Post by: Seabeckian on September 07, 2012, 04:56:57 PM
Is all the Mount St. Helens National Volcanic Monument closed to hunting? Whereas it extends into the East side of the Margaret where I have a tag for?
I have checked the regs, looked online, and made about 25 phone calls today with no firm answer. One lady with the Region 5 office told me it was closed because it was federally owned, which didn't make sense since the Gifford-Pinchot is federally owned and legal to hunt in. This has become very frustrating and if anyone has any input, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Scott
Post by: Crunchy on September 07, 2012, 06:32:41 PM
Post by: Ghost Hunter on September 07, 2012, 07:22:11 PM
Post by: Seabeckian on September 07, 2012, 07:34:58 PM
Did you draw Margaret Ghost? Or an adjoining unit?
Post by: Ghost Hunter on September 08, 2012, 06:33:18 AM
Thanks a lot guys. I hate being in the woods and in the wrong. :tup:
Did you draw Margaret Ghost? Or an adjoining unit?
Me and my boy drew Margaret, modern/bull for November. Plan on getting cold, wet, and tired. :tup:
Post by: fireweed on September 08, 2012, 08:23:36 AM
Post by: Bunny Thumper on September 16, 2012, 09:29:44 PM
Post by: TONTO on September 16, 2012, 09:43:02 PM
Post by: fireweed on September 17, 2012, 07:40:22 AM
Post by: Chesapeake on September 17, 2012, 10:32:26 AM
They said you can hunt from the trail and only leave the trail to fetch downed game. They seemed to know nothing of issueing an "off trail permit" to hunters as mentioned on the WDFW web site where it says to contact the USFS about getting one (Lately it says you'll get a letter from the USFS). They seemed to think they had never issued such a permit to a hunter for any of the hunts over the years for the Pummice plains, Margaret, or Mudflow even though all 3 areas seem to include lands specified as "off trail travel prohibited", and the hunts have been around for a few years now.
They seemed to believe the rule was "hunt from the trail, and only leave the trail to fetch downed game". But said I should speak with the area WDFW Officer to see what their rules were, as the Ranger wasnt positive on all the between department agreements for the hunts and wasnt aware of the WDFW's rules for such.
They also said they are working a deal for the visitor center with Omsi to do some kids science camps in the area of the Visitor center and that the lake trail was now a mountian bike trail and the west end of Coldwater was a "high use" area. They more or less asked that I dont discharge my gun in close proximity of the science camps/visitor center/west end of the lake during the October muzzy hunt, but also seemed to agree there was no law preventing such. They said the camps would be done, things closed down, and most visitors gone come the November rifle seasons, so not a concern for that time of the year.
The Ranger I spoke to made some calls about my questions on the "off trail permit" ect..... and didnt seem to come up with any real clear answers. Seemed to be a lack of communication between the WDFW and the USFS, or at least a lack of communication within the USFS about these hunts.
But, the Ranger was aware of the hunts in general as were the others in the office, so I guess thats a start. They also seemed interested in trying to answer my questions and spent a good deal of time discussing with me.
None in the office seemed to have anything official or have a good handle on any of the details. I wasnt surprised by any of it. Conversations with WDFW personell seem to go much the same.
Very polite and friendly, just no solid answers.
Post by: fireweed on September 19, 2012, 08:28:45 AM
The off trail permit you are talking about only is for Pumice Plain hunts. (I have the Whittier bull tag and do not need an off trail permit, but to camp Mt. Margaret backcountry I need a camping permit and need to stay at their designated sites.) to hunt Margaret you do not need so-called off trail permit. Shooting from trails is illegal according to general USFS rules (from, across, toward etc). That area of the margaret on the sidehill between the lake and the monument boundary has always been in limbo. I tried to get them to follow what the Nat. Park does in most National recreation areas with hunting--1/4 mile around develped areas (like the Coldwater "learning center") By law the USFS is required to Cooperate with the WDFW in this area but they are butting heads (mostly over fishing in Spirit Lake) and are having issues working well with others. The new manager is better, but they still need a shove now and then. If you see a bull on that side hill, as long as it's safe, shoot first, ask questions later. The area is mostly abandoned that time of year anyway.
Post by: Bluesdude on September 19, 2012, 03:54:23 PM
First off--Don't believe ANYTHING the government tells you. I learned this the hard way. Nobody knows--even the top guy--what the rules are and what they aren't. Make them show you the law in WRITING. Make them show you the "closure order". I've even had to file freedom of Info. act to figure out how that area is supposed to be managed!!!
The off trail permit you are talking about only is for Pumice Plain hunts. (I have the Whittier bull tag and do not need an off trail permit, but to camp Mt. Margaret backcountry I need a camping permit and need to stay at their designated sites.) to hunt Margaret you do not need so-called off trail permit. Shooting from trails is illegal according to general USFS rules (from, across, toward etc). That area of the margaret on the sidehill between the lake and the monument boundary has always been in limbo. I tried to get them to follow what the Nat. Park does in most National recreation areas with hunting--1/4 mile around develped areas (like the Coldwater "learning center") By law the USFS is required to Cooperate with the WDFW in this area but they are butting heads (mostly over fishing in Spirit Lake) and are having issues working well with others. The new manager is better, but they still need a shove now and then. If you see a bull on that side hill, as long as it's safe, shoot first, ask questions later. The area is mostly abandoned that time of year anyway.
Hey Fireweed, my brother has the Whitttier cow tag, we will see you in there!
Post by: Chesapeake on September 19, 2012, 04:17:44 PM
Hey Fireweed, my brother has the Whitttier cow tag, we will see you in there!
After having done the Margaret scouting I've done and seeing the Whittier unit, I fully understand the success rates on that tag. I bet most folks write it off as soon as they put boots on the ground and give it a look. I'm amazed that a guy would go in there with a cow tag.
Post by: Bluesdude on September 20, 2012, 06:57:48 AM
Hey Fireweed, my brother has the Whitttier cow tag, we will see you in there!
After having done the Margaret scouting I've done and seeing the Whittier unit, I fully understand the success rates on that tag. I bet most folks write it off as soon as they put boots on the ground and give it a look. I'm amazed that a guy would go in there with a cow tag.
Hey Chesapeake! luckily as some members who we have helped with St helens tags will attest, my brother and I are not the average hunters. I have been hiking in that country since I was 6 years old, and have been in the unit 8 times so far this summer. We are using this hunt and associated backpack trip as a "shakedown" trip for when one of us draws the bull tag. We also have some helpers availble to help us pack out.
Post by: sirmissalot on September 20, 2012, 07:21:33 AM
Hey Fireweed, my brother has the Whitttier cow tag, we will see you in there!
After having done the Margaret scouting I've done and seeing the Whittier unit, I fully understand the success rates on that tag. I bet most folks write it off as soon as they put boots on the ground and give it a look. I'm amazed that a guy would go in there with a cow tag.
Hey Chesapeake! luckily as some members who we have helped with St helens tags will attest, my brother and I are not the average hunters. I have been hiking in that country since I was 6 years old, and have been in the unit 8 times so far this summer. We are using this hunt and associated backpack trip as a "shakedown" trip for when one of us draws the bull tag. We also have some helpers availble to help us pack out.
That will be some hard earned meat! Should be fun
Post by: Bluesdude on September 20, 2012, 07:26:59 AM
Post by: fireweed on September 20, 2012, 07:50:07 AM
Post by: Bluesdude on September 20, 2012, 08:22:24 AM
Post by: fireweed on September 20, 2012, 11:10:52 AM
Post by: Chesapeake on September 20, 2012, 12:14:09 PM
Bluesdude,
I'm with you on the shake down cruise part. I sat atop the 230 trail for a good while glassing Whittier. Its been on my draw list since they offered it. Had it as a choice this year but had Margaret as #1 for some odd reason and drew it. I wont complain. Maybe next year.
Been up in there several times myself this year, some from Norway, and some from Coldwater.
I wish I had a packing crew. My pack crew for my Margaret tag includes me, myself, and I. I really need cool enough weather I can hang quarters overnight.
Post by: Bluesdude on September 20, 2012, 03:22:27 PM
Got my packet from WDFW yesterday. They have the hillside above Coldwater in the Margaret mapped out as "No discharging firearms", "No off trail travel". The hillside from Mini Peak back to the Visitor Center.
Bluesdude,
I'm with you on the shake down cruise part. I sat atop the 230 trail for a good while glassing Whittier. Its been on my draw list since they offered it. Had it as a choice this year but had Margaret as #1 for some odd reason and drew it. I wont complain. Maybe next year.
Been up in there several times myself this year, some from Norway, and some from Coldwater.
I wish I had a packing crew. My pack crew for my Margaret tag includes me, myself, and I. I really need cool enough weather I can hang quarters overnight.
I laugh every time I see one of those "no off trail travel signs" up there. No one told the elk that! haha they are doing more damage than a few hunters might do walking around north of the Coldwater Trail. Those silly ash filled tent pads that they want you to use are a joke too.
Post by: Bluesdude on September 20, 2012, 03:24:39 PM
Post by: Chesapeake on September 20, 2012, 05:03:38 PM
About that hillside...on one of my scouting trips I sat up neer the yarder and watched a couple groups of brighly colored work crews dinking around in the big patches of scotchbroom on that hill side. They bumped the elk I was watching right into the brush.
Post by: Seabeckian on September 20, 2012, 10:00:58 PM
Post by: chad s. on September 21, 2012, 06:02:57 AM
Here's the ironic part about my Whittier tag. I'd been pushing the Monument and WDFW to open up more land to hunting, and I pointed out this rugged sliver in the Loowit that was between the USFS "closure" and the Margaret Unit--no reason it shouldn't be opened up, along with that side hill above Coldwater and the DNR land above the No. Toutle. Miracle of miracles they actually listed (some)...and I drew the tag. Now I'll be paying for it. I plan to keep pressure on the USFS, and will give them a blow-by-blow on ways to improve the hunt.
I couldn't agree more. I had a whittier tag last year, and told myself there is no way anyone has ever shot an elk out of here. They all must poach them in that small sliver at the end of the lake that isn't open. What a stupid tag, and a waste of time! When they called and asked me what I thought of the tag after the hunt, I let them know all about it! Just goes to show the WDFW wants your money, and doesn't want you shooting their animals! I was so discouraged I didn't purchase any tags this year for the first time in my life.
Post by: Chesapeake on September 21, 2012, 08:40:04 AM
I couldn't agree more. I had a whittier tag last year, and told myself there is no way anyone has ever shot an elk out of here. They all must poach them in that small sliver at the end of the lake that isn't open. What a stupid tag, and a waste of time! When they called and asked me what I thought of the tag after the hunt, I let them know all about it! Just goes to show the WDFW wants your money, and doesn't want you shooting their animals! I was so discouraged I didn't purchase any tags this year for the first time in my life.
So you are saying there wasnt any elk in the Whittier unit during your hunt?? What was it you didnt like about the hunt?
Post by: Bluesdude on September 21, 2012, 08:43:12 AM
:tup:
Yes it is steep and deep, especially in the east and south sections, but the challange makes it worth it for us
Post by: bradslam on September 21, 2012, 10:15:29 AM
Post by: Huntbear on September 21, 2012, 10:17:44 AM
I am going to keep my mouth shut about the number of elk in that unit......
:tup:
Yes it is steep and deep, especially in the east and south sections, but the challange makes it worth it for us
:tup: :tup: :tup:
Post by: chad s. on September 21, 2012, 11:06:59 AM
I couldn't agree more. I had a whittier tag last year, and told myself there is no way anyone has ever shot an elk out of here. They all must poach them in that small sliver at the end of the lake that isn't open. What a stupid tag, and a waste of time! When they called and asked me what I thought of the tag after the hunt, I let them know all about it! Just goes to show the WDFW wants your money, and doesn't want you shooting their animals! I was so discouraged I didn't purchase any tags this year for the first time in my life.
So you are saying there wasnt any elk in the Whittier unit during your hunt?? What was it you didnt like about the hunt?
I had a cow tag for muzzleloader. We hiked in miles from Coldwater, and there were tons of elk in the little off limits area at the end of the lake. Yes, of course there is elk in the unit if you want to hike 7 miles in, and take a week to pack out an elk. To me it wouldn't have been worth it. If you like a challange, than this is definantly a hunt for you! I think the boundaries are poorly managed as forementioned, access is terrible, and there are too many rules. Furtheremore, we caught a guy up there who was camping illegally down by the lake which rubbed me wrong! It's also very dense, and steep past the lake. Yes I knew most of this heading into the hunt, but I still think it's a joke...
Post by: Chesapeake on September 21, 2012, 11:39:19 AM
I had a cow tag for muzzleloader. We hiked in miles from Coldwater, and there were tons of elk in the little off limits area at the end of the lake. Yes, of course there is elk in the unit if you want to hike 7 miles in, and take a week to pack out an elk. To me it wouldn't have been worth it. If you like a challange, than this is definantly a hunt for you! I think the boundaries are poorly managed as forementioned, access is terrible, and there are too many rules. Furtheremore, we caught a guy up there who was camping illegally down by the lake which rubbed me wrong! It's also very dense, and steep past the lake. Yes I knew most of this heading into the hunt, but I still think it's a joke...
I'm with you on the cow tag part. I dont think I'd do that much work for a cow myself, though I've been know to have no feer of packing elk.
Access is great though.....there are paved roads to the trail heads, groomed and maintained trails, maintained camping areas, ect..... What do you mean by "access is terrible"? Did you want to drive up to your dead elk?
Post by: chad s. on September 21, 2012, 01:01:32 PM
Yes the trails are nicely groomed. I was refering to the fact that you have to hike in numerous miles before you can even begin hunting.
I had a cow tag for muzzleloader. We hiked in miles from Coldwater, and there were tons of elk in the little off limits area at the end of the lake. Yes, of course there is elk in the unit if you want to hike 7 miles in, and take a week to pack out an elk. To me it wouldn't have been worth it. If you like a challange, than this is definantly a hunt for you! I think the boundaries are poorly managed as forementioned, access is terrible, and there are too many rules. Furtheremore, we caught a guy up there who was camping illegally down by the lake which rubbed me wrong! It's also very dense, and steep past the lake. Yes I knew most of this heading into the hunt, but I still think it's a joke...
I'm with you on the cow tag part. I dont think I'd do that much work for a cow myself, though I've been know to have no feer of packing elk.
Access is great though.....there are paved roads to the trail heads, groomed and maintained trails, maintained camping areas, ect..... What do you mean by "access is terrible"? Did you want to drive up to your dead elk?
Post by: sirmissalot on September 21, 2012, 01:29:13 PM
Yes the trails are nicely groomed. I was refering to the fact that you have to hike in numerous miles before you can even begin hunting.
I had a cow tag for muzzleloader. We hiked in miles from Coldwater, and there were tons of elk in the little off limits area at the end of the lake. Yes, of course there is elk in the unit if you want to hike 7 miles in, and take a week to pack out an elk. To me it wouldn't have been worth it. If you like a challange, than this is definantly a hunt for you! I think the boundaries are poorly managed as forementioned, access is terrible, and there are too many rules. Furtheremore, we caught a guy up there who was camping illegally down by the lake which rubbed me wrong! It's also very dense, and steep past the lake. Yes I knew most of this heading into the hunt, but I still think it's a joke...
I'm with you on the cow tag part. I dont think I'd do that much work for a cow myself, though I've been know to have no feer of packing elk.
Access is great though.....there are paved roads to the trail heads, groomed and maintained trails, maintained camping areas, ect..... What do you mean by "access is terrible"? Did you want to drive up to your dead elk?
Aren't there a ton of elk in there though? Seems worth it to me, and seems like you would have known its a bit of a hike before you can get into your unit when you applied for it. I have heard thats where the bigger bulls are at within the margaret/mudflow area.
Post by: bobcat on September 21, 2012, 01:37:12 PM
This is on the WDFW website:
Special Permits
Pumice Plain, Mount Whittier, & Upper Smith Creek Special Permit Hunts
The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) and the United States Forest Service (USFS) have worked cooperatively to develop the Pumice Plain, Mount Whittier, and Upper Smith Creek elk areas and corresponding special permit hunts. These hunts are part of the implementation of the Mount St. Helens Elk Herd Plan, which calls for a general reduction in elk numbers.
Please be advised that these hunts will be very strenuous and only hunters prepared for such a challenge should apply. You are strongly encouraged to scout options for accessing the areas before the hunts begin.
Post by: Chesapeake on September 21, 2012, 01:57:21 PM
Yes the trails are nicely groomed. I was refering to the fact that you have to hike in numerous miles before you can even begin hunting.
I guess its more personal experience/expectations. Where I hunt I generaly have to walk/bike a few miles or several back behind a locked gate or up a trail to get to where I want to hunt. Sure, the entire area is open and I could hunt at the gate, but generaly there isnt very good hunting in those areas. So to me, the fact that you have to walk 3 or 4 miles before you can hunt isnt of concern.
What would keep me out of there for a cow is the terain and that you couldnt use a game cart, bike, ect..... and you would have to carry it on your back. Not that I couldnt do it, I just know of easier places to get a cow.
Post by: sirmissalot on September 21, 2012, 01:59:04 PM
Yes the trails are nicely groomed. I was refering to the fact that you have to hike in numerous miles before you can even begin hunting.
I guess its more personal experience/expectations. Where I hunt I generaly have to walk/bike a few miles or several back behind a locked gate or up a trail to get to where I want to hunt. Sure, the entire area is open and I could hunt at the gate, but generaly there isnt very good hunting in those areas. So to me, the fact that you have to walk 3 or 4 miles before you can hunt isnt of concern.
What would keep me out of there for a cow is the terain and that you couldnt use a game cart, bike, ect..... and you would have to carry it on your back. Not that I couldnt do it, I just know of easier places to get a cow.
It would be kind of a fun hunt though, with about 4 buddies :chuckle:
Post by: chad s. on September 21, 2012, 04:58:25 PM
You need to do your homework before applying for hunts.
This is on the WDFW website:
Special Permits
Pumice Plain, Mount Whittier, & Upper Smith Creek Special Permit Hunts
The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) and the United States Forest Service (USFS) have worked cooperatively to develop the Pumice Plain, Mount Whittier, and Upper Smith Creek elk areas and corresponding special permit hunts. These hunts are part of the implementation of the Mount St. Helens Elk Herd Plan, which calls for a general reduction in elk numbers.
Please be advised that these hunts will be very strenuous and only hunters prepared for such a challenge should apply. You are strongly encouraged to scout options for accessing the areas before the hunts begin.
Post by: Chesapeake on September 21, 2012, 05:21:02 PM
How'd you do with the Upper Smith creek tag? It is easier, you could drive the 99 and look down for elk. But you likely still had to haul one up out of the hole.
Sirmissalot,
Yeah, if a guy had 4 buds lined up with nothing better to do and no elk in the freezer, it would be a one day grocery shopping trip.
Post by: fireweed on September 22, 2012, 09:33:23 AM
Post by: gotcha on September 22, 2012, 11:26:32 AM
Post by: chad s. on September 22, 2012, 01:59:15 PM
Yeah, google earth is like that. Old pics and it doesnt really give indication that the brush and alders your looking at are 10 feet tall or better.
How'd you do with the Upper Smith creek tag? It is easier, you could drive the 99 and look down for elk. But you likely still had to haul one up out of the hole.
Sirmissalot,
Yeah, if a guy had 4 buds lined up with nothing better to do and no elk in the freezer, it would be a one day grocery shopping trip.
Post by: Killercolin on September 22, 2012, 02:29:36 PM
Here's the ironic part about my Whittier tag. I'd been pushing the Monument and WDFW to open up more land to hunting, and I pointed out this rugged sliver in the Loowit that was between the USFS "closure" and the Margaret Unit--no reason it shouldn't be opened up, along with that side hill above Coldwater and the DNR land above the No. Toutle. Miracle of miracles they actually listed (some)...and I drew the tag. Now I'll be paying for it. I plan to keep pressure on the USFS, and will give them a blow-by-blow on ways to improve the hunt.
I couldn't agree more. I had a whittier tag last year, and told myself there is no way anyone has ever shot an elk out of here. They all must poach them in that small sliver at the end of the lake that isn't open. What a stupid tag, and a waste of time! When they called and asked me what I thought of the tag after the hunt, I let them know all about it! Just goes to show the WDFW wants your money, and doesn't want you shooting their animals! I was so discouraged I didn't purchase any tags this year for the first time in my life.
The Whittier was one of the most fun hunts Ive ever been on. To call the people all poachers is kinda brassy of you. If you cant handle it, dont apply. Thought thats not a hard thing to do. :dunno:
Post by: Killercolin on September 22, 2012, 02:37:06 PM
Post by: chad s. on September 22, 2012, 03:47:59 PM
Post by: sirmissalot on September 23, 2012, 08:51:39 AM
Oh and we came out with a nice bull too. Plenty of elk if you put in a good effort. We got the bull down around 9 am and got out right at dark. It was work, but the 4 of us will never forget that hunt.
Care to share a picture? I'd love to see it.
Post by: Chesapeake on September 23, 2012, 09:08:49 AM
I like the hard work hunts. Rugged terrain and few people. It's fun to me, but it's not for everybody.
Post by: Bluesdude on September 24, 2012, 06:51:32 AM
Post by: sirmissalot on September 24, 2012, 07:29:52 AM
Post by: Ghost Hunter on September 25, 2012, 04:44:29 AM
Post by: fireweed on September 28, 2012, 03:20:37 PM
http://tdn.com/lifestyles/coalition-strives-to-reopen-high-lakes-area-to-public/article_ca22c97c-0980-11e2-85ce-0019bb2963f4.html (http://tdn.com/lifestyles/coalition-strives-to-reopen-high-lakes-area-to-public/article_ca22c97c-0980-11e2-85ce-0019bb2963f4.html)