Post by: andersonjk4 on July 16, 2012, 11:16:01 AM
Post by: CP on July 16, 2012, 11:28:53 AM
You could try a new (longer) nipple.
Also make sure that the chemical charge isn’t falling out of the cap.
Post by: carpsniperg2 on July 16, 2012, 11:53:04 AM
Post by: LiveandLearn on July 16, 2012, 01:20:47 PM
Screw the musket cap nipple on that bad boy and that will fix it!
X2 :tup:
Post by: wadu1 on July 16, 2012, 05:00:56 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on July 16, 2012, 06:46:52 PM
In most cases but not always the problem exists because of a peened nipple. I would bet if you replaced the nipple with a new one your problem would go away.
From the description of the fit of the cap on the nipple - I would be eve n more inclined to believe you have a peened nipple...
Post by: D-Rock425 on July 16, 2012, 07:16:01 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on July 16, 2012, 07:20:56 PM
Peened NIPPLE :chuckle:
I guess I couda sayed 'Hammered' but then we might thinking 'drunk' - it is the nipple part that is hard to deal with
Post by: HntnFsh on July 16, 2012, 07:24:35 PM
andersonjk4
In most cases but not always the problem exists because of a peened nipple. I would bet if you replaced the nipple with a new one your problem would go away.
From the description of the fit of the cap on the nipple - I would be eve n more inclined to believe you have a peened nipple...
I agree. Seen it happen before. Have filed the nipple just a hair and it worked well.
Post by: LiveandLearn on July 16, 2012, 08:09:37 PM
it is the nipple part that is hard to deal with
Really, sorry to hear that. :rolleyes: try circular motions :tup:
Post by: medic6 on July 16, 2012, 08:16:39 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on July 16, 2012, 08:59:00 PM
I had the same gun and sent it in twice for the cap not firing. The customer service was great, BUT they could not fix the issue. The problem has to do with the PIN hitting inside the nipple (puncturing the cap, not slapping the cap) not on the nipple. My suggestion is get a different gun. The issue continues regardless of the musket or #11. Center punch on a cap is a bad design. I believe it is a major flaw of this particular gun :twocents:
Thank you for the explanation... I makes perfect sense to me especially if CVA is trying to use the same firing pin that they use for a 209 gun. I do not own or shoot CVA's at all anymore so I did not know about the action that the Elk Horn has in it.
To set a cap off the edges of the cap have to be driven into the rim of the breech plug and if the hammer is not large enough to cover most of the area of the cap - ignition probably will not occur.
Post by: Bigluke1981 on July 16, 2012, 11:44:21 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on July 17, 2012, 07:24:48 AM
I have been having this exact problem for a month now. I bought the cva from cabelas and took it to the range with #11's and we could not get a single one to fire. The pin is hitting the cap and making a dent but it is not firing. I left the range and went home and replaced the nipple with the musket cap nipple went and bought the musket caps and guess what??? Nothing. I have now made two trips to the range, bought several different tins of caps and have never even heard my gun go boom. I called Cabelas and they said to go ahead and bring it back and I could get my money back. This is my first Muzzleoader and i really liked the gun but do not think I will get the same one.
Again since I do not use a CVA I really should not comment but the more I think about medic6's post the more I believe he may have really tapped on the answer. Because of the the tolerance differences as they build things - if the nipple post was located slightly farther away from the face of the hammer it could have a real effect on whether that hammer could reach the cap - strike it hard enough to force the cap down on the edge of the rim to get ignition....
Somebody with one of these rifles willing to do an experiment, could install everything correctly see if it ignited caps then if it didn't back the breech plug out about an 1/8 of a turn and try again. See how far out you would have to turn the bp to get consistent ignition. Kinda wish I had one now to look at and try...
Post by: muzbuster on July 17, 2012, 08:11:48 AM
X3 :tup:Screw the musket cap nipple on that bad boy and that will fix it!
X2 :tup:
Post by: andersonjk4 on July 17, 2012, 09:58:19 AM
Post by: IMAREDNECK on July 18, 2012, 09:32:36 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on July 19, 2012, 06:39:46 AM
I'm not familiar with the CVA bighorn. If it's a sidelock like my CVA Colorado Musket Mag then the nipple allignment is critical. If my nipple isn't perfectly alligned with the hammer I get misfires also. It was the same with #11's and musket caps. Mine has to hit perfectly flush in order to fire. Now I shoot a T/C Black Diamond X/R and don't have that issue.
The Big Horn is a Knight not a CVA...
http://www.knightrifles.com/muzzleloader-bighorn/ (http://www.knightrifles.com/muzzleloader-bighorn/)
Post by: BNAElkhntr on July 19, 2012, 06:59:07 AM
The Gentleman at the Puyallup Muzzleloading supply told me CCI reduced the charge recently on the #11 s because they are also used in Civil war reinactments and the only people still using them are the Pacific NW States everyone else using 209's
Hope that Helps I learned the hard way
Post by: andersonjk4 on July 19, 2012, 08:57:05 AM
I assume your using pellets in that Elkhorn if you are then as noted before get the Musket nipple from CVA (cheap) and RWS Musket caps and you wont have a misfire again
The Gentleman at the Puyallup Muzzleloading supply told me CCI reduced the charge recently on the #11 s because they are also used in Civil war reinactments and the only people still using them are the Pacific NW States everyone else using 209's
Hope that Helps I learned the hard way
I'm using Triple 7 ffg and CCI #11 mag caps. I've had absolutley no problems with getting the powder to ignite once the cap does. My problem lies with getting the caps to pop.
I'm thinking about getting a few different nipples to try and see if maybe a little diffent nipple would help.
Post by: Sabotloader on July 19, 2012, 01:06:35 PM
I assume your using pellets in that Elkhorn if you are then as noted before get the Musket nipple from CVA (cheap) and RWS Musket caps and you wont have a misfire again
The Gentleman at the Puyallup Muzzleloading supply told me CCI reduced the charge recently on the #11 s because they are also used in Civil war reinactments and the only people still using them are the Pacific NW States everyone else using 209's
Hope that Helps I learned the hard way
I do not think think this is intirely true. There are 2 commonly used #11 caps. The regular #11 which is the reduced charge and the #11 Mag cap which produces the same temerature heat and chage as does the Musket cap. An even hotter cap is the RWS 1075+.
Post by: LiveandLearn on July 20, 2012, 07:16:18 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on July 20, 2012, 07:38:59 AM
I assume your using pellets in that Elkhorn if you are then as noted before get the Musket nipple from CVA (cheap) and RWS Musket caps and you wont have a misfire again
The Gentleman at the Puyallup Muzzleloading supply told me CCI reduced the charge recently on the #11 s because they are also used in Civil war reinactments and the only people still using them are the Pacific NW States everyone else using 209's
Hope that Helps I learned the hard way
I'm using Triple 7 ffg and CCI #11 mag caps. I've had absolutley no problems with getting the powder to ignite once the cap does. My problem lies with getting the caps to pop.
I'm thinking about getting a few different nipples to try and see if maybe a little diffent nipple would help.
This thread might hold an answer to the nipple search..
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php?topic=83394.msg1038079#msg1038079 (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php?topic=83394.msg1038079#msg1038079)
[/quote]
Post by: andersonjk4 on July 20, 2012, 04:11:39 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on July 20, 2012, 04:21:20 PM
Sabotloader - I read that thread of yours and thought that might be a solution to my problems too. But I couldn't find any AMPCO nipples with a 6mm x1 metric thread to fit my Elkhorn. I found on Midway USA a CVA nipple they call the 'Perfect' nipple I thought that might be worth a try. Hopefully I will be able to do some testing sometime this weekend and find out if it is indeed a clearance issue. Does anyone know if it is illegal to discharge caps alone in a muzzleloader in the city limits?
Shoot! you are right! - I forgot about the size thing... That is exactly what I had to do - try several different nips till I found the one that worked best for me...
Good luck
Post by: RG on July 22, 2012, 09:55:34 PM
Post by: washingtonmuley on July 22, 2012, 10:20:59 PM
Post by: andersonjk4 on July 23, 2012, 07:59:38 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on July 23, 2012, 08:47:24 PM
I agree that the caps being too tight on the nipple seems to be at least part of the problem. has anyone ever tried removing a little bit of material from a nipple to get a little looser fit? I was thinking that putting the nipple in a drill and using some 400 or 600 grit wet sand paper might work to get the caps to fit a little looser.
I go out of the way to get a tight fitting cap on the nipple, especially in the weather I hunt in... + the last thing I want to worry about is the cap working loose on the post and possibly falling off or getting lopsided on the post. But if your hammer/firing pin does not have the force to drive it forward then you really might have a problem. Again I have never looked at a CVA Elkhorn, but if there is not enough spring force to make it work, I am wondering if you can change the spring to a heavier spring?
Post by: RG on July 24, 2012, 06:27:10 AM
I agree that the caps being too tight on the nipple seems to be at least part of the problem. has anyone ever tried removing a little bit of material from a nipple to get a little looser fit? I was thinking that putting the nipple in a drill and using some 400 or 600 grit wet sand paper might work to get the caps to fit a little looser.
I go out of the way to get a tight fitting cap on the nipple, especially in the weather I hunt in... + the last thing I want to worry about is the cap working loose on the post and possibly falling off or getting lopsided on the post. But if your hammer/firing pin does not have the force to drive it forward then you really might have a problem. Again I have never looked at a CVA Elkhorn, but if there is not enough spring force to make it work, I am wondering if you can change the spring to a heavier spring?
You are right about the hammer spring being the cause of the problem and CVA has had this problem on and off for years, at least since I had my first one in the early 80's. The solution though, aside from finding a stronger spring, which I'm not sure that's possible, is to get a looser nipple.
Post by: Blacklab on August 02, 2012, 06:40:33 AM
Kind of been having the same problem. Never thought about changeing the nipple :bash: Thanks ;)
Post by: andersonjk4 on August 10, 2012, 03:31:29 PM
Now I need to find a way to extend my nipple or find a nipple that is a little longer than the one I have. Anyone have any ideas?
Post by: MountainDevil54 on August 10, 2012, 03:35:06 PM
Post by: andersonjk4 on August 27, 2012, 11:23:42 AM
Post by: jrebel on August 27, 2012, 01:15:16 PM
Screw the musket cap nipple on that bad boy and that will fix it!:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:
I just bought a musket cap nipple from midwayusa.com and it was here in 3 days. Only cost 9 dollars. It is well worth the investment.
Post by: Hunterman on September 04, 2012, 06:17:12 PM
Hunterman(Tony)
Post by: bobcat on September 04, 2012, 06:43:38 PM
Quote
,,,How do I get this elkhorn from kicking the snot out of me?? My dang shoulder is killing me..
Tony,
Try lighter bullets and less powder. You don't need a 400 grain bullet in front of 150 grains of powder to kill a deer. Drop down to 300 grain bullets and 85 - 100 grains of powder.
Post by: Sabotloader on September 04, 2012, 08:38:50 PM
Quote,,,How do I get this elkhorn from kicking the snot out of me?? My dang shoulder is killing me..
Tony,
Try lighter bullets and less powder. You don't need a 400 grain bullet in front of 150 grains of powder to kill a deer. Drop down to 300 grain bullets and 85 - 100 grains of powder.
Ya agree with this totally...
Post by: Hunterman on September 05, 2012, 08:10:18 PM
Hunterman(Tony)
Post by: bobcat on September 05, 2012, 08:47:59 PM
I was only shooting a 295gr. bullet with 100 grains of powder. I may drop down to 80 - 85 grains of powder..
Hunterman(Tony)
Yeah, that will still be plenty of powder.
Post by: piled-up on September 05, 2012, 09:22:21 PM
Post by: Hunterman on September 06, 2012, 10:34:54 AM
Hunterman(Tony)
Post by: Bluegirl92 on September 08, 2012, 08:00:21 PM
Post by: Gunfire on September 14, 2012, 08:20:14 AM
Whatever you do, DO NOT buy the tins labeled For Reenactment Use. Seems like every store has them on the shelf now and they have about as much powder as a cap gun.
Post by: andersonjk4 on September 14, 2012, 09:49:51 AM
After you figure it out, switch to musket caps. Bigger bang and easy to get off the nipple if you don't end up firing.
Whatever you do, DO NOT buy the tins labeled For Reenactment Use. Seems like every store has them on the shelf now and they have about as much powder as a cap gun.
Thats exactly the reason I chose to go with #11 caps. As Sabotloader has said many times on the forum, the #11 cap fit way tighter on the nipple. I will be hunting during the late season when rain/snow is almost a given. I want a cap that will be tight and not let water in. I also don't want to have to worry about my cap coming loose and falling off while I'm out in the field. I don't mind having to take my pocket knife out to pry a #11 cap off. The extra protection from the elements and from the cap coming loose is worth the extra few seconds it takes to get the cap off.
Post by: Sabotloader on September 14, 2012, 10:24:58 AM
After you figure it out, switch to musket caps. Bigger bang and easy to get off the nipple if you don't end up firing.
Whatever you do, DO NOT buy the tins labeled For Reenactment Use. Seems like every store has them on the shelf now and they have about as much powder as a cap gun.
Thats exactly the reason I chose to go with #11 caps. As Sabotloader has said many times on the forum, the #11 cap fit way tighter on the nipple. I will be hunting during the late season when rain/snow is almost a given. I want a cap that will be tight and not let water in. I also don't want to have to worry about my cap coming loose and falling off while I'm out in the field. I don't mind having to take my pocket knife out to pry a #11 cap off. The extra protection from the elements and from the cap coming loose is worth the extra few seconds it takes to get the cap off.
I certainly want to echo your thoughts... about the #11 with the correct sized nipple. I would not say that it is totally water proof but if it fits the post tightly and you push it on correctly it will be very difficult for water to get up inside the cap. Also this tight fit directs almost all of the heat from the firing the cap down the nipple post to the flash channel and the load.
But, I admit they will not fall off the post easily if you want to decap... and if you decap one I probably would not use that cap for hunting again - at hunting in foul weather.
With a Musket cap you do get a longer burn but the temperature of the burn of a #11 MAG and Musket Cap are the same and the flash channel in both nipples are the same.
It really comes down to what you are comforatable with. For myself it is #11 mag and T7-3f
Post by: adamR on September 27, 2012, 05:55:07 AM
I bought my wife the same muzzle loader this spring and shot it a couple times no problem and about a month ago it started doing the same thing. Took her shooting last night and got so pissed because it would fire worth a damn.
It seems wierd that the guns would be to blame if they quit working at the same time. Every spring I buy a new nipple and breech plug to have on hand and thats what I shoot with that year, so they both have brand new factory nipples.
Is it possible for caps to go bad with age? I've had the same container for almost three years now. any other ideas? Other than the traditional "traditions vorteks suck".
Post by: andersonjk4 on September 27, 2012, 07:53:20 AM
Post by: washingtonmuley on September 27, 2012, 08:02:19 AM
I have a CVA Elkhorn and have been doing some load testing with it. I bought a package of CCI #11 Mag caps from Cabela's about 6 months ago and shot them during my first testing. They shot good, but I did get a few that didn't fire. I assumed it was just due to me not pushing the cap onto the nipple hard enough. I started using the back of my capper to push the cap onto the nipple and didn't have any problems after that. Recently I put in an order to Powder Valley and ended up ordering 1000 of the CCI #11 Mag caps because they have much better prices. I went out to the range to do some more testing recently and was having problems with the new caps from PV not firing. Initially I thought I just wasn't getting the caps on tight enough, but then I started trying the old caps I bought from Cabela's and they seemed to fire more regularly, but I still had a couple not fire. This is very frustrating because I don't want to be in a hunting situation and not have my cap fire. The caps do seem to fit on the nipple very tight. The caps that don't fire have to be pryed off the nipple with a pocket knife or little screwdriver and it takes considerable force to pop them off. The firing pin is leaving a nice mark in the caps and usually busts the charge in the cap up when it hits it. Has anyone experienced this before? Do I have a bad batch of caps, or am I not getting my caps on tight enough?I had the same problem with the same gun. I tried everything and could not get it to fire consistently. According to CVA it was a common problem but the had no solutions that worked. Get rid of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Heredoggydoggy on September 27, 2012, 09:00:18 AM
Post by: Russ McDonald on October 05, 2012, 03:50:31 PM
Post by: andersonjk4 on October 09, 2012, 08:20:22 AM