Hunting Washington Forum

Equipment & Gear => Guns and Ammo => Topic started by: sirmissalot on September 03, 2012, 10:42:16 AM

Title: Scope problems...?
Post by: sirmissalot on September 03, 2012, 10:42:16 AM: So I'm shooting a 300 weatherby with a Z6 Swarovski on it. Today at the range I was having issues, shot a decent group at 200 yards, then the next couple groups got horrible. Same loads, all hand loads shooting 78 grains of RL19 with 180 Barnes ttsx. It almost seemed like my pattern was walking, but randomly. My first question is, how do you know if it's a scope issue? I'm frustrated to say the least. Going to go home, clean the whole gun and make sure everything is tight.
Title: Re: Scope problems...?
Post by: grizzlyadams on September 03, 2012, 12:09:53 PM: How did you mount your scope? Is it new? Did you use a leveling system? Locktite? Is the rifle new? Have you shot those loads before with success? Hard to say until some of those questions are answered. :dunno:
Title: Re: Scope problems...?
Post by: FC on September 03, 2012, 12:12:53 PM: Barnes bullets are pretty soft, you didn't mention how many shots you took but you might just have a lot of copper fouling.
Title: Scope problems...?
Post by: sirmissalot on September 03, 2012, 12:54:48 PM: It's acting awfully funny to just be fowling, but I hope that's all it is. I only shot probably 6 or 7 rounds since I cleaned it last though. What was weird is I shot a good group, let it cool, then my first shot of the next group was great and the rest sucked, started shooting high and right, a good 10 inches.

Ive had this gun since 07 and this scope on it for probably going on 4 years. I did take a pretty good fall last weekend not sure it was enough to damage anything though.

The scope is all lock tighted, but I had it mounted by a gunsmith buddy so I would be assuming if I said the rings were lapped and everything before it was installed, so i can't really honestly answer that.

I really can't imagine the scope has anything wrong with it, it was just acting weird. This gun does shoot super tight groups but my groups were moving around significantly, that's what got me worried so just put it away and I'll try it again soon after I torque everything and clean it really well.
Title: Re: Scope problems...?
Post by: grizzlyadams on September 03, 2012, 08:37:28 PM: Hmmm....I am no expert on fowling but I'm sure some other guys with more experience with it will chime in. I have never heard of or seen copper fowling jump rounds by 10" at 100 yards although theoretically it could happen. I'm assuming that was your target distance. If you took a fall and you're scope took a good jolt, and this is the first time you have shot it since then. I would bet on a loose reticle. Not what you want to hear on an expensive piece of equipment like that but that would be my bet. For your sake I hope it isn't the problem.

What a bummer to have a situation like this right as all the seasons are starting... :sry: Hope it ends up being something simple bud. Good Luck :tup:
Title: Re: Scope problems...?
Post by: Heredoggydoggy on September 03, 2012, 09:08:01 PM: I'd sooner think it was a bedding problem, or the barrel touching the stock somewhere. Wood stocks, which I assume yours has, move around as they age. A quick check is to try to slide a piece of paper down the barrel between the stock channel and barrel. If the paper binds anywhere, there is the problem. :twocents:
Title: Scope problems...?
Post by: sirmissalot on September 04, 2012, 07:49:18 AM: My shooting distance was 200 yards. I cleaned the heck out my my gun yesterday and was surprised at how dirty it was. What weird to me is it shot a good group the first 4 or 5 rounds, then all of a sudden was way off. That's what made me think scope issue.

I did check the floating of the barrel yesterday and was really surprised it is touching basically the entire length of the stock. I can't get a dollar bill in at the forward end of the barrel/stock whatsoever. This is a Mark V featherweight with a synthetic stock
Title: Re: Scope problems...?
Post by: Miles on September 04, 2012, 07:56:24 AM: I've had a rifle do the exact thing you are describing, and it was the scope. Not saying that's your problem, instead giving you my experiences. I tried cleaning, changing ammo, sanding out the high spots (floating the barrel), checking the torque on the screws, then I tossed a new scope on it. It held as good of a group as a Ruger can after putting a different scope on it. :chuckle: Do you have a spare scope that you could try?
Title: Scope problems...?
Post by: sirmissalot on September 04, 2012, 08:16:14 AM: I have a scope I can pull off another gun yeah. Before i do that I want to eliminate other possibilities. After the deep cleaning yesterday I want to go shoot it again.

Anyone have any common symptoms of a busted scope?

Luckily I do have other rifles I can make it through the season with, I was actually planning on using my 257 on my Wyoming hunt anyways.
Title: Re: Scope problems...?
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on September 04, 2012, 08:38:49 AM: Another way to check the adjustments/working of the scope is to use a boresiter, you can get a pretty good idea of the functioning without having to go to the range.

After you have made sure that the scope is solid in its mounting and not able to move at all, secure the rifle in a vise, cleaning rack or some other way to ensure it will not move.

With the boresiter in the barrel, look through the scope and note where the crosshairs are on the grid, don't worry at this point if they are centeredisn't important for this test.

Then, depending on what the amount of your adjustments are (1/4" - 1/2" - or friction) move the cross hairs up equal a distance of 4" @ 100 yards. Note the location of the crosshairs.

Now move them 4" left and note the location, then 4" down and then 4" right, noting these locations. If the adjustments are working properly and tight, you should see by your notes uniform changes to the crosshair center that form a nice square pattern, and with the last adjustment your crosshairs should be back to your starting point.

This should give you a good indication if the scope internals are working properly without having to leave home for the range.

If this works as it should, and since you have given it a good cleaning, along with opening up the barrel channel and making sure the stock & scope screws are tight and not allowing movement, then a trip to the range to run some more rounds through for the final test should have better results this time around.

Good luck, nothing is more frustrating that a good shooter gone sour......
Title: Re: Scope problems...?
Post by: sirmissalot on September 04, 2012, 08:49:38 AM: Quote from: Blacktail Sniper on September 04, 2012, 08:38:49 AM
Another way to check the adjustments/working of the scope is to use a boresiter, you can get a pretty good idea of the functioning without having to go to the range.

After you have made sure that the scope is solid in its mounting and not able to move at all, secure the rifle in a vise, cleaning rack or some other way to ensure it will not move.

With the boresiter in the barrel, look through the scope and note where the crosshairs are on the grid, don't worry at this point if they are centeredisn't important for this test.

Then, depending on what the amount of your adjustments are (1/4" - 1/2" - or friction) move the cross hairs up equal a distance of 4" @ 100 yards. Note the location of the crosshairs.

Now move them 4" left and note the location, then 4" down and then 4" right, noting these locations. If the adjustments are working properly and tight, you should see by your notes uniform changes to the crosshair center that form a nice square pattern, and with the last adjustment your crosshairs should be back to your starting point.

This should give you a good indication if the scope internals are working properly without having to leave home for the range.

If this works as it should, and since you have given it a good cleaning, along with opening up the barrel channel and making sure the stock & scope screws are tight and not allowing movement, then a trip to the range to run some more rounds through for the final test should have better results this time around.

Good luck, nothing is more frustrating that a good shooter gone sour......

Awesome, thank you for that I will give it a shot
Title: Re: Scope problems...?
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on September 04, 2012, 08:56:01 AM: :tup: Anytime, let us know how things go.
Title: Re: Scope problems...?
Post by: copasj on September 04, 2012, 09:17:46 AM: This close to hunting season I would be tempted to confirm zero cleaning the barrel after each shot and letting the barrel cool between. As long as it groups well with clean cold bore shots, just take it hunting that way. Then look at trying to work the issue after the season is over.

It sucks to start working issues now, and the rifle either be down or shooting worse come opening day. I made that mistake last year. I went into the Elk season last year shooting 5" 200 yard groups.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2
Title: Re: Scope problems...?
Post by: MadHatter on September 05, 2012, 05:01:03 PM: I would make sure everything is torqued down the same as it was... This is where a torque handle comes in handy... Dramatically differents toques (from your "zero" torque) can throw your zero off and dramatically alter your accuracy. Also check torque specs on your bases(s) and rings...

Other question is did you scrub the bore nice and shiny with a copper solvent? Could be that you didn't get it all and you have a high spot in the barrel that is throwing the bullet off enough to effect accuracy.. I have seen this effect a few times with deep cleanings... I will generally run a patch with oil and leave it alone and very rarely will do a copper solvent and scrub, usually somewhere north of 1000rds or so... That little bit of copper fouling you get is actually beneficial to your rifle... And removing it can have a pretty dramatic effect on your accuracy. I know a lot of people that only want to see steel when looking at a bore, but that's not always the best solution.

Third thing you might look at is the bore heating up after those accurate rounds and then killing your group size...

Or it could be your scope... That is a possibility as well... But ibwould suspect if it is a high end scope, and installed well that there is something else going on...

Probably sent while sitting on the ferry... While using Tapatalk 2
Title: Scope problems...?
Post by: sirmissalot on September 06, 2012, 07:37:20 AM: I'm hoping today I get a chance to do the scope test that blacktail sniper suggested, then possibly get out to the range and shoot this evening.

I will admit after cleaning the rifle its very possible it was just a fowled barrel, it was a lot dirtier than i would have imagined. Took me a lot of scrubbing to not get blue coming out on a wet patch, so clearly it had at least some amount of copper fowling.

I torqued everything and it was all good and tight. I am going to pull the stock off and check everything, then retorque. I can pull a scope off another gun and see what happens with a different scope, but that's my last resort as it would be a pain.

Also, I don't think a hot barrel was to blame, we were shooting other guns and I gave it a decent amount of time to cool.

Hopefully we will see an improvement tonight, thanks for all the input guys.
Title: Re: Scope problems...?
Post by: JLS on September 06, 2012, 07:42:00 AM: The new Barnes foul very little compared to a lot of bullets. Is this a new gun? Did you break the barrel in, or just shoot?

Edit: disregard this question, I found the answer as I was re reading the thread.

It's a Swaro scope, I highly doubt it's bad. Short of a broken reticle I don't think there would be an issue with it.

Is it a repeatable number of shots before things go south?
Title: Re: Scope problems...?
Post by: wsmnut on September 06, 2012, 08:48:04 AM: I had a similar experience with my wife's 270. After a bunch messing around I found one loose screw in a mount. (missed that one with the loctite).
Also, I shoot Barnes TSX & TTSX exclusively with NO fouling problems. 30-50 rounds between cleanings. No degradation in accuracy.
Good luck. I think you have a scope related issue.

Wsmnut
Title: Scope problems...?
Post by: sirmissalot on September 25, 2012, 08:39:13 AM: Ok, so I finally got around to getting back to the range yesterday.

I did the scope test blacktail sniper suggested, everything checked out good. Torqued everything, nothing moved. Cleaned the gun very thoroughly, I think that was most of the problem it was much more dirty than I thought... Stupid me.

So at the range, the gun shot good basically dead on at 200, with a pretty good group for my gun I didn't measure it but it was probably close to 1 1/2 inches which I'm plenty happy with. Next group wasn't quite as tight but im still happy and confirmed it isn't the scope. Onto a little longer distance shooting, thanks everyone for the comments, I guess i learned how important a real clean barrel is! Rookie mistakes...
Title: Re: Scope problems...?
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on September 25, 2012, 08:57:20 AM: :tup: