Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Deer Hunting => Topic started by: robescc on September 11, 2012, 03:47:32 PM

Title: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: robescc on September 11, 2012, 03:47:32 PM: I have heard from quite a few people that there are Blacktail around here, West of Spokane. I didn't believe it till I started to see them. I have access to 2000 acres on the south side of Long Lake and most the deer there are "Blacktail" with some Whitetail. To me, they look like a Muley/Whitetail cross. I have hunted Blacktail on the West side all of my life and they don't look like a true Blacktail to me.
My question is, since there is no Blacktail Season for Unit 130, can they be harvested and under what antler restriction? I called the WDFW and all they would tell me is that there is no Blacktail Season in unit 130.
I do know people that hunt them. My friends father-in-law has a dandy mount of a buck he shot over there a few years ago.
What to do?
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: Button Nubbs on September 11, 2012, 03:50:32 PM: :dunno: pretty sure they are mulies or at the very least considered mulies. :dunno:
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: CedarPants on September 11, 2012, 03:51:38 PM: I think per the WDFW regs that those would be considered mule deer and can be hunted as such :dunno:
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: washingtonmuley on September 11, 2012, 03:54:12 PM: I grew up there and have hunted my whole life and have never seen a blacktail over in that unit. Mulies!!!
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: robescc on September 11, 2012, 04:00:21 PM: These deer are definitely not Mule Deer. They have much smaller bodies, have a long tail like a whitetail but with a black tip and much bigger ears than a whitetail. This spring I saw one of these bucks with another whitetail buck. They were clearly different but were hanging out together. That leads me to believe they are a cross.
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: Tman on September 11, 2012, 04:01:30 PM: highly likely mulies, although I have heard stories and seen a few suspicous deer myself in the NE.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/help/questions/177/Is+it+illegal+to+harvest+mule+deer+or+black-tailed+deer+crosses+during+the+Westside+general+deer+season+for+black-tailed+deer%3F (http://wdfw.wa.gov/help/questions/177/Is+it+illegal+to+harvest+mule+deer+or+black-tailed+deer+crosses+during+the+Westside+general+deer+season+for+black-tailed+deer%3F)

this link answers your legal question in a roundabout way.. About as good an answer as youll get from wdfw.
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: CedarPants on September 11, 2012, 04:06:31 PM: I would say cross breeds.
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: washingtonmuley on September 11, 2012, 04:20:37 PM: Quote from: robescc on September 11, 2012, 04:00:21 PM
These deer are definitely not Mule Deer. They have much smaller bodies, have a long tail like a whitetail but with a black tip and much bigger ears than a whitetail. This spring I saw one of these bucks with another whitetail buck. They were clearly different but were hanging out together. That leads me to believe they are a cross.
You are right. They are all blacktail so I would not shoot any of them.
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: KopperBuck on September 11, 2012, 04:27:36 PM: MD - any oddness would probably be genetic, given the occurence you're speaking of. There's a lot of studies out there that talk about the rarity of it, fertility issues. Seen too many deer that share common characteristics in areas where there is predominantly (almost exclusively) one species, particularly with the mule deer.
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: colockumelk on September 11, 2012, 04:43:10 PM: Most likely a Mule Deer/Whitetail cross. I have seen a couple of crosses out in Eastern WA where the two species mix. While it is not a common occurance I have seen more than a few. And the crosses that I have seen look alot like what you described. Where they have a big tail like a whitetail deer but with some black in it. Also their bodies are smaller than a Mule Deer, more along the lines of a whitetail sized deer. But they have bigger ears like a mule deer. Not AS big as a mule deers ears but definately bigger than a whitetail's ears. Also typically their rear ends will be bigger and bulkier like you would expect to see with a mule deer. I have not seen any muledeer/whitetail cross bucks only does so I can't speak of what the antlers would look like. As far as the hide is concerned they seemed to always have the hide and fur that looks like a whitetail not a mule deer. Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: bobcat on September 11, 2012, 04:49:59 PM: Definitely not blacktails that far east.

Can you get a picture and post it here?
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: robescc on September 11, 2012, 04:50:45 PM: Quote from: colockumelk on September 11, 2012, 04:43:10 PM
Most likely a Mule Deer/Whitetail cross. I have seen a couple of crosses out in Eastern WA where the two species mix. While it is not a common occurance I have seen more than a few. And the crosses that I have seen look alot like what you described. Where they have a big tail like a whitetail deer but with some black in it. Also their bodies are smaller than a Mule Deer, more along the lines of a whitetail sized deer. But they have bigger ears like a mule deer. Not AS big as a mule deers ears but definately bigger than a whitetail's ears. Also typically their rear ends will be bigger and bulkier like you would expect to see with a mule deer. I have not seen any muledeer/whitetail cross bucks only does so I can't speak of what the antlers would look like. As far as the hide is concerned they seemed to always have the hide and fur that looks like a whitetail not a mule deer. Hope this helps.

This is exactly how they look. The funny thing is is that 75% of the deer I see look like this. By the way, the Bucks are magnificent and the antlers are very nice ;) The smallest cross I have seen was a 16" 3x3.
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: robescc on September 11, 2012, 04:55:42 PM: This is a bad pick of the 2 bucks I saw in the spring.
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: Bob33 on September 11, 2012, 05:02:45 PM: Legally speaking, it cannot be a blacktail. Specie is defined by location.

Black-tailed Deer: Any member of black-tailed/ mule deer (species Odocoileus hemionus) found west of a line drawn from the Canadian border south on the Pacific Crest Trail and along the Yakama Indian Reservation boundary in Yakima
County to the Klickitat River; south down Klickitat River to the Columbia River.
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: bobcat on September 11, 2012, 05:03:59 PM: I find it hard to believe that the majority of the deer in a particular area would be mule deer/whitetail deer crosses. That just doesn't happen, anywhere. I'd say they're just mule deer and genetically they may be different than mule deer in other areas, but they're still mule deer.
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: robescc on September 11, 2012, 05:08:56 PM: Quote from: bobcat on September 11, 2012, 05:03:59 PM
I find it hard to believe that the majority of the deer in a particular area would be mule deer/whitetail deer crosses. That just doesn't happen, anywhere. I'd say they're just mule deer and genetically they may be different than mule deer in other areas, but they're still mule deer.

I would tend to agree with you Bobcat, but what is throwing me off is the tail. It is as long as a Whitetail is with a black tip and they wave it goodbye when they run away.
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: CAMPMEAT on September 11, 2012, 05:17:44 PM: Inbreds ? Genetic changes from brother and sister in those hillbilly hills in Cheney.
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: KopperBuck on September 11, 2012, 06:36:25 PM: I'm far from a biologist, but I like to read their writings - I'd guess that 95% of what folks claim to be crosses aren't. I'd like to say it's higher, but I don't want to get too crazy. It's been studied and stated by many a biologist that it's just very rare - and again, due to the fertility problems it's even more unlikely to find a concentrated number of them.

As an example to the genetic disposition, think of all those areas with 2 pts... or for those that love to claim a cross b/c it's a 3pt.

Is it impossible.. no, I suppose not. But very unlikely.
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: Bob33 on September 11, 2012, 06:37:57 PM: Well, I saw a white van with WDFW lettering on the side driving some deer over from Western Washington a couple weeks. I know they're trying to reintroduce them. I should have taken a picture. :chuckle:
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: robescc on September 11, 2012, 08:35:19 PM: Quote from: Bob33 on September 11, 2012, 06:37:57 PM
Well, I saw a white van with WDFW lettering on the side driving some deer over from Western Washington a couple weeks. I know they're trying to reintroduce them. I should have taken a picture. :chuckle:

I know it sounds funny, but I have heard from several locals that there are Blacktail in the area. I am just trying to get some input here and get to the bottom of it.
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: h2ofowlr on September 11, 2012, 08:56:21 PM: Maybe something in the area has genetically changed them. Still mulies though. The blacktail on many of the San Juan islands are significantly smaller making you think they could be something else.

Then you look at mulies in the Desert A area and they are huge. Nutrition, food, etc may be the sole causes to these deviances.
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: Bob33 on September 11, 2012, 09:18:51 PM: What kind of deer is legal when you plan to hunt?
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: TripleB on September 11, 2012, 09:32:37 PM: Cross breed
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: robescc on September 11, 2012, 09:34:19 PM: Whitetail and Muleys with a 3 point minimum on on both.
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: Bob33 on September 11, 2012, 09:36:29 PM: If both muleys and whitetails are legal, you've got nothing to worry about legally. You cannot possibly shoot a blacktail because they are defined as being west of the crest only.
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: huntnnw on September 12, 2012, 01:23:51 AM: I have seen whiteys from Canada to the blues with black on there tails.. 100% whitetail
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: NWBREW on September 12, 2012, 01:35:32 AM: Quote from: huntnnw on September 12, 2012, 01:23:51 AM
I have seen whiteys from Canada to the blues with black on there tails.. 100% whitetail

Same here. They are either whitetail or mule deer.......definintly not blacktails. :twocents:
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: andersonjk4 on September 19, 2012, 01:06:22 PM: Quote from: huntnnw on September 12, 2012, 01:23:51 AM
I have seen whiteys from Canada to the blues with black on there tails.. 100% whitetail

:yeah: I've got some trail camera pictures from this year in the 139 Unit that are whitetails that have really dark to black on the tips of thier tails. I will try to remember to post up some pics.
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: andersonjk4 on September 21, 2012, 08:01:26 AM: Here is a little whitetail buck and a whitetail doe both with a pretty dark tails. And for comparison a muley doe.
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: Miles on September 21, 2012, 08:05:57 AM: Quote from: robescc on September 11, 2012, 05:08:56 PM
Quote from: bobcat on September 11, 2012, 05:03:59 PM
I find it hard to believe that the majority of the deer in a particular area would be mule deer/whitetail deer crosses. That just doesn't happen, anywhere. I'd say they're just mule deer and genetically they may be different than mule deer in other areas, but they're still mule deer.

I would tend to agree with you Bobcat, but what is throwing me off is the tail. It is as long as a Whitetail is with a black tip and they wave it goodbye when they run away.

If there are crosses anywhere in that area, it would be on Fairchild AFB. They are all locked up in a small area and I do believe there has been crossbreeding there.
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: boneaddict on September 21, 2012, 08:27:47 AM: Ears bother me more than the tail does. From this angle, just a whitie with some variance like Huntnnw said
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on September 21, 2012, 08:42:22 AM: Sounds like some people telling me they seen whitetail over here on the wetside just because they seen a WHITETAIL flipping them the bird :chuckle: :chuckle: Blacktail will throw up their tails when running off too and it makes people think they seen a whitetail :twocents: ;)
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: robescc on September 21, 2012, 08:44:20 AM: That is what I have been seeing. I was really unsure about it. Thanks for answering the question everybody. It's funny because I talked to a local guy out there the other day and he mentioned the Blacktail in the area. :dunno:
I thing people assume those small Mule Deer are Blacktails.
Title: Re: Blacktail in the Cheney Unit 130?
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on September 21, 2012, 09:13:00 AM: The only sure diagnostic short of genetic testing for whitetail x mule deer crosses is the length of the metatarsal gland, which is located on the outside of the rear leg, midway between the hock and the hoof (don't confuse it with the tarsal gland, which is inside the rear leg at the hock, and which gets pissed on throughout the rut to spread scent).

If it has white hair, rounded to oval, 1-1.5" length, it is a whitetail.
If it is the same color as surrounding hair, linear and 4-5" long, it is a mule deer (includes blacktail)
If it is 2.5"-3.5" long, oval to linear, and same color as surrounding hair, it is a whitetail x mule deer hybrid.

All other characteristics - antlers, tails, color - can run the entire gamut from appearing purely whitetail, to purely mule deer. Most of the research on hybrids has been conducted by JIm Heffelfinger of AZ Fish and Game, and Dr. Valerius Geist, University of Calgary, Emeritus Professor. Both have written excellent articles on the subject for both scientific and popular publications.