Post by: Elkslayer on October 09, 2012, 09:28:35 AM
Post by: Maligator on October 09, 2012, 09:33:06 AM
Post by: benhuntin on October 09, 2012, 09:33:28 AM
Post by: oldleclercrd on October 09, 2012, 09:40:03 AM
Post by: Holg3107 on October 09, 2012, 09:41:58 AM
Post by: ellensburgpo on October 09, 2012, 10:00:48 AM
I think hes only 4.5. At most.
:yeah:
Post by: C-Money on October 09, 2012, 10:20:47 AM
Post by: brackens on October 09, 2012, 10:28:01 AM
Post by: jackmaster on October 09, 2012, 10:28:58 AM
3.5:yeah:
Post by: whacker1 on October 09, 2012, 10:31:25 AM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on October 09, 2012, 10:37:40 AM
3.5-4.5yep- no sway back or belly. not too big in the shoulders yet.
Post by: baldopepper on October 09, 2012, 10:40:01 AM
Post by: Ripper on October 09, 2012, 10:47:42 AM
Post by: Elkslayer on October 09, 2012, 11:09:49 AM
Post by: whacker1 on October 09, 2012, 11:12:52 AM
Post by: sirmissalot on October 09, 2012, 11:36:38 AM
A shooter but would be cool to see him next year
Post by: boneaddict on October 09, 2012, 11:49:30 AM
Post by: blacktailcody on October 09, 2012, 11:51:08 AM
Post by: Elkslayer on October 09, 2012, 11:55:55 AM
Post by: baldopepper on October 09, 2012, 12:00:46 PM
Post by: whacker1 on October 09, 2012, 12:04:37 PM
Sooo.......what would you guys say if I told you I believe that he is at least 7.5?
I take it that you have been seeing what you believe to be the same buck year after year?
Post by: Elkslayer on October 09, 2012, 01:04:58 PM
It is possible that in 2008 he was only a 2.5yr old, but as I said I picked up both sheds that year and he scored 138". I dont believe that he was that big at that age. :dunno:
I can't seem to locate my 2008 pictures of him right now but here are a some pictures of him from 2009, 2010, 2011 and now this year.
So if my estimation is correct he is 7.5 yrs old this year!
Post by: bonkellekter on October 09, 2012, 01:12:45 PM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on October 09, 2012, 01:14:19 PM
Post by: Elkslayer on October 09, 2012, 01:19:23 PM
Post by: Elkslayer on October 09, 2012, 01:22:00 PM
Post by: baldopepper on October 09, 2012, 01:24:14 PM
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on October 09, 2012, 01:25:30 PM
Post by: sirmissalot on October 09, 2012, 01:35:06 PM
I think the deer from 2011 is a different, older buck. He's bigger up front for sure...shoulder/neck is way heavier.
I thought the same thing at first but the date stamp from 2011 is from December, which would explain the bigger neck etc
Pretty neat photos, definitely looks like a similar buck, amazing to me he's not putting on more mass as he regresses. His body and face sure don't show his age. Do you have any color photos of him from this year?
Post by: Elkslayer on October 09, 2012, 01:35:28 PM
I was going to guess 2.5-13.5. What do I win?
You win a 1 week paid vacation! Just send me your boss's number and I'll let him know. :chuckle:
Post by: Elkslayer on October 09, 2012, 01:44:14 PM
I think the deer from 2011 is a different, older buck. He's bigger up front for sure...shoulder/neck is way heavier.
Pretty neat photos, definitely looks like a similar buck, amazing to me he's not putting on more mass as he regresses. His body and face sure don't show his age. Do you have any color photos of him from this year?
My thoughts exactly, I figured he would start getting a little trashie as well. 2008 and 2009 he was completely nocturnal, in 2010 he cruised through one day at about 3:30 in the afternoon and last year one day at 12:20, approximately 20minutes before I went and climbed inmy stand. I have tried everything to pull him in during legal shooting light but he's a smart one.
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on October 09, 2012, 01:44:24 PM
I was going to guess 2.5-13.5. What do I win?
You win a 1 week paid vacation! Just send me your boss's number and I'll let him know. :chuckle:
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on October 09, 2012, 01:52:19 PM
Post by: daydreamn on October 09, 2012, 08:15:18 PM
Post by: buck man on October 09, 2012, 10:35:17 PM
Your too nice. Five years of playing with this guy is enough. Its time to put him down!!! Good luck!
Come on elkslayer ....tell them you missed him once. :chuckle:
Post by: boneaddict on October 10, 2012, 07:13:12 AM
Post by: Hunter Dug on October 10, 2012, 08:05:47 AM
Post by: Elkslayer on October 10, 2012, 08:54:11 AM
First of all you CANT judge a deers age base on his antlers in any way shape or form except in the first year in a half. You can clearly see a pot belly and a swayed back in several of the pictures grant it his head and face look young. Body shape and size is the only way to judge a deers age unless you have the teeth analized. I love these treads because it just shows exactly what people dont know about animals. I would have never guess 7 1/2 but also would have never guessed 3 1/2. Clearly a mature ready to harvest animal. Asking the question when you know the answer is great. Love it.
:yeah: I agree Hunter Dug, I think alot of deer are actually older than people think, or realize. This was a great example and that's one of the reasons I started this thread.
Your too nice. Five years of playing with this guy is enough. Its time to put him down!!! Good luck!
Come on elkslayer ....tell them you missed him once. :chuckle:
Buckman you are correct, I did put an arrow at his feet in 2010, but I did it in best interest for you and Beeman. You see, had I not missed him you would have come over the next day to look at him and thus you would have not been sitting in your stand the next day when your biggest to date buck came in. Then I would have not had a reason to go sit in my other stand and I would have not pulled the card out of my camera for another week or two then Beeman would not have know about that 170" monster I had coming in and you both would have had to settle with those little 130" 4x4's. :chuckle: So see, I did you guys a favor! :tup:
Post by: baldopepper on October 10, 2012, 09:19:27 AM
Post by: Elkslayer on October 10, 2012, 01:07:13 PM
Just kind of a follow up - but, what would you guess the weight of a big deer field dressed. ( I kind of know the answer to this as I know the results of 5 years of "heavist deer contest" results by a major sporting goods dealer in Utah-of course it was Mule deer only)
I have never weighed any of my dressed out deer so this is just a guess, but I would say a large mule deer dressed out with hide off would probably be right around 200lbs give or take. Whitetail I would say around 150. :dunno:
Post by: baldopepper on October 10, 2012, 01:35:31 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 10, 2012, 07:43:14 PM
Quote
First of all you CANT judge a deers age base on his antlers in any way shape or form except in the first year in a half. You can clearly see a pot belly and a swayed back in several of the pictures grant it his head and face look young. Body shape and size is the only way to judge a deers age unless you have the teeth analized.
I agree 100%. He doesn't have what I normally see in a chest of a 5.5 year old buck, nor does his head shape appear that way to me. I would have guessed the 2011 deer as older and more mature. I would never have guessed his age at this. This indeed is an interesting thread.
Post by: bonkellekter on October 10, 2012, 09:19:48 PM
Post by: hambone on October 10, 2012, 09:47:39 PM
Post by: Kola16 on October 10, 2012, 09:51:14 PM
Not to high jack your thread.... But I would like to get some of your opinions on the age of this buck... These are the only pics I have of this buck, I do have his shed from last year. I was guessing him to be 5 or 6 - What are your thoughts?
:drool: :drool: :drool: And who says eye guards don't count as a point(s) :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: muleyguy on October 10, 2012, 10:02:08 PM
I will wholeheartedly agree that antler growth or mass is not the only factor; BUT the buck you are showing us shows absolutely NO traits at all in any of the areas of 7.5 yr old buck; the antler growth and mass is of a 3.5 or 4.5 yr old buck, the body structure is of a 3.5/4.5 yr old; the facial features are of a 3.5/4.5 yr old;
I have looked at thousands of bucks over the years, both whitetails and muleys, and if you are looking at a 7.5 yr old buck, there is ALWAYS some defining feature about him that shows him to be a buck in that extreme older age group; certainly not always antlers, but one of the other features that I mentioned above; this buck shows nothing in his antlers, body development, facial features, etc that would indicate he is a buck of that age. Some would argue that you could attribute it to poor diet, but, all of the whitetail habitat in WA is excellent shape, and even with poor diet, they still show it in their facial features and other areas of their body.
Your 2010 and 2011 pictures show a completely different buck in my estimation based on body structure; look at the hooves in the 2010 and 2011 pics and compare it to the 2012 pics; not even close in size; his feet did not regress.....his body size and shape is also very different between the 2010/11 pics and 2012 pics; nose structure and shoulders look very different in between the years.
I wholeheartedly agree that younger bucks can many times look like older bucks in their antler development and body shapes, etc; but, it is virtually impossible for a buck of 7.5 yrs old to show NO traits of being that old. And, as someone indicated earlier, they saw a 6'3" 6th grade boy the other day.........which I agree with, it is possible to see younger bucks that look older.
But, how many 70 yr old men running around that show no traits at all of being that age??? That simply does not exist in nature. My personal opinion is that you are looking at a very simalar buck, but, one that is 3.5/4.5 yrs old; His antler development is very "typical" of a whitetail buck, especially if the genes in your area throw that kind of buck; In addition, there are very, very,very few 7.5 yr old bucks running around WA state, even whitetails, so ,statistically, you would be looking at a very rare creature indeed that was not only 7.5 yrs old, but, also a 7.5 yr old buck that shows absoulutely no indications whatsoever he is that age.
So, I'm still calling it a 3.5/4.5 yr old buck............I think you are looking at different bucks that come from the same gene pool who are throwing very "typical" whitetail antlers their 3rd and 4th yr of age.
Post by: boneaddict on October 11, 2012, 07:31:43 AM
Post by: Hunter Dug on October 11, 2012, 08:38:36 AM
Post by: boneaddict on October 11, 2012, 08:56:02 AM
Just like saying thats the same buck year after year. I often photograph (mostly muledeer) that I suspect are the same deer. Same local, same antler configuration. Sure some there is no question, others its a guess if there aren't distinguishing factors. Elkslayer obviosuly has more evidence than what we are offered if he gets to observe the animals. I'm not going to sit here and tell him he is wrong, but I am offering what my opinion is after viewing this evidence.
Post by: brackens on October 11, 2012, 11:34:29 AM
ok........i'll bite on elkslayers pics................all of us people who believe it is a 3.5 yr old buck are keeping pretty quiet........so I will just say it: no way is that a 7.5 yr old buck; as deer age, there are a whole host of changes that occur; most notably is antler development and mass development on the antlers; but, that is in no way the only area, their faces, their body structure, their hooves, the way they carry themselves, etc all changes also;
I will wholeheartedly agree that antler growth or mass is not the only factor; BUT the buck you are showing us shows absolutely NO traits at all in any of the areas of 7.5 yr old buck; the antler growth and mass is of a 3.5 or 4.5 yr old buck, the body structure is of a 3.5/4.5 yr old; the facial features are of a 3.5/4.5 yr old;
I have looked at thousands of bucks over the years, both whitetails and muleys, and if you are looking at a 7.5 yr old buck, there is ALWAYS some defining feature about him that shows him to be a buck in that extreme older age group; certainly not always antlers, but one of the other features that I mentioned above; this buck shows nothing in his antlers, body development, facial features, etc that would indicate he is a buck of that age. Some would argue that you could attribute it to poor diet, but, all of the whitetail habitat in WA is excellent shape, and even with poor diet, they still show it in their facial features and other areas of their body.
Your 2010 and 2011 pictures show a completely different buck in my estimation based on body structure; look at the hooves in the 2010 and 2011 pics and compare it to the 2012 pics; not even close in size; his feet did not regress.....his body size and shape is also very different between the 2010/11 pics and 2012 pics; nose structure and shoulders look very different in between the years.
I wholeheartedly agree that younger bucks can many times look like older bucks in their antler development and body shapes, etc; but, it is virtually impossible for a buck of 7.5 yrs old to show NO traits of being that old. And, as someone indicated earlier, they saw a 6'3" 6th grade boy the other day.........which I agree with, it is possible to see younger bucks that look older.
But, how many 70 yr old men running around that show no traits at all of being that age??? That simply does not exist in nature. My personal opinion is that you are looking at a very simalar buck, but, one that is 3.5/4.5 yrs old; His antler development is very "typical" of a whitetail buck, especially if the genes in your area throw that kind of buck; In addition, there are very, very,very few 7.5 yr old bucks running around WA state, even whitetails, so ,statistically, you would be looking at a very rare creature indeed that was not only 7.5 yrs old, but, also a 7.5 yr old buck that shows absoulutely no indications whatsoever he is that age.
So, I'm still calling it a 3.5/4.5 yr old buck............I think you are looking at different bucks that come from the same gene pool who are throwing very "typical" whitetail antlers their 3rd and 4th yr of age.
Post by: Elkslayer on October 11, 2012, 03:09:54 PM
Your 2010 and 2011 pictures show a completely different buck in my estimation based on body structure; look at the hooves in the 2010 and 2011 pics and compare it to the 2012 pics; not even close in size; his feet did not regress.....his body size and shape is also very different between the 2010/11 pics and 2012 pics; nose structure and shoulders look very different in between the years.
Nothing personal Muleyguy and Bone, but I'm gonna have to disagree with ya. I believe that this is the same buck. In general everything you had to say about a deers body structure and ageing process I agree with. However there is always an exception to the norm and I believe that this buck is that exception. That is why I started this thread, not because he looks old but because he does not look that old and I have been following his progress for the last 5 years now.
As far as his hooves go, I am not seeing what you are talking about there and in my opinion the nose structure is not different at all between the years.
Another thing is I have a total of 3 different cameras and many different angles. Also I think the time of year is gonna make alot of difference on the looks of his shoulders, back and neck structure.
So to get away from all that and to point out the one distinguished characteristic that would single him out from any other deer I will add these next four photos. As I said earlier in the post if you look close you can see the scars on the bridge of his nose under his eye. You can make them out in the 2009 and 2010 photo and they are very clear in the 2011 and 2012 photo's.
Also like I said earlier, it is possible that he is only 6.5yrs old but that would have made him a 138" 5x5 at 2.5yrs old and that is very rare in the wild as well. Especially in this state.
The only way to know for sure is to put him on the ground and send a tooth in for ageing. Hopefully I will get that opportunity this year.
Here are the pics that you can see the scars in.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on October 11, 2012, 04:12:21 PM
.
A three and a half year old buck reminds me of a racehorse. They are usually very lean muscle, and act ready for action. They may make rubs and scrapes if no bigger bucks are present. The nose lengthens and broadens, The head will look as long as it's going to look during their life. Eyes are still very round. The brisket is noticeable but not pronounced. Legs look the right length now. The belly line is flat, with just a little up turn at the rear. The tarsal gland will be dark in rut. Rump starts looking more rounded at times and squared off at times, depending on stance. Back line is flat.
5 AND 1/2 YEARS
.
This one gets hard to pass up. Unless your herd is well managed, most bucks don't make it to this old, but you should actually let a buck get at least 6 before you hammer them to achieve maximum antler potential. Now, the eye will obviously not be round anymore, it starts to look squinty. The brisket is obvious where it joins the neck. The belly hangs even with the chest or starts to hang below it a bit. They start walking a bit knock kneed. They seem more deliberate in their actions. Skin on head starts looking a bit loose. Often have nontypical points.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on October 11, 2012, 04:38:08 PM
Post by: Kola16 on October 11, 2012, 04:53:24 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 11, 2012, 06:35:52 PM
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on October 11, 2012, 07:31:09 PM
Post by: buck man on October 11, 2012, 08:24:37 PM
I am going to disagree with everybody and say that to me the buck looks mature in the 10/04/2012 photo. Regarding the scars...that pretty much put's the nail in the coffin in my book. Odds are very small that it's a different buck.:yeah:
I agree with DB. Same buck and definitely mature.
Post by: buck man on October 11, 2012, 08:27:08 PM
Post by: sirmissalot on October 11, 2012, 08:30:31 PM
Post by: BeeMan on October 11, 2012, 08:54:46 PM
Post by: Hunter Dug on October 12, 2012, 07:22:43 AM
Post by: Elkslayer on October 12, 2012, 11:56:25 AM
What's with the lump on his brisket I keep seeing in '11?Not sure what the cause of that lump was. He had it on both sides. In late December it appeared that they festered up and drained, then a couple weeks later they were gone.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on October 12, 2012, 02:18:34 PM
I am sorry ...This post is ment for Elkslayers bucks ... :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on October 12, 2012, 06:33:34 PM
".usually once a buck has these characteristics they never loose them ,,,SORRY NOT TA !"
Certainly characteristics are often carried from year to year but it's not rare for them to drop various characteristics from year to year.
Post by: Bean Counter on October 12, 2012, 06:43:21 PM
Post by: wildweeds on October 12, 2012, 06:54:22 PM
What's with the lump on his brisket I keep seeing in '11?Not sure what the cause of that lump was. He had it on both sides. In late December it appeared that they festered up and drained, then a couple weeks later they were gone.
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on November 27, 2012, 04:20:40 PM
When I can look at their teeth in hand, 90% of the time I am able to guess age within +/-1 year. Without looking at the teeth, just field-dressed carcass and antlers, I'd say I'm 90%+ on 1.5 and 2.5; for buck deer 3.5 - 4.5, maybe 70%; over 4.5, I'm lucky to be 50%.
The oldest hunter-harvested buck I've seen from WA was a 13.5 y.o. buck killed in the Swakane late archery. He was a slick 4 point with average mass, about 20-22" outside spread, no trash, a slender face and a straight back. Without a look at his teeth, I'd have confidently called him a 3.5 year old. Based on his worn out teeth, I estimated him at 12+, which the tooth aging validated.
I've known enough bucks that were notable and showed up on the same winter ranges for 7-9 years, to believe that trophy bucks are big early in life. I've only killed 2 bucks that gave me a twinge that I might have killed a great buck before it reached its potential: a 2.5 year old, 22" 4x4 with eyeguards that scored 145, and a 4.5 year old, 31" 4x5 with eyeguards.
Guessing ages on game animals is fun, but without the teeth I maintain it is a game. The bear I killed in September was a humbling classic: a game warden, a game biologist and an extremely experienced successful hunter all estimated him as a 2 year old boar; when he hit the dirt, "he" immediately became a 20+ year old sow (exact tooth age pending).
Post by: 92xj on November 27, 2012, 04:48:11 PM
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on November 27, 2012, 08:54:32 PM
I have had the privilege of collecting hundreds of samples of teeth from harvested bucks, estimated their ages and then had the teeth lab aged. Even within a local population, the variation is tremendous, and ages are very difficult to estimate based on the appearance of the deer. I have seen small-bodied bucks with forked horns less than 8" long, that any game bio would call yearlings, but which when field checked had 50% tooth wear and came back as 4-6 year olds. I've seen big, stout hog-bodied, sway-backed thick-antlered bucks, that I'd have classed as dominant 6.5-9.5 year olds; but with sharp pointy teeth come back as 3 year olds, including a 29" outside spread 5x5 whitetail and 30"+ mule deer.
When I can look at their teeth in hand, 90% of the time I am able to guess age within +/-1 year. Without looking at the teeth, just field-dressed carcass and antlers, I'd say I'm 90%+ on 1.5 and 2.5; for buck deer 3.5 - 4.5, maybe 70%; over 4.5, I'm lucky to be 50%.
The oldest hunter-harvested buck I've seen from WA was a 13.5 y.o. buck killed in the Swakane late archery. He was a slick 4 point with average mass, about 20-22" outside spread, no trash, a slender face and a straight back. Without a look at his teeth, I'd have confidently called him a 3.5 year old. Based on his worn out teeth, I estimated him at 12+, which the tooth aging validated.
I've known enough bucks that were notable and showed up on the same winter ranges for 7-9 years, to believe that trophy bucks are big early in life. I've only killed 2 bucks that gave me a twinge that I might have killed a great buck before it reached its potential: a 2.5 year old, 22" 4x4 with eyeguards that scored 145, and a 4.5 year old, 31" 4x5 with eyeguards.
Guessing ages on game animals is fun, but without the teeth I maintain it is a game. The bear I killed in September was a humbling classic: a game warden, a game biologist and an extremely experienced successful hunter all estimated him as a 2 year old boar; when he hit the dirt, "he" immediately became a 20+ year old sow (exact tooth age pending).
Good post...and no doubt... once they are over 4.5 it's a shot in the dark trying to age them on the hoof unless you are familiar with the animal.
Post by: gjbruny on November 27, 2012, 10:13:40 PM
First of all you CANT judge a deers age base on his antlers in any way shape or form except in the first year in a half. You can clearly see a pot belly and a swayed back in several of the pictures grant it his head and face look young. Body shape and size is the only way to judge a deers age unless you have the teeth analized. I love these treads because it just shows exactly what people dont know about animals. I would have never guess 7 1/2 but also would have never guessed 3 1/2. Clearly a mature ready to harvest animal. Asking the question when you know the answer is great. Love it.
:yeah:
awesome post! agree 100%
gets hard to guess age after 5 years old, but prior to that point........ not so much. you just have to have an area with a solid age structure. most places don't hold many deer older than 3years old and most guys aren't around the animals long enough to get a feel for what deer look like at different stages in their lives.
Post by: jackmaster on November 28, 2012, 06:51:03 AM