! More and more people walking around bugling would be my guess. :twocents:
Post by: Woodchuck on June 27, 2012, 08:04:42 AM
Post by: PlateauNDN on June 27, 2012, 08:27:11 AM
good info thanks for the tip :tup:
:yeah: X's 2
This is a great idea for a weekly post. :tup:
Seems like we are reading off the same page as the location bugle goes. We have the same experiences as well. Once we get a response we move in quick and quiet and try to get a visual on an animal before trying a call again. when we think weve closed a good distance we'll call as nonthreatening as possible to pinpoint his location. If we get a return bugle we make our move and try to work the setup plan.
:yeah:
Post by: BowBender87 on June 27, 2012, 11:38:32 AM
just out of curiosity, how can you tell between an elk and a hunter, i dont really elk hunt except in my backyard, i know not much sport....... but anyways i have heard elk bugle that i would swear that they were hunters but it turned out to be a bull, one was one of the biggest bulls i have evr seen in my life, it was down right funny listening to that bull with his broke up whimpy bugle.? :chuckle:
Sometimes it is pretty tough to tell. Not very often but sometimes. When I'm not sure i go investigate. I dont want to be back at camp arguing with myself.."Im sure that was a hunter...but wait i dont know, those chuckles sounded really deep." In my opinion, I havent heard many callers that could truly imitate a bulls chuckle..nothing quite as deep and guttural as the actual thing. So that is usually what i go off of. Other times you can tell that its a hunter and he is using a hoochie mama with a primos terminator bugle :chuckle: and it sounds like a flute. It also kinda depends on where the bugle is coming from. You just kinda have to judge it like...I know there is a road over there..or theres a landing up there where that fluty bugle is coming from. I think that just being out there that time a year gaining experience is the only way to be able to determine hunter or bull.
Post by: JPhelps on June 27, 2012, 12:31:27 PM
Woodchuck, I have some friends in Wyoming that have noticed in the last 10 to 15 years the bugling has decreased. This correlates with population boom of grizzly bear and of course wolves. It could be they don't want to give away their location or it could be the fact that the elk population has decreased in these areas.
I agree with D-Rock in that don't over use this call. I will play it slightly differentl if I KNOW there are elk there, by using a couple locators (left them there the night before or spotted them from a ways away and it took a while to get there). Although last year I called multiple times from one area and didn't get a response then I switched to a Challenge Bugle and got a response right below me, so you never know. I would error on the side of not continuously calling from one spot.
Post by: Woodchuck on June 27, 2012, 12:39:25 PM
Post by: TheHunt on June 27, 2012, 01:06:31 PM
Heck I have even been on the elk and heard a hunter drive up on his ATV. Wait 5 min then bugle. THe bull did not even lift his head. Then the hunter fired up his ATV and drove off. Seen the same thing with a truck stops, door opens and closes bugles nothing, gets into the truck slams the door and fires it up and off they go.
Educating bulls is the theme here... Be careful how much and how long you wait until you move on.
Post by: washelkhunter on June 27, 2012, 01:09:47 PM
It can be very hard to tell between a human (good or bad caller) and the real thing. The external reed style bugles are much easier to detect as they all have same pitch. Like others have said grunts and chuckles the hardest.Quote
Elk make the darndest noises and do often not sound like the "perfect" bull bugle. If there are some hunters camped nearby and i make a call and get a beautiful response from that qtr i ignore it and move away. If i get a response that ends upsounding like a cross between an out of tune violin and a civil war bugle just dug out of the ground, then i get excited and move up fast.
Post by: huntnnw on June 27, 2012, 03:41:56 PM
Post by: D-Rock425 on June 27, 2012, 06:44:49 PM
It can be very hard to tell between a human (good or bad caller) and the real thing. The external reed style bugles are much easier to detect as they all have the same pitch. Like others have said grunts and chuckles seem to be the hardest for most to reproduce accurately.
Woodchuck, I have some friends in Wyoming that have noticed in the last 10 to 15 years the bugling has decreased. This correlates with population boom of grizzly bear and of course wolves. It could be they don't want to give away their location or it could be the fact that the elk population has decreased in these areas.
I agree with D-Rock in that don't over use this call. I will play it slightly differentl if I KNOW there are elk there, by using a couple locators (left them there the night before or spotted them from a ways away and it took a while to get there). Although last year I called multiple times from one area and didn't get a response then I switched to a Challenge Bugle and got a response right below me, so you never know. I would error on the side of not continuously calling from one spot.
How about that i do know something the professional call manufacturing agrees with me. :IBCOOL:
Post by: JPhelps on June 27, 2012, 07:22:10 PM
Post by: D-Rock425 on June 27, 2012, 07:44:20 PM
Post by: JPhelps on June 28, 2012, 12:23:18 PM
A lot of times the bull will respond to you wanting you to come join the herd. Many times if this is a bull with cows he may be reluctant to budge in fear of losing cows to other bulls in the area.
Post by: zackmioli on June 28, 2012, 01:33:00 PM
Post by: buglebuster on June 28, 2012, 08:57:57 PM
Post by: smartazz171 on June 29, 2012, 04:11:14 AM
For the record, I hate wolves. Yellowstone and the anti hunting hippy's can keep them in their backyards!
Post by: jackmaster on June 29, 2012, 06:27:16 AM
Post by: JPhelps on June 29, 2012, 07:37:43 AM
The rut is triggered by photoperiod (length of day, but there are a lot of other factors that affect bugling such as when the cows go into estrus, how many cows are in estrus, bull density in an area, cow density, etc...
Many times when scouting the weeks before the opener I will be in an area watching elk and the bull will not bugle or act rutty but rather just tend his cows. I will move to an area that is a 20 minute drive and that herd bull will be going nuts bugling, chasing satellite bulls, pushing cows and so on.
You can bet that if I cant locate a bull opening morning from glassing or him sounding off on his own I will be ripping off a locator shortly after day break. :tup:
Post by: WapitiTalk1 on June 29, 2012, 10:24:57 AM
Lastly, don't forget to wait, wait, wait when using a locater bugle in the early season in WA (or any other elk state for that matter). "TheHunt" mentioned this earlier. The bulls are moving and gathering harems and may or may not be extremely vocal (answering locater bugles) this time of the season (weather, hunting pressure, predation, etc., dependent). Lotsa different factors affect their early season vocalization. They do however, like to come in silent to see who this newcomer is, or, they're merely being cautious about answering back (again, due to various pressures, weather, etc.). Happens to me every.....single......year. I grow impatient, get ready to move, and "he" sneaks right in. :bash: Looking forward to these weekly threads JPhelps
Post by: briancorneal on June 29, 2012, 10:43:59 AM
Post by: jstone on June 29, 2012, 10:45:58 AM
Post by: kentrek on June 29, 2012, 01:41:41 PM
In my own experience early season locating is dependant on specific locations, herds, etc... Therefore I will use this call all season it just may not be as effective as it is later in the season.
The rut is triggered by photoperiod (length of day, but there are a lot of other factors that affect bugling such as when the cows go into estrus, how many cows are in estrus, bull density in an area, cow density, etc...
Many times when scouting the weeks before the opener I will be in an area watching elk and the bull will not bugle or act rutty but rather just tend his cows. I will move to an area that is a 20 minute drive and that herd bull will be going nuts bugling, chasing satellite bulls, pushing cows and so on.
x2..except i kind like to let the elk tell me what to do,if the herd isnt "hot" im def not going to be "hot" either.. :twocents:
Post by: JPhelps on June 29, 2012, 06:05:29 PM
In some situations I will create excitement through use of pleading cow sounds and estrus whines.