Post by: Mudman on August 18, 2012, 03:07:22 PM
Post by: Button Nubbs on August 18, 2012, 03:13:51 PM
Post by: Johnb317 on August 18, 2012, 03:21:45 PM
Also, what caliber pistol? Don't know if there is a better or worse unless you add 12 gauge with slugs.
Need to find someone who has used both :yike:
Post by: Huntbear on August 18, 2012, 03:42:37 PM
Im curious if anyone uses the stuff or have used it on bear/cat? Is it effective or is a sidearm still the preferred method.
Easiest way to tell if it is bear scat??? It smells lie pepper spray!!!
I carry a handgun here where I do not have to worry about Grizzly.... in Grizzly country, I would carry a 12 ga. 18 in. barrel with rifle sights with extended mag tube, loaded to the gills with 00 buck and slugs.. The bear may very well get me.. but he is gonna be so sick from lead he wont be able to eat me....
Post by: Johnb317 on August 18, 2012, 04:04:14 PM
http://www.glacier-national-park-travel-guide.com/firearms-in-glacier-national-park.html (http://www.glacier-national-park-travel-guide.com/firearms-in-glacier-national-park.html)
Post by: runamuk on August 18, 2012, 04:29:24 PM
I found I never had run ins with bears ever when I had my dog with me...every single bear incident in my life I had been without a dog and either without a gun or undergunned, however a gun does make noise so if bells and whistles are gonna work then so should a few bangs :dunno:
and having owned and carried a very gnarly pepper spray (back in my non gun days), I cannot imagine myself functioning if I shot that stuff and the wind was slightly off, I cannot even use black pepper anymore it makes me cough, sneeze and choke so bad.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on August 18, 2012, 04:36:15 PM
Post by: pat riotic on August 18, 2012, 04:39:51 PM
Post by: washelkhunter on August 18, 2012, 04:47:14 PM
Post by: NW-GSP on August 18, 2012, 04:49:55 PM
I have also seen hikers with bear spray that have it hanging from their back pack and still would not be able to draw it quickly
Post by: NW-GSP on August 18, 2012, 04:50:26 PM
Wasp Killer: $3 a can.
brake cleaner works even better
Post by: Mudman on August 18, 2012, 04:54:54 PM
Post by: washelkhunter on August 18, 2012, 04:59:06 PM
Wasp Killer: $3 a can.
brake cleaner works even better
Will it throw a concentrated stream of product 20+ feet?
Post by: runamuk on August 18, 2012, 05:01:21 PM
Post by: Huntbear on August 18, 2012, 05:03:44 PM
Im thinking alot of people who carry are not packing a gun strong enough for a charging bear? Also it would be very dificult to hit bear accurately in time. 50yards in three seconds! If closer I dont think I could draw aim and shoot before bear was on me. Very dificult. These points are very interesting and do make sense however when armed I cant help but think I can protect myself just fine. I wonder if this feeling of safety is simply ignorance. The bear spray seems very practical easy to pack and use quickly and aim isnt crucial. I may just go with the spray at times and avoid the headache of worrying about guns. Besides I dont have a 50cal. :chuckle: :twocents:
I have a twisted train of thought I guess.... My thinking is this.... bear charges, even if I am unable to stop him from getting to me... I will stick that gun in its belly and shoot.... or stick it in its mouth and shoot... if all else fails,, put it to my own head and shoot, so I am not eaten alive.....
As for size of gun.... Ruger Redhawk .44 mag. Hand loads are 300 gr. Sierra JSP (designed for bear and russian boar) pushed with a near max load of H110. They hurt to shoot a lot of...
I may be delusional or ignorant to think I can save myself or anyone else from a bear attack with this set up.. but is better than spraying bear spray or any other spray and having it blind me because the wind swirled.. and then I have no clue where the bear is....
Post by: Fishstiq on August 18, 2012, 05:07:43 PM
Read this, also some of the comments below
http://www.glacier-national-park-travel-guide.com/firearms-in-glacier-national-park.html (http://www.glacier-national-park-travel-guide.com/firearms-in-glacier-national-park.html)
In the above cited article...
"It seems that many individuals here are more scared of humans in National Parks than wildlife. To that, I'm sorry you are so terrified of your own species. 99.9% wish to do you no harm. And you'll probably never encounter the other 0.1%"
This guy is a moron. 1, I carry a gun, so I'm not "terrified" of anyone. 2, where does this jackwad get his statistics? 99.9% of people mean you no harm? Pulls them out of his @$$ I assume. 3, you'll probably never encounter people who mean you harm? Hey jackwad, go take a tour of a prison, or attend any of the thousands of meetings that take place daily in this country that are support and therapy groups for victims of crimes. Your sheltered, naeve, ignorant opinion might change a little. Save your melodramatic "sighs" and assumptions of self grandeure for the sheep who don't know or don't care enough to take care of themselves and their loved ones. Jackwad.
As to the op, I don't know if bear spray works or not, or how well. To me it doesn't matter, with or without bear spray, I'm still carrying a gun.
*edit- if I don't have time to draw a gun and shoot, how do I have time to pull a can of bear spray (which is likely NOT in a holster 4 inches from my hand) and spray?
Post by: Johnb317 on August 18, 2012, 05:08:45 PM
http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/alaska-bear-attack-shot-too-late (http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/alaska-bear-attack-shot-too-late)
Friend of mine was up in Alaska and their guide (on foot) was attacked, whole thing lasted about 45 seconds, guide was torn up, lost a couple mules with gear, and no time to pull a rifle etc.. Lucky for the guide they had a large first aid kit.
I bow hunt so I worry about startling a black bear, but how often has someone been attacked by a black bear?
Post by: Huntbear on August 18, 2012, 05:13:01 PM
Even with a rifle unless you hit bone and stop the bear ( grizz? ). It's able to do some damage before it dies. Also considering they can move around 35 mph you need to be a good shot. The more I read I'm voting spray. Lighter to carry too.
http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/alaska-bear-attack-shot-too-late (http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/alaska-bear-attack-shot-too-late)
Friend of mine was up in Alaska and their guide (on foot) was attacked, whole thing lasted about 45 seconds, guide was torn up, lost a couple mules with gear, and no time to pull a rifle etc.. Lucky for the guide they had a large first aid kit.
I bow hunt so I worry about startling a black bear, but how often has someone been attacked by a black bear?
If a blackbear attacks.. it is looking for dinner,... fight to the death....
Post by: Johnb317 on August 18, 2012, 05:20:04 PM
I'm a 30 year NRA member, but the question is gun vs spray with bears and which will leave the hiker/hunter unscathed by the confrontation.
From what I've read if youre talking grizz it's shotgun with slugs or spray.
:yeah: on the black bear.
Red wine with hunters white with fishermen. :: :chuckle:
Post by: Huntbear on August 18, 2012, 05:23:25 PM
Post by: hughjorgan on August 18, 2012, 05:40:33 PM
Post by: NW-GSP on August 18, 2012, 05:45:41 PM
Post by: NW-GSP on August 18, 2012, 05:47:15 PM
I would take a pistol 100% of the time. If you think bear spray is the way to go, good for you, but do yourself a favor and have some one spray you in the face with some OC and see what it does to you. If that spray gets you and not the bear you are f--ked. Think about it, most guys hunt into the wind, not with the wind at your back. Bear spray works no doubt, but I would rather take my sidearm with 17 hollow tip bullets over spray.
the hollow tips are not going to get you the desired effect that you want, hard cast lead is what you want. bone breaking damage is what you want
Post by: Wazukie on August 18, 2012, 06:31:21 PM
Post by: Mudman on August 18, 2012, 06:36:41 PM
Post by: Huntbear on August 18, 2012, 08:06:35 PM
Even when you have a rifle and know about where the bear is... :yike: :yike: :yike:
Last 2 minutes are when all the fun happens.... :chuckle: :chuckle:
http://www.huntingreport.com/video_hunt_list_species_details.cfm?id=6 (http://www.huntingreport.com/video_hunt_list_species_details.cfm?id=6)
Post by: jaymark6655 on August 18, 2012, 08:14:45 PM
Post by: Kowsrule30 on August 18, 2012, 08:36:28 PM
In the woods I carry my .40 with with solids....... No spray for me.... On the street or home it's Hydrashoks.... :tup:
Post by: MikeWalking on August 18, 2012, 08:47:35 PM
That second time, another guy well, well West of me survived a mauling only by spraying the Griz in the face as it chewed on his pack while holding him face down. He lost most of his thigh after surprising a Griz in the willows. He got him from about 5 feet away.
Bear Spray is said not to work so well on Blackies, more mucous in the nose & eyes.
If it's not raining hard and the wind isn't blowing faster than a walking pace most people are far better off with spray. A determined Griz can soak up a lot of damage and keep fighting. I wouldn't bet my life on a Handgun although I slept with a Redhawk tied to my wrist loaded with Buffalo Bore Hard Cast 330gr+p, yes they hurt to shoot. The 1895gs was a little to long to swing in a tent....Same trip as that mauling? 2 more folks were killed in their tent and fed on not so far from me. They found his 1895gs lever half worked unfired...(lifelong Alaskans)
I did a test spray one morning as I started down the riverbed I was on. Had a light breeze at my back. A quick spritz at arms length. I got a little bit back on my lips, nose and cheeks below the rims of my glasses. The CS the Army hit us with was nothing in comparison..
Post by: Battle Ready on August 19, 2012, 04:38:51 PM
I say have a 10mm with a picateny rail with a bear spray attachment..ha ha. Oh and screaming like a sissy wouldnt hurt either! :chuckle:
Post by: Bshiftbc on August 19, 2012, 06:55:54 PM
I will be headed into Griz country (37 miles deep on horses) in the Yellowstone ecosystem with a couple of guide buddies next month. I have been researching this very subject with vigor!
Their protocol is very much like MikeWalking wrote about.
1895 guide guns when possible and .44 mags in the tents. They also carry spray as the first line of defense. They have used the spray with good results.
Wasp spray is NOT a good alternative according to my reading. This is mainly due to wasp spray is a stream and not a fog (harder to get a good hit).
A good byproduct of this trip is that my bride bought me a new SW 44 (engraved) for my 50th birthday in May. She told me she hated to spend that kind of money, but didn't want her husband to be bear sh!t either!
An interesting perspective I came up with about the gun....Bears (like most animals) can sense fear. You should feel more confident with a gun than without. This confidence alone (real or perceived) can be the difference.
Post by: MikeWalking on August 19, 2012, 07:08:51 PM
Quote
A good byproduct of this trip is that my bride bought me a new SW 44 (engraved) for my 50th birthday in May. She told me she hated to spend that kind of money, but didn't want her husband to be bear sh!t either!
Has she got a sister willing to settle a bit... :chuckle: :chuckle:
Good point about the Wasp spray. I always took that as a joke...
FWIW My first brand of Bear Spray...Counter Assault? The Ad with the bloody hunter (it's creator) came with a chest harness and a spandex sock type holster. The retention strap keeps the can pointed forward so all you have to do is press the button. It was a bit much to wear under my backpack and didn't sit well with my pack straps. The holster comes off and has a loop. I put a D-ring through it and hung it from a loop on my left shoulder strap. I hung the 1895 off the other side the same way with an extra D-ring. One on the pack and one around the sling (Safari Sling)
Post by: Fireant11 on August 19, 2012, 09:29:29 PM
Post by: sled on August 19, 2012, 09:43:28 PM
My bear mase sprays 10mm :tup: :chuckle::yeah:
Post by: oldcamper on August 21, 2012, 07:33:10 PM
Post by: MikeWalking on August 22, 2012, 03:21:40 AM
Post by: sirmissalot on August 22, 2012, 09:41:49 AM
Wasp spray sounds like a horrible idea. For one, usually the cans are huge. #2 I've used plenty of it around the house, spraying hives straight up into the eaves and overhangs and can't say I've ever felt a burning sensation in my eyes, face or skin like you would with bear spray. :twocents:
Oh, and I carry a 44 mag in a S&W alaskan backpacker, shooting 300 grain handloads. I do sleep with a can of spray next to me up in the mountains though.
Post by: smartazz171 on August 22, 2012, 03:48:21 PM
Think about it guys, unless its a black bear (which is extremely rare even by bear attack stats), most grizzly's attack cause they see you as a threat. Shooting them while already charging you, even if you destroyed there lungs/and or heart, wouldn't save you. Yes it would kill the bear but all it sees is you as a threat and now its in pain and only contributes you for that pain. My :twocents: I don't need to carry a gun to feel more confident. Some times a bear does a Bluff charge to intimidate a threat, you shoot and wound it during a bluff and its gonna come full at you. the research speaks for itself.
Bear spray for me....
Post by: Glockster on August 22, 2012, 04:37:10 PM
A brown bear knows he can kick your azz so many times it will be a bluff charge.
A black bear, if he comes for you, is trying to kill you.
In a bear heavy areas of AK, i carry both spray and .44 mag handgun or 12ga shotgun. In lower 48 black bear & lion only areas i carry a 10mm.
There's a great article in Sports Afield this month where their author interviews the author of the study that said guns and spray are about even in "success".
Post by: Mudman on August 22, 2012, 09:55:02 PM
Post by: MikeWalking on August 23, 2012, 02:06:06 AM
don't underestimate blackbears.
A brown bear knows he can kick your azz so many times it will be a bluff charge.
A black bear, if he comes for you, is trying to kill you.
In a bear heavy areas of AK, i carry both spray and .44 mag handgun or 12ga shotgun. In lower 48 black bear & lion only areas i carry a 10mm.
There's a great article in Sports Afield this month where their author interviews the author of the study that said guns and spray are about even in "success".
I've read that too. A Grizzly charge is most often defensive and may often be a bluff, although many have gone real bad. A Black Bear charge is most often predatory. I got charged coming up the PCT on the backside of the Stevens Pass Ski Area one summer. No where to go, I was at the corner of a switch back, all day drop one side...just put the .357 in the pack "so close to the trail head" :bash: when it finally saw me through the brush it spun off like a Gold Medal gymnast :chuckle: The side arm now stays on till the tail gate is lifted...
Post by: smartazz171 on August 23, 2012, 06:54:04 AM
Post by: Glockster on August 23, 2012, 07:55:32 AM
Problem with brown bear bluff charges is you have to be pretty experienced to know the difference and it's always best to error on the side of caution of course. I can tell you when you shoot a bear in self defense in AK, you will have a full forensics investigation and a pile of paperwork...but of course it's always better to stay breathing.
Good luck all in bear country.
Post by: AKBowman on August 23, 2012, 08:31:18 AM
That being said, I do carry a .45 b/c cougars freak me out...sneaky little *censored*s
Post by: sirmissalot on August 23, 2012, 08:42:37 AM
Post by: Glockster on August 23, 2012, 08:54:37 AM
Post by: Johnb317 on August 23, 2012, 09:42:05 AM
One was the Bellevue city council member.... old bear, and I think he was first going for the dogs.
The other a jogger in 2011, and then a hunter back in 06... no fatalities.
From what I can see we're safer in the woods than taking a walk at night in downtown Seattle.
Post by: MikeWalking on August 23, 2012, 12:56:13 PM
In the entire history of this state how many bear mailings have actually been recorded? You have a much better chance at winning the powerball jackpot than ever being attacked by a bear.
That being said, I do carry a .45 b/c cougars freak me out...sneaky little *censored*s
Aside from what Johnb317 mentioned there was a kid in Eastern WA summer of 2000 (?) that got "played" with by a black bear.. My only real problem, the reason I started packing in the woods back in the 90's were dogs. Twice, way up on the middle fork of the Snoqualmie, way up on the old CCC road I had dirty mangy dogs of a few different breeds come after me.
Post by: Fishstiq on August 23, 2012, 01:38:24 PM
Your chances of a bad bear encounter in WA are very slim....ak bowman is right....you have much more to worry about from cats and the two legged predators.
:yeah:
I carry partially because of a bad run-in with a tweeker while hiking Wallace Falls a long time ago, I won't be caught unprepared like that again. The other part is because I often have my dogs and/or the little woman with me (she also carries), and I worry about them being snatched up by a yote or cougar or whatever.
Post by: coachcw on August 23, 2012, 05:59:03 PM
Post by: Mudman on August 23, 2012, 06:35:47 PM
Post by: Glockster on August 28, 2012, 11:02:34 AM
Bluffs are usually by yearlings, single smaller males. Sows with children and big boars usually come to draw a blood sample.
Post by: Mudman on August 28, 2012, 03:36:15 PM
Post by: dawei on August 28, 2012, 09:14:24 PM
Im curious if anyone uses the stuff or have used it on bear/cat? Is it effective or is a sidearm still the preferred method.I use bear Spray! (And a 41 Remington® Handgun).
Post by: MikeWalking on August 29, 2012, 02:20:52 AM
Im curious if anyone uses the stuff or have used it on bear/cat? Is it effective or is a sidearm still the preferred method.I use bear Spray! (And a 41 Remington® Handgun).
I've seen caged Bears sprayed with it, not pretty. Bet it would work great on cat.
One thing to consider. Backpacker Magazine ran a story years back. Folks at the U. of Fairbanks got curious and did an experiment. The hosed a bush with a full can of Bear Spray and set up a video camera on it. Within two hours there was a Griz rolling in that bush like a cat in catnip, just going nuts for it...
Post by: sidehil on August 29, 2012, 06:23:33 AM
Post by: sidehil on August 29, 2012, 04:06:51 PM
Post by: Mudman on September 07, 2012, 02:19:52 PM
Post by: 724wd on September 07, 2012, 02:43:39 PM
Post by: Mudman on September 09, 2012, 10:03:07 AM
Post by: boneaddict on September 09, 2012, 10:10:18 AM
My brother was attacked by a cougar and did not report it. All tags legally notched.
Post by: carpsniperg2 on September 09, 2012, 10:15:58 AM
On a joking note. What the hell did you guys do to piss the wildlife off so much :chuckle: You would think by the sounds of it, that they are after you guys!
I am glad that last year " I think it was last year" you did not have to get into a fist fight with the wolves in the dark. You are a big guy and can probably throw some shot! That being said I would take a 1 on 1 with a cat or bear anyday over a pack of wolves!!!
Post by: Bob33 on September 09, 2012, 10:24:10 AM
Here are a few excerpts:
“The researchers collected every incident they could find of bear encounters in Alaska where people had used bear spray to defend themselves – 72 cases in all, from 1985 to 2006, including black bear, brown bears/grizzlies and polar bears. In short, bear spray packs a punch: it stopped undesirable behavior more than 90 percent of the time (66 of 72 cases), and in only three cases were humans injured when bear spray was used – all relatively minor injuries.
Smith and Herrero followed up with a study of firearms in bear encounters. They collected 269 cases in Alaska that occurred between 1883 and 2009, across all three bear species. The bottom line: discharging a firearm usually stopped encounters – 84 percent of incidents (31 of 37) for handgun users and 76 percent (134 of 176) for long gun users.
But another finding was sobering: bears inflicted injuries on human in 56 percent of the incidents using firearms.
Further, once a bear charged, the odds of successfully deterring an attack dropped seven-fold. Try to aim at a bounding, lurching bruin hurtling towards you at 44 feet per second and hit it with a projectile a half-inch of less in diameter, shooting accurately at high speed as your body floods with adrenaline and your brain clangs in alarm.
And yet, there is no record of a human fatality in an encounter where bear spray was used. However, Smith and Herrero recorded 17 human fatalities in cases where firearms were used as a defense.’
Post by: boneaddict on September 09, 2012, 10:32:26 AM
Post by: boneaddict on September 09, 2012, 10:36:12 AM
Post by: Curly on September 09, 2012, 11:16:16 AM
We advise the outdoorsman to wear little noisy bells on clothing so as to give advanced warning to any bears that might be close by so you don’t take them by surprise.
We also advise anyone using the outdoors to carry “Pepper Spray” with him is case of an encounter with a bear.
Outdoorsmen should also be on the watch for fresh bear activity, and be able to tell the difference between black bear feces and grizzly bear feces. Black bear feces is smaller and contains lots of berries and squirrel fur.
Grizzly bear *censored* has bells in it and smells like pepper.
Post by: CamoDup on September 09, 2012, 11:36:17 AM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on September 09, 2012, 11:53:22 AM
Smith and Herrero followed up with a study of firearms in bear encounters. They collected 269 cases in Alaska that occurred between 1883 and 2009, across all three bear species. The bottom line: discharging a firearm usually stopped encounters – 84 percent of incidents (31 of 37) for handgun users and 76 percent (134 of 176) for long gun users.
I would think we need more info about the guns used to really start claiming whether or not bear spray is more effective than a firearm. I think the survey probably considered 'bear spray' as the pepper spray designed for bears, or did they also consider the stuff ladies carry while jogging? Of the guys I knew in coastal AK, many would carry a .243 (but some even .223 or .22-250) during deer season, bear attacks were hardly on their minds. I don't think those calibers (especially in a bolt gun) would be my first choice for a grizzly (wouldn't be first choice for a pissed off black bear either). For sidearms (for those that even carried) they were favoring .45 ACP, but one of the bunch had a .44 Mag, which I've read is basically where to start for grizzly. So I guess I wish the effectiveness survey had a further breakdown of the guns used.
Post by: Mudman on September 09, 2012, 12:00:05 PM
Post by: MikeWalking on September 09, 2012, 05:57:59 PM
Smith and Herrero followed up with a study of firearms in bear encounters. They collected 269 cases in Alaska that occurred between 1883 and 2009, across all three bear species. The bottom line: discharging a firearm usually stopped encounters – 84 percent of incidents (31 of 37) for handgun users and 76 percent (134 of 176) for long gun users.
I would think we need more info about the guns used to really start claiming whether or not bear spray is more effective than a firearm. I think the survey probably considered 'bear spray' as the pepper spray designed for bears, or did they also consider the stuff ladies carry while jogging? Of the guys I knew in coastal AK, many would carry a .243 (but some even .223 or .22-250) during deer season, bear attacks were hardly on their minds. I don't think those calibers (especially in a bolt gun) would be my first choice for a grizzly (wouldn't be first choice for a pissed off black bear either). For sidearms (for those that even carried) they were favoring .45 ACP, but one of the bunch had a .44 Mag, which I've read is basically where to start for grizzly. So I guess I wish the effectiveness survey had a further breakdown of the guns used.
Dedicated Bear Spray is 8x stronger than the stuff sold for defense against muggers etc 200,000 vs 25,000 Scovil Heat Units. The stuff sold for joggers doesn't come in the sizes or give the distance to even be considered in a study like this. Most of these studies are really just looking at what happen to either crowd, after the fact.