Post by: Atroxus on October 15, 2012, 09:04:12 PM
1. Good with kids
2. Less than 50 lbs but not small enough to punt.
3. Short haired and/or doesn't shed a lot
4. Trainable for waterfowl
5. Trainable for upland birds
Could use as big of a list as possible in case she decides to veto a couple breeds.
***Edited requirement list for focus just on bird hunting***
Post by: Kola16 on October 15, 2012, 09:13:50 PM
Post by: lokidog on October 15, 2012, 09:19:00 PM
Hard to beat a golden but... hairy and a bit over 50 pounds.
What is your budget, purebreeds are dang expensive these days.
Post by: Huntbear on October 15, 2012, 09:25:09 PM
My wife finally gave the go ahead to start looking for a family dog that I can train for hunting....if I can find one that meets a certain set of criteria. I don't know what if any breeds would meet the requirements, but I'll list them all in order of importance from most to least important. 5 and 6 are optional, but if there are any breeds that can be a do-it-all hunting dog that meet 1-4 that would be ideal.
1. Good with kids
2. Less than 50 lbs but not small enough to punt.
3. Short haired and/or doesn't shed a lot
4. Trainable for waterfowl
5. Trainable for Upland Birds
6. Trainable for hunting other game such as raccoons.
Could use as big of a list as possible in case she decides to veto a couple breeds.
Coon dogs are hounds, not bird dogs. They are typically hard mouthed, vs. a soft mouthed bird dog. German Wirehair Pointers are dogs that are supposedly multi purpose dogs. They have a slightly longer wiry coat. Not sure they make the weight requirement. Mine is probably a bit over 50 lbs. Peak weight is gonna be about 60 lbs. Gonna be real tough to hit all 6. 4 is very doable. Remember females are going to be smaller than males.
Brittany's would be a good bird dog, but longer hair, and not going to hunt coons. Price wise on purebreds is going to start at 5-600.00 and up for puppies.
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on October 15, 2012, 09:27:26 PM
Post by: Kola16 on October 15, 2012, 09:30:28 PM
My wife finally gave the go ahead to start looking for a family dog that I can train for hunting....if I can find one that meets a certain set of criteria. I don't know what if any breeds would meet the requirements, but I'll list them all in order of importance from most to least important. 5 and 6 are optional, but if there are any breeds that can be a do-it-all hunting dog that meet 1-4 that would be ideal.
1. Good with kids
2. Less than 50 lbs but not small enough to punt.
3. Short haired and/or doesn't shed a lot
4. Trainable for waterfowl
5. Trainable for Upland Birds
6. Trainable for hunting other game such as raccoons.
Could use as big of a list as possible in case she decides to veto a couple breeds.
Coon dogs are hounds, not bird dogs. They are typically hard mouthed, vs. a soft mouthed bird dog. German Wirehair Pointers are dogs that are supposedly multi purpose dogs. They have a slightly longer wiry coat. Not sure they make the weight requirement. Mine is probably a bit over 50 lbs. Peak weight is gonna be about 60 lbs. Gonna be real tough to hit all 6. 4 is very doable. Remember females are going to be smaller than males.
Brittany's would be a good bird dog, but longer hair, and not going to hunt coons. Price wise on purebreds is going to start at 5-600.00 and up for puppies.
Ya, it is tough to get all 6 in there :chuckle:
Brittany's do shed a lot. I have watched over one a few times. It's coat is very nice..........when you keep it in doors. When I take that dog to do anything :o Plus they shed a lot. Although they are <50 :chuckle:
Post by: Stilly bay on October 15, 2012, 09:30:42 PM
they shed as much as any dog, probably less than a lab. luckily they come in a variety of colors to match your decor and wardrobe.
I wouldn't go after coons with one... I wouldn't go after coons with a draht for that matter... or with a coon hound... I give enough money to my vet clinic as is.
Post by: Atroxus on October 15, 2012, 09:40:50 PM
Post by: jetjockey on October 15, 2012, 09:43:02 PM
Post by: akirkland on October 15, 2012, 09:50:29 PM
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on October 15, 2012, 09:56:26 PM
Throw that list out the window and just get a dang lab! Best all around dog on the planet....hands down! :twocents:
Agreed!!! Haven't met a disappointed owner yet.
Post by: Atroxus on October 15, 2012, 09:58:53 PM
Here is my list so far. Anyone help me order them from strongest to weakest in terms of retrieving? The german wirehaired is a bit too heavy, but looking at length of fur on the AKC site I might be able to get some give on the weight if I go with a female and exagerate the weight difference between males and females a bit. I am still open to other suggestions as well. Other breeds that meet the shedding requirements but are only slightly over 50 Lbs may be doable.
English Cocker Spaniel - 26-34Lbs
Springer Spaniel - 40-50Lbs
Boykin Spaniel - 30-40Lbs
German Wirehaired Pointer - 45-75Lbs
Brittany - 30-40Lbs
Wirehaired Pointing Griffon - 50-60Lbs
German Shorthaired Pointer - 55-70 Lbs
Post by: Stilly bay on October 15, 2012, 09:59:18 PM
Budget is very limited if I want to get a dog soon. Once I have a list of possible breeds we will be looking at rescues shelters and such to try to adopt. Not planning on a purebred, but not completely ruling out the possibility of saving my pennies either if I can't find anything suitable from a shelter. If I did go for buying a dog from a breeder that would push my timeline back well into next year or farther. If I can find a suitable adoption dog though I may be looking at around Christmas time this year. I had a cocker spaniel as a kid. Great dogs but I may have a hard time getting my wife to go for one because of the fur.
a good dog is worth the research, wait, and money. your going to be spending hopefully 10+ years hunting behind this dog- might as well stack the deck in your favor...
IMO the best bet for a guy with limited bird dog experience on a budget would be a field bred english springer. the average show springer usually has enough hunt in them to get you by. but a good field bred english springer with moderate obedience training will be able to teach you more about bird hunting than you would ever be able to teach it.
I also think the odds of finding a strong hunting springer in a rescue are pretty good.
even german shorthairs will leave dust bunnies if you don't suck it up, but a springer can't come close to a lab for shedding.
some *censored* will undoubtedly bring up springer rage, today springer rage is as common as rattlesnakes on the West side.
Post by: runamuk on October 15, 2012, 10:00:18 PM
Budget is very limited if I want to get a dog soon. Once I have a list of possible breeds we will be looking at rescues shelters and such to try to adopt. Not planning on a purebred, but not completely ruling out the possibility of saving my pennies either if I can't find anything suitable from a shelter. If I did go for buying a dog from a breeder that would push my timeline back well into next year or farther. If I can find a suitable adoption dog though I may be looking at around Christmas time this year. I had a cocker spaniel as a kid. Great dogs but I may have a hard time getting my wife to go for one because of the fur.
what about a field spaniel.....http://www.akc.org/breeds/field_spaniel/index.cfm (http://www.akc.org/breeds/field_spaniel/index.cfm) not as intense of coat as a cocker or springer for that matter......small....they are not real common but might be worth a little looking around... I used to see a handful of them at the dog shows neat dogs if you are into spaniels.
your list is really tough to get in a package based on a breed, its more likely you might find an individual dog but the list is tough I had a similar one and after much research discovered either the coat had to change or size had to change.... I like big dogs but they are not always easy with small children simply due to size.
I am one of the few who just isn't a lab person so understand the desire to find something else, that said you might find a smaller lab mix. Also my experience is shorthaired dogs actually often shed more than long hairs, just long hair requires brushing to keep tidy and tangle free...
Post by: KFhunter on October 15, 2012, 10:01:55 PM
and she makes for all the points you mentioned, but I haven't taken her coon hunting but she loves fur - I have no question weither she'd put a coon in a tree, her nose would be to the ground and she'd harass the hell out of a coon until it went up some bark. She woudn't have enough grit to finish a coon, but she wouldn't run away. She'd get up close and duck and dodge feints from a coon and nip at it's rear if it ran. I'm pretty sure she'd send it up a tree, but a big boar cold get ahold of her and she'd be ruined off coons I think. for coons I'd get a dog with all grit and very little intellegence, britts are too smart to get tore up and beg for more.
I've seen her run up a tree and catch a squirrel with her paws about 6-8 feet up a tree like a cat and knock it down and kill it. If I wanted a squirrel dog she'd be hell on them. I will do rabbit training this fall, but mostly she is birds.
You did not mention if you wanted a pointer or flusher
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on October 15, 2012, 10:02:37 PM
Ya, a lab would probably be my first choice but wife said "hell no". Too big, and shed too much. :( I like my dogs on the larger side, my wife likes ankle-biters. Personally I think anything small enough to punt does not qualify as a dog.
Here is my list so far. Anyone help me order them from strongest to weakest in terms of retrieving? The german wirehaired is a bit too heavy, but looking at length of fur on the AKC site I might be able to get some give on the weight if I go with a female and exagerate the weight difference between males and females a bit. I am still open to other suggestions as well. Other breeds that meet the shedding requirements but are only slightly over 50 Lbs may be doable.
English Cocker Spaniel - 26-34Lbs
Springer Spaniel - 40-50Lbs
Boykin Spaniel - 30-40Lbs
German Wirehaired Pointer - 45-75Lbs
Brittany - 30-40Lbs
Sounds like you need to "convince" your wife to like labs ; ). They don't shed to bad, let her hang out with a husky and the lab is nothing.
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on October 15, 2012, 10:06:16 PM
Post by: Atroxus on October 15, 2012, 10:12:07 PM
Budget is very limited if I want to get a dog soon. Once I have a list of possible breeds we will be looking at rescues shelters and such to try to adopt. Not planning on a purebred, but not completely ruling out the possibility of saving my pennies either if I can't find anything suitable from a shelter. If I did go for buying a dog from a breeder that would push my timeline back well into next year or farther. If I can find a suitable adoption dog though I may be looking at around Christmas time this year. I had a cocker spaniel as a kid. Great dogs but I may have a hard time getting my wife to go for one because of the fur.
a good dog is worth the research, wait, and money. your going to be spending hopefully 10+ years hunting behind this dog- might as well stack the deck in your favor...
IMO the best bet for a guy with limited bird dog experience on a budget would be a field bred english springer. the average show springer usually has enough hunt in them to get you by. but a good field bred english springer with moderate obedience training will be able to teach you more about bird hunting than you would ever be able to teach it.
I also think the odds of finding a strong hunting springer in a rescue are pretty good.
even german shorthairs will leave dust bunnies if you don't suck it up, but a springer can't come close to a lab for shedding.
some *censored* will undoubtedly bring up springer rage, today springer rage is as common as rattlesnakes on the West side.
I am not totally against saving up for a field bred dog, but if (and I realize this is a pretty big if) I can find a dog to adopt for a fraction of the cost of a field bred dog I will jump at the chance. I am also not in a huge hurry either. Until I can find a dog I can just use the fishing pole retrieve for duck hunting, or try to tag along with bird hunters who already have dogs. :chuckle:
My britt is short hair - not all britts have the long coats, the house is very clean and shed hair free. You can pick up her bed and shake it and no hair mat will fall off it like a lab bed.
and she makes for all the points you mentioned, but I haven't taken her coon hunting but she loves fur - I have question weither she'd put a coon in a tree, her nose would be to the ground and she'd harass the hell out of a coon until it went up some bark
I've seen her run up a tree and catch a squirrel with her paws about 6-8 feet up a tree like a cat and knock it down and kill it.
You did not mention if you wanted a pointer or flusher
I am not even sure what the difference is between a pointer and a flusher. Needless to say I have a lot of homework ahead of me before I actually get a dog. My primary concern though would be a dog that will bring back whatever I manage to shoot down.
Sounds like you need to "convince" your wife to like labs ; ). They don't shed to bad, let her hang out with a husky and the lab is nothing.
We have a friend who has a lab/dalmation mix that sheds like mad, so it's unlikely I would make any progress in that department. :(
Post by: KFhunter on October 15, 2012, 10:18:47 PM
Honestly, I'd buy a started dog if I had to do it again. That grass awn set back training a long time, it was a year getting that all figured out and it's still not 100% as she has a lump still, and probably nerve damage. It nearly killed her.
that FYI isn't breed specific, all of them can be killed with a grass seed. Amazing huh.
Post by: Atroxus on October 15, 2012, 10:20:11 PM
Very cute dog though, I hope she heals up well for ya. :tup:
Btw your avatar pic is awesome! :)
Post by: Stilly bay on October 15, 2012, 10:23:03 PM
I am not even sure what the difference is between a pointer and a flusher.
OH BOY!!
in that case go on hunt with a flushing dog and go on a hunt with a pointer to see what you like best.
Post by: Atroxus on October 15, 2012, 10:23:49 PM
I am not even sure what the difference is between a pointer and a flusher.
OH BOY!!
in that case go on hunt with a flushing dog and go on a hunt with a pointer to see what you like best.
Should I take that as an offer? :chuckle:
Post by: KFhunter on October 15, 2012, 10:24:21 PM
Holy crap! That was caused by a grass seed?! :yike:
Very cute dog though, I hope she heals up well for ya. :tup:
Btw your avatar pic is awesome! :)
yup, wasn't the first time she was cut open either. They'd cut her 3 times prior I do believe, although not all the way across the back like that one - this one was the worst.
Post by: BIGINNER on October 15, 2012, 10:26:36 PM
Post by: KFhunter on October 15, 2012, 10:27:53 PM
What about weimaraners? I've had several. Still have a couple and have a litter on the way. Great dogs. Great with kids. Females are around 45 lbs and great hunting dogs. Plus their beautiful. :) but good luck getting a weim to go into the water in the middle of winter, :chuckle:
cold water pretty killed that suggestion :chuckle:
unless you like to snuggle in the blind :chuckle:
Post by: Stilly bay on October 15, 2012, 10:28:15 PM
be my guest. we could turn my labs (flushers) loose in the morning, and my setters (pointers) loose in the afternoon and get you past bird dog kindergarten in one day.I am not even sure what the difference is between a pointer and a flusher.
OH BOY!!
in that case go on hunt with a flushing dog and go on a hunt with a pointer to see what you like best.
Should I take that as an offer? :chuckle:
Post by: KFhunter on October 15, 2012, 10:29:30 PM
Post by: Stilly bay on October 15, 2012, 10:30:58 PM
no pointing labs :dunno: :chuckle:
now your just gonna confuse the hell out of him.
Post by: KFhunter on October 15, 2012, 10:44:32 PM
Eventually, I'll have a full working kennel + birds
unfortunatly with my work I'll never be able to trial
Post by: whitey on October 15, 2012, 10:54:39 PM
A Poodle.. :yike:
Just saying.. :o
Post by: KFhunter on October 15, 2012, 11:02:38 PM
Post by: pens fan on October 16, 2012, 02:49:49 AM
Anyways, labs are great, labs are big. Labs shed big time. I had a lab and could have made a beautiful carpet out of the hair he left behind in 7 years.
If you have a big yard and can let the dog run, then the Boykin can be the dog you are looking for. They are flushers. They will not point. They don't shed much at all, and two people took my pups that are typically allergic to dogs.
They are rare out this way. They are great with kids, swim like crazy, will hunt any bird you put in front of them. They may.not do you much good on chukars, since they are flushers. Some say their shorter legs won't allow them to make it up the rocky crevasses for long. I would only argue that they would probably die during a hunt like that because they will not stop. And snakes. They are pig headed. There are many spaniel breeds out there. Research them. I have one of my pups up in Snohomish. I'm sure the owners would not mind chatting with you about their little brown dog.
Post by: Atroxus on October 16, 2012, 07:41:09 AM
be my guest. we could turn my labs (flushers) loose in the morning, and my setters (pointers) loose in the afternoon and get you past bird dog kindergarten in one day.I am not even sure what the difference is between a pointer and a flusher.
OH BOY!!
in that case go on hunt with a flushing dog and go on a hunt with a pointer to see what you like best.
Should I take that as an offer? :chuckle:
Oh wow, thanks! I'll shoot you a PM and see what we can work out. :tup:
Post by: Kola16 on October 16, 2012, 09:33:26 AM
What about weimaraners? I've had several. Still have a couple and have a litter on the way. Great dogs. Great with kids. Females are around 45 lbs and great hunting dogs. Plus their beautiful. :) but good luck getting a weim to go into the water in the middle of winter, :chuckle:
I let my friend take his Weimaraner on a duck hunt one time :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: 45-50 degrees, and it was shivering like a leaf the whole time, and it was dry :yike: :chuckle: :bdid:
Luckily I have a lab, who swims in water when it is 15 degrees out 8)
My lab does not shed nearly as much as other labs. On top of that, she has black fur so you can't see it. And did I mention that she can point or flush :IBCOOL:
Post by: Tman on October 16, 2012, 09:49:41 AM
Post by: Atroxus on October 16, 2012, 10:33:12 AM
English Cocker Spaniel - 26-34Lbs
Springer Spaniel - 40-50Lbs
Boykin Spaniel - 30-40Lbs
German Wirehaired Pointer - 45-75Lbs
Brittany - 30-40Lbs
Wirehaired Pointing Griffon - 50-60Lbs
German Shorthaired Pointer - 55-70 Lbs
Post by: Holg3107 on October 16, 2012, 10:50:23 AM
Post by: Atroxus on October 16, 2012, 10:59:43 AM
If your primarily looking for a duck dog then you already know your answer, and that is convincing your wife to get a lab. The other dogs that are listed can all be great dogs and you find people who own those breeds that wouldnt trade their dog for the world. It just sounds to me like a lab fits your bill asside from the size. I dont think you will find the shedding that much different from a lab to the rest of them in your list. Your son would love having a lab around over an "ankle biter," he will actually be able to play with a lab. :twocents: Just out of curiousity why the 50# max?
I am thinking primarily Duck dog, but would like the option of upland birds as well if possible. The weight limit was imposed by my wife. She's the one that likes the little ankle biters, and I suppose my son does too cause they have one at his day care that he loves. :(
Post by: runamuk on October 16, 2012, 11:01:44 AM
they are not the breed for everyone but they are one of the few breeds that still can do it all and then some.
Post by: C-Money on October 16, 2012, 11:08:35 AM
Post by: Stilly bay on October 16, 2012, 11:12:03 AM
If your primarily looking for a duck dog then you already know your answer, and that is convincing your wife to get a lab. The other dogs that are listed can all be great dogs and you find people who own those breeds that wouldnt trade their dog for the world. It just sounds to me like a lab fits your bill asside from the size. I dont think you will find the shedding that much different from a lab to the rest of them in your list. Your son would love having a lab around over an "ankle biter," he will actually be able to play with a lab. :twocents: Just out of curiousity why the 50# max?
I am thinking primarily Duck dog, but would like the option of upland birds as well if possible. The weight limit was imposed by my wife. She's the one that likes the little ankle biters, and I suppose my son does too cause they have one at his day care that he loves. :(
if weight is the biggest criteria...
you can find labs under 50lbs pretty easily. some breeders advertise " upland" or "performance" labs that are under 50lbs and amazing to watch in the field and still very capable of withstanding extreme cold and sitting still. since they are smaller they can run harder and longer and probably suffer the heat better.
Post by: Heredoggydoggy on October 16, 2012, 11:25:44 AM
Post by: Curly on October 16, 2012, 11:37:14 AM
Boykins and English Cockers are on the top of my list for my next dogs, but I never see any around here and if you can find some they are very high priced.
A Chesapeake won't shed as much as a lab, but they will also be over your weight limit and are not likely to find in a shelter.
A poodle is a great idea, but might be hard to find one that is good in the field......I don't know. :dunno:
I've crossed thru some breeds on your list. See below:
Springer Spaniel - 40-50Lbs
German Wirehaired Pointer - 45-75Lbs Too hard to find at a cheap price.
Wirehaired Pointing Griffon - 50-60Lbs Too hard to find at a cheap price.
Looks like a Springer would be your best choice with maybe a small lab being a possibly. :twocents: (But a springer does have longer hair and sheds.)
Post by: Sportfury on October 16, 2012, 12:02:42 PM
If money is an issue then try the GWP rescue http://www.gwprescue.com/. (http://www.gwprescue.com/.) Right now they have a couple of dogs and they put you through the ringer "somewhat" to make sure that the dog is going to a good home.
Post by: bobcat on October 16, 2012, 12:08:45 PM
Post by: jetjockey on October 16, 2012, 12:15:46 PM
You can take the Brittany and GSP's off your list, if ducks are a priority.
Why do you say that?
Post by: bobcat on October 16, 2012, 12:32:25 PM
You can take the Brittany and GSP's off your list, if ducks are a priority.
Why do you say that?
They're not good in cold water. I've had both.
Post by: jetjockey on October 16, 2012, 12:45:52 PM
You can take the Brittany and GSP's off your list, if ducks are a priority.
Why do you say that?
They're not good in cold water. I've had both.
I think it depends on the dog, I've seen lots of Brits who loved cold water. A lab or cheesy or any other dog with an under coat would be better in the cold, but I wouldn't underestimate a Brit, especially if you throw an Avery boat dog vest on them to keep them warm. For west side sucks a Brit would be just fine. There is a guy up on Whidbey who uses a Brit for a duck dog. He says the dog has retrieved over 170 ducks in 3 seasons. I know there are plenty of others who do the same. Again, they won't compete with a lab, but they are great house dogs, under 50 lbs, and much better in the upland field, especially when it gets warm.... IMO the best three options would be a springer, Boykin, or Brit.
Post by: Atroxus on October 16, 2012, 04:17:01 PM
Atroxus I would suggest the GWP. Of course I am partial to that breed as that is what I own (x2). We have had labs and a GSP also, but I like the GWP the best. There temperament, their will to please, their will drive to hunt (anything and bad for cats, raccoons, and such). They can do water, they dive in the deepest brush, and are an all around great dog. They do need to be run everyday, so make sure they get their exercise.
If money is an issue then try the GWP rescue http://www.gwprescue.com/. (http://www.gwprescue.com/.) Right now they have a couple of dogs and they put you through the ringer "somewhat" to make sure that the dog is going to a good home.
Run has me considering poodles now.
I checked out that rescue site and am thinking gwp may not work for me. The site said they are not good for people who are away from home long hours. Due to my commute I leave home at 5am for work and don't get back until 5:30-6. :(
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
Post by: akirkland on October 16, 2012, 04:25:09 PM
Post by: DaveBTS on October 16, 2012, 04:55:15 PM
Post by: Holg3107 on October 16, 2012, 05:05:03 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1115.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk558%2Fholg3107%2F545327_916841171184_221088222_n.jpg&hash=f58751a64d88989fe7d98a9a1be91d05d775d6af)
Post by: KFhunter on October 16, 2012, 05:06:17 PM
labs get cold too, I've had some labs shivering so bad I've called off the hunt and sat in the truck with the heater on, this on an outdoor dog - lab was too dumb to stop though, I think he'd have hunted till he froze stiff :chuckle:
miss that dog
Post by: bobcat on October 16, 2012, 05:13:55 PM
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,107667.msg1392866/topicseen.html#new (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,107667.msg1392866/topicseen.html#new)
Post by: akirkland on October 16, 2012, 05:18:12 PM
Post by: Atroxus on October 16, 2012, 05:59:59 PM
Here you go:
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,107667.msg1392866/topicseen.html#new (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,107667.msg1392866/topicseen.html#new)
??? That thread is about a truck
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
Post by: bobcat on October 16, 2012, 07:13:20 PM
Here you go:
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,107667.msg1392866/topicseen.html#new (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,107667.msg1392866/topicseen.html#new)
??? That thread is about a truck
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
Looks like a free 6 month old female lab to me.
Post by: Atroxus on October 16, 2012, 07:21:20 PM
Here you go:
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,107667.msg1392866/topicseen.html#new (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,107667.msg1392866/topicseen.html#new)
??? That thread is about a truck
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
Looks like a free 6 month old female lab to me.
Weird I will have to try it on my pc. Might be a glitch with my tapatalk app.
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
Post by: Atroxus on October 16, 2012, 07:26:23 PM
Post by: Kola16 on October 16, 2012, 07:49:41 PM
Also, I think that whatever breed you get (which should be a lab :chuckle: ), it MUST be a puppy :twocents: You need to train it when it is young.
Post by: Atroxus on October 16, 2012, 07:55:11 PM
A poodle is a chicksdograt. :sry: :bdid:
Also, I think that whatever breed you get (which should be a lab :chuckle: ), it MUST be a puppy :twocents: You need to train it when it is young.
If it was my decision alone I would go with a lab no doubt...I just wish I had been able to view that link properly from my phone. I could probably talk my wife into going along with a lab puppy that was free and already potty trained a lot easier than buying one. I think I may just keep working on her to see if I can change her mind though.
Post by: Kola16 on October 16, 2012, 07:58:06 PM
Post by: Atroxus on October 16, 2012, 08:02:43 PM
Just FYI. My AKC (American Kennel Club [almost means nothing]) lab was $300
Ya my wife wants to get a rescue dog, preferably that we can adopt for free. The more I research though the more I am leaning towards saving my pennies to buy a puppy instead...unless I happen across another great deal like a 6 month old potty trained female lab for free....<grumbles> smart phone my behind :bash:
Post by: runamuk on October 16, 2012, 08:14:34 PM
Atroxus I would suggest the GWP. Of course I am partial to that breed as that is what I own (x2). We have had labs and a GSP also, but I like the GWP the best. There temperament, their will to please, their will drive to hunt (anything and bad for cats, raccoons, and such). They can do water, they dive in the deepest brush, and are an all around great dog. They do need to be run everyday, so make sure they get their exercise.
If money is an issue then try the GWP rescue http://www.gwprescue.com/. (http://www.gwprescue.com/.) Right now they have a couple of dogs and they put you through the ringer "somewhat" to make sure that the dog is going to a good home.
Run has me considering poodles now.
I checked out that rescue site and am thinking gwp may not work for me. The site said they are not good for people who are away from home long hours. Due to my commute I leave home at 5am for work and don't get back until 5:30-6. :(
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
Rescue dogs often cost 200-300 and up rescues are big business these days....however that said you can still find decent dogs needing rehoming for little to no money, getting the right dog for the entire family needs to be the first priority. I did dog rescue for almost 20 years, it was pretty common for me to have at any time a dog looking for a home, I strictly did purebreds and usually hard to place sorts....dont give up you can find some real gems out there....
That is common with any sporting or herding or working breeds they need to work, if you are dedicated you can fit in an active dog. Our poodle could clear 7 feet from a standstill he was 27 inches tall and weighed in around 70lbs he was a big dog, and he was not nice to strangers but kind and gentle with all the kids that came and went he was active and bouncy and drove me nuts as long as they played ball with him and made him jump through hula hoops...or some odd game that involved flying poodle and some hunt time he was a happy dog. They also are reasonably hypo allergenic. There is another member on here who hunts with a poodle you might hit them up mine is gone and I never got any pics of him out hunting.
I am not a lab fan, just my preference, and I am not a sporting breed fan normally, I like chows, and sight hounds but have tried lots of dogs...at the moment I live with a gwp he isn't mine but he lives in the same house I do....as annoying as this type of energetic dog is to me for the most part I do love this dog....he is great when its just me and him and my "kick" dog ;) dont ask I normally hate toy sized dogs but this one well she fit in my life pretty darn well.....they both have lots of energy and play a lot but they also sack out and watch tv with me or hang while I work on stuff.
Post by: Stilly bay on October 16, 2012, 08:15:23 PM
(American Kennel Club [almost means nothing])
X2
I think by and large most folks don't understand the significance of an AKC registration. its certainly not a guarantee of quality or a guide to quality.
Post by: Heredoggydoggy on October 16, 2012, 08:15:39 PM
Post by: Kola16 on October 16, 2012, 08:17:47 PM
All dogs shed. Long hair sits on top of stuff and vacuums easily. Short hair works it's way into fabric end-ways, and is nearly impossible to remove. If you need to find that out for yourself, so be it!
Don't you love it when your buddies weimaraner's hair sticks up your @$$ :yike: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: bobcat on October 16, 2012, 08:20:29 PM
All dogs shed. Long hair sits on top of stuff and vacuums easily. Short hair works it's way into fabric end-ways, and is nearly impossible to remove. If you need to find that out for yourself, so be it!
True statement. My GSP's hair stuck in everything, and didn't vacuum up well at all. My Golden Retriever and Brittany have longer hair but it vacuums up easier. I don't think it's really something to base your decision on.
Post by: Heredoggydoggy on October 16, 2012, 08:26:00 PM
My first Setter I got for free. She spent the first 1 1/2 years cooped up in the back yard of a doctor's house. That dog didn't care if she hunted with me or not. My second Setter, I got as a pup, and we were practically joined at the hip for 15 years. When we went hunting, she acted like she was worried that I would be the one to get lost!
Post by: akirkland on October 16, 2012, 08:34:40 PM
Post by: Heredoggydoggy on October 16, 2012, 08:39:55 PM
Late spring is the best time to get a pup. The weather is better for all training. Let me know if you are interested.
Yes! By Fall the pup will be old enough to go hunting. :tup:
Post by: wraithen on October 16, 2012, 08:44:49 PM
Post by: Atroxus on October 16, 2012, 08:50:09 PM
I will be breeding my chocolate to a black this spring. I get pick of the litter (which Im keeping) but I can get you a pup for pretty cheap, provided I meet with you and discuss what kind of life tou will provide. Probably have you sign a contract saying it comes back to me if you dont keep it. Just somewhat standard stuff when you go through the process with responsible breeders. Late spring is the best time to get a pup. The weather is better for all training. Let me know if you are interested.
I am thinking if I can't win the great lab debate of 2012 with my wife, I will probably start looking/saving for a Springer Spaniel. I will keep you in mind if I convince my wife to go with a lab though.
Post by: Kola16 on October 16, 2012, 08:57:06 PM
I will be breeding my chocolate to a black this spring. I get pick of the litter (which Im keeping) but I can get you a pup for pretty cheap, provided I meet with you and discuss what kind of life tou will provide. Probably have you sign a contract saying it comes back to me if you dont keep it. Just somewhat standard stuff when you go through the process with responsible breeders. Late spring is the best time to get a pup. The weather is better for all training. Let me know if you are interested.
I am thinking if I can't win the great lab debate of 2012 with my wife, I will probably start looking/saving for a Springer Spaniel. I will keep you in mind if I convince my wife to go with a lab though.
Get her on here :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: pens fan on October 17, 2012, 01:11:31 AM
1. Good with kids......Boykin
2. Less than 50#.......Boykin
3. Does not shed....much...Boykin
4. Will duck hunt...Boykin
5. Will upland hunt...Boykin
The entire group agrees.....lab??????
As for cold weather....Alaska guides are demanding Boykins due to their size and cold weather handling.
As for availability, I have about 30 pups in the northwest, three in Alaska.
As for price...$600-$1000.
My youngest male is getting his OFAs this week. There is a bit h not 20 mules from me getting the same. She is expected to go into heat around Feb. Pups ready around late April. This is if everything goes good with OFA's, eyes and EIC. So, availability is here...
Post by: Lunchbox1981 on October 17, 2012, 04:28:08 AM
1) Avg weight 50 lbs
2) Point, Retrieve and damn good on a blood trail. I have seen them retrieve a fox many times.
3) One of the cleanest dog breeds there is, odor free as well.
Here is some info on the breed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vizsla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vizsla)
Great for the wife because they are very affectionate, loving and clean.
Even better for you because they are a very versatile hunting dog.
Post by: pens fan on October 17, 2012, 04:53:35 AM
Post by: lokidog on October 17, 2012, 07:06:19 AM
I didn't see one person mention the Vizsla (Hungarian hunting dog)
1) Avg weight 50 lbs
2) Point, Retrieve and damn good on a blood trail. I have seen them retrieve a fox many times.
3) One of the cleanest dog breeds there is, odor free as well.
Here is some info on the breed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vizsla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vizsla)
Great for the wife because they are very affectionate, loving and clean.
Even better for you because they are a very versatile hunting dog.
They are tall though, just skinny/trim.
Post by: Curly on October 17, 2012, 07:16:04 AM
Lessee
1. Good with kids......Boykin
2. Less than 50#.......Boykin
3. Does not shed....much...Boykin
4. Will duck hunt...Boykin
5. Will upland hunt...Boykin
The entire group agrees.....lab??????
As for cold weather....Alaska guides are demanding Boykins due to their size and cold weather handling.
As for availability, I have about 30 pups in the northwest, three in Alaska.
As for price...$600-$1000.
My youngest male is getting his OFAs this week. There is a bit h not 20 mules from me getting the same. She is expected to go into heat around Feb. Pups ready around late April. This is if everything goes good with OFA's, eyes and EIC. So, availability is here...
I agree that a Boykin really fits the bill for Atroxus. It is just that it sounded like he wanted to find a rescue dog or at least a dog that was not much $.
I'm a lab guy myself, but I've wanted a Boykin ever since seeing them at the Portland Sportsman show and then researching them.
Post by: Atroxus on October 17, 2012, 07:25:57 AM
As I research more though I am starting to have concerns about the amount of space I have for an active dog. My side yard/back deck is pretty small and on weekdays I am gone pretty much all day. My side yard is fenced, but is only about 6-7 feet wide and 20-30 feet long. I don't have a back yard just a deck that overhangs a hill off the back of my house and is about the same size as the side yard. My front yard is pretty small too though. If I fenced it it would add probably another 200-250 square feet. There is a park literally half a block down the street from my place. Would that be enough space for a gun dog if I took it out after work every day for some fetch and/or a run, or should I hold off on a hunting dog until I can get my front yard fenced? Or should I wait even longer until my wife and I can afford to move to a house with more space? :dunno:
Post by: Lunchbox1981 on October 17, 2012, 07:52:03 AM
I didn't see one person mention the Vizsla (Hungarian hunting dog)
1) Avg weight 50 lbs
2) Point, Retrieve and damn good on a blood trail. I have seen them retrieve a fox many times.
3) One of the cleanest dog breeds there is, odor free as well.
Here is some info on the breed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vizsla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vizsla)
Great for the wife because they are very affectionate, loving and clean.
Even better for you because they are a very versatile hunting dog.
They are tall though, just skinny/trim.
Fairly tall. Very athletically built though. They are just a little bit smaller then a Weimaraner.
Post by: Blackjaw on October 17, 2012, 08:13:12 AM
Post by: lokidog on October 17, 2012, 08:34:39 AM
:yeah: Boykins sound great, but it seems they are a lot more expensive than a lab or springer. If I happen to find someone giving one away I would certainly not pass it up.
As I research more though I am starting to have concerns about the amount of space I have for an active dog. My side yard/back deck is pretty small and on weekdays I am gone pretty much all day. My side yard is fenced, but is only about 6-7 feet wide and 20-30 feet long. I don't have a back yard just a deck that overhangs a hill off the back of my house and is about the same size as the side yard. My front yard is pretty small too though. If I fenced it it would add probably another 200-250 square feet. There is a park literally half a block down the street from my place. Would that be enough space for a gun dog if I took it out after work every day for some fetch and/or a run, or should I hold off on a hunting dog until I can get my front yard fenced? Or should I wait even longer until my wife and I can afford to move to a house with more space? :dunno:
A friend had two Boykins, awesome little dogs BTW, and his yard was not much bigger, if at all, than yours. He works full time so the dogs had access to the yard during the day. He would take them for walks and play fetch after work. They seemed to do fine. It is too bad they are so spendy.
Post by: Atroxus on October 17, 2012, 08:45:18 AM
Post by: pens fan on October 17, 2012, 08:53:20 AM
Post by: Holg3107 on October 17, 2012, 08:59:07 AM
Post by: Atroxus on October 17, 2012, 09:18:57 AM
I don't think $600 for a purebred is expensive. I have seen labs exceed $1500. Depending on certs and lines, it can get spendy. My male is from a great dog. If all goes well, these pups will probably go for $800 or more. Not my bitch or litter. There are southern dogs that are less, and I have sold for less. But hos criteria point towards spaniels, not labs.
$600 is expensive for me, I have seen several people offering Lab puppies for around half that.
To each their own but it kind of sounds like this may not be a great time to get a dog. Dogs are expensive and I'm not just talking about up fron cost of purchase. It also sounds like your time is pretty limited. The more I read this thread the more it seams like it may not be a great time to purchase. Why not start saving up the money so that when you go ahead and buy a dog (whether it be a rescue or otherwise) you are able to afford the dog that you want?
If I get a dog for hunting I will find/make time to train it. My main concern was room in the yard, but it sounds like what I have would be workable as long as I get them down to the park daily for exercise.
As to what dog I would want, from the ones discussed so far my preference would still be a lab, I just prefer larger dogs. Probably a bias from when I was a kid. My first and favorite dog was a german shepard. If I can't talk my wife into a lab though the Boykin is the front-runner at the moment. Either way though I have decided unless I happen across another person giving away a puppy I am just going to save up to buy a puppy instead of trying to find one at a shelter or rescue.
Post by: lokidog on October 17, 2012, 09:29:29 AM
I don't think $600 for a purebred is expensive. I have seen labs exceed $1500. Depending on certs and lines, it can get spendy. My male is from a great dog. If all goes well, these pups will probably go for $800 or more. Not my bitch or litter. There are southern dogs that are less, and I have sold for less. But hos criteria point towards spaniels, not labs.
My wife watched and watched trying to find a golden for less than $1200, finally did, so yeah $600 for a pup with good lines would be a decent price.
Post by: Holg3107 on October 17, 2012, 09:29:40 AM
Quote
If I get a dog for hunting I will find/make time to train it. My main concern was room in the yard, but it sounds like what I have would be workable as long as I get them down to the park daily for exercise.
As to what dog I would want, from the ones discussed so far my preference would still be a lab, I just prefer larger dogs. Probably a bias from when I was a kid. My first and favorite dog was a german shepard. If I can't talk my wife into a lab though the Boykin is the front-runner at the moment. Either way though I have decided unless I happen across another person giving away a puppy I am just going to save up to buy a puppy instead of trying to find one at a shelter or rescue.
:tup: :tup: Atroxus: Good on you, that sounds like a logical plan. Don't worry about a large lot. We have a small 3000 s.f. lot in Seattle and our pup does great. We went through similar issues over getting a shelter dog or a bred dog and my wife finally understood that the goals that I had for our dog could only be met by getting a pup from a reputable source and doing the work from the ground up. She wanted the dog for a companion only (shelter dogs are awesome) I wanted a companion and a hunter (hard to find in a shelter). We were fortunate to get our dog for cheap but that wasn't part of our goal. $600-$800 up front is not a big commitment when you are looking at a dog that will live 12+ years. Well worth saving up for and getting exactly what you want instead of settling. I still think if you take your wife to someone who has a litter of labs she will cave. :twocents:
Post by: Atroxus on October 17, 2012, 09:49:46 AM
QuoteIf I get a dog for hunting I will find/make time to train it. My main concern was room in the yard, but it sounds like what I have would be workable as long as I get them down to the park daily for exercise.
As to what dog I would want, from the ones discussed so far my preference would still be a lab, I just prefer larger dogs. Probably a bias from when I was a kid. My first and favorite dog was a german shepard. If I can't talk my wife into a lab though the Boykin is the front-runner at the moment. Either way though I have decided unless I happen across another person giving away a puppy I am just going to save up to buy a puppy instead of trying to find one at a shelter or rescue.
:tup: :tup: Atroxus: Good on you, that sounds like a logical plan. Don't worry about a large lot. We have a small 3000 s.f. lot in Seattle and our pup does great. We went through similar issues over getting a shelter dog or a bred dog and my wife finally understood that the goals that I had for our dog could only be met by getting a pup from a reputable source and doing the work from the ground up. She wanted the dog for a companion only (shelter dogs are awesome) I wanted a companion and a hunter (hard to find in a shelter). We were fortunate to get our dog for cheap but that wasn't part of our goal. $600-$800 up front is not a big commitment when you are looking at a dog that will live 12+ years. Well worth saving up for and getting exactly what you want instead of settling. I still think if you take your wife to someone who has a litter of labs she will cave. :twocents:
I also hope to get my son and maybe even my wife involved in the training process. Make it a family thing, so my time spent training the dog won't be time taken away from my family. My leanings on breed may change though, Stilly is gonna be taking me out hunting so I can see a comparison of a flusher and pointer in action and decide which style I like best. I really appreciate all the help everyone is offering here though. Never expected this thread to get this big. :tup:
Post by: stryker on October 17, 2012, 10:06:59 AM
I own Chesapeakes. Great family dogs, great animals. They may be a Little out of your size requirements.
I was hoping someone would say Chessie. My male is 105 lbs and my female is 60 and boy is she fast.
Both are certified lap dogs and are great with our clients kids.
Post by: Curly on October 17, 2012, 02:19:37 PM
Post by: pens fan on October 18, 2012, 12:35:09 AM
Post by: Leanne on October 18, 2012, 10:44:14 PM
She also chases the racoons out of our yard, but I will not let her after them because they are NASTY...
This is one breed of dog I will always have in my home.
I got her out of Bellingham, not papered, but both parents were great looking, good natured dogs. $400 because of lack of papers.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi41.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe272%2Fleannematthews%2FIMG_0549.jpg&hash=a90b1eee471639aa9e4423f8d8177369710e1192)
Post by: L-ofalab on October 21, 2012, 07:41:56 PM
Post by: Atroxus on October 21, 2012, 08:04:10 PM
Post by: greenx1994 on October 21, 2012, 08:07:36 PM
Post by: Atroxus on October 21, 2012, 08:15:52 PM
If your looking for a family dog that can also be a hunter, Id go for an English cream retriever. They are a little bit rare and tend to be more expensive, but they are a great dog. I have one that is nine months old right now and she is the most mild mannered loyal dog I have ever owned. The first night I brought her home she slept completely through the night with no issues, and has done so ever since. She always went to the bathroom outside, (with 4 or 5 exceptions that were my fault for not paying attention) She was staying home alone with no kennel by three months and has never once chewed a pair of shoes or showed any signs of constructive behavior. If you don't know this bread, they are completly white and basically a cross between a golden retriever and a lab. Maybe I got extremely lucky with such a good pup I'm not exactly sure since she is the first Ive owned of this bread. Shes flushed many pheasants and grouse already this year and is definatly a great family dog as she is good around all types of people, even little kids. Mine is about 50 pounds right now at nine months but Id say she is smaller than average, and you might have a hard time getting less than that. Her white hair sheds a lot...but its worth it in my opinion. Do some research on the breed, Im not sure if its what your looking for but I thought Id put my two cents in since Im really happy with my choice. Id be happy to give you the name of the breeder here in washington where I purchased her.
I appreciate the info, if the first site I found on that breed is an indicator then they are way outside my price range though. First site I found for English Creme Retrievers had them priced $2,000-$4,000. :yike: Even a Boykin priced at $600-$1000 would really be a stretch for me, which is part of the reason I am still trying to convince my wife to let me get a Lab puppy.
Post by: Stilly bay on October 21, 2012, 08:41:55 PM
Id go for an English cream retriever.
I appreciate the info, if the first site I found on that breed is an indicator then they are way outside my price range though. First site I found for English Creme Retrievers had them priced $2,000-$4,000. :yike: Even a Boykin priced at $600-$1000 would really be a stretch for me, which is part of the reason I am still trying to convince my wife to let me get a Lab puppy.
get your wife an adorable little yellow lab pup that you can take hunting. heres mine, she isn't from hunting lines but she doesn't know that.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1033.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa418%2Fstillydawg%2FIMG_2821.jpg&hash=d2d587be661d2f630c105676f57195a518abebce)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1033.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa418%2Fstillydawg%2FIMG_2865.jpg&hash=fba73e09f6d3af3d54e31b580ce9420fcada1c9c)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1033.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa418%2Fstillydawg%2FIMG_2856.jpg&hash=aa1b21124f646637f83dd5fadb5d6814fe927615)
Post by: Atroxus on October 21, 2012, 08:46:40 PM
Post by: Stilly bay on October 21, 2012, 08:53:54 PM
I showed her the pics but she was unmoved:yike: tough customer
Post by: Cascade_fisher on October 21, 2012, 09:59:11 PM
No doubt! Almost made me want one - hahaha just kidding!I showed her the pics but she was unmoved:yike: tough customer
Post by: abe henderson on October 21, 2012, 11:39:01 PM
When he was eighteen months old I took him duck hunting on a spring creek. When we got to the creek it was -15 and the high that day was 2 degrees. We stayed sunup to sundown and he made a dozen or more retrieves in and out of the water that kept icing over, without a vest (I know, I was stupid). He never whined once and we started calling him plum nuts after that ;)
My best friend just got a little female draht last fall and this will be her first hunting season. When you sit on the couch she crawls up into your lap and licks your ears and wags her tail. She is so stinking cute I keep trying to take her home.
Tucker has also been awesome with little kids. Sometimes he spins his tail end around and bumps one out of the way but that is just when he gets excited in the house. One day I was on the computer when I heard this funny weak high-pitched whine. I looked over and my just turned two year old daughter had Tucker's upper lips clenched in her fists and he was laying on the floor looking at me like "please, please get her off me!"
Anyways, thats my sales pitch. You can google vdd-gna and learn all about them. A draht is a GWP that is still bred under the strict German breeding system where breeding adults have to pass a series of rigorous hunting tests and physical exams before they can breed. Its a great system with some very good, generous people involved.
My 2 cents is make your decision based on experience. Go see dogs doing the kind of hunting you want to do. See how they are around people and other dogs. Pick a breed, pick a breeder and wait for a litter and save your money and get set up for a puppy. Read training books and follow good dog trainers around. Ask questions, offer to help out. You will learn a lot and have a rich experience. Thats the best way to enter into a major 10-15 year commitment and a large part of your life. My 2 cents.
Post by: pens fan on October 22, 2012, 01:07:00 AM
Post by: jetjockey on October 22, 2012, 03:48:13 AM
Post by: pens fan on October 22, 2012, 04:45:46 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on October 22, 2012, 07:15:17 AM
True, salmon poisoning cost my neighbor over $1000. But, people always find money after the fact. Problem is, a $300 lab may end up with issues that will cost well over the initial sticker shock. My one neighbor killed his lab from hypothermia because of show dog breeding, had an insufficient undercoat. Died in 40 degree weather.
Show dog breedings(If you call it a "show" dog it must do some winning in the show ring) typically are over-coated. Meaning that they have way to much coat. If any dog dies from hypothermia the owner is at fault. Crummy owner would blame the dog breeder for his own stupidity.
Post by: RifleRidge on October 22, 2012, 07:19:31 AM
Post by: Stilly bay on October 22, 2012, 03:23:37 PM
When he was eighteen months old I took him duck hunting on a spring creek. When we got to the creek it was -15 and the high that day was 2 degrees. We stayed sunup to sundown and he made a dozen or more retrieves in and out of the water that kept icing over, without a vest (I know, I was stupid). He never whined once and we started calling him plum nuts after that ;)
anyone dumb enough to take young dog out in NEGATIVE 15 degree weather without a vest probably doesn't have enough sense to identify K-9 hypothermia. just because your dog survived isn't a ringing endorsement to the breed, it just means your damn lucky that dog didn't die.
[. My one neighbor killed his lab from hypothermia because of show dog breeding, had an insufficient undercoat. Died in 40 degree weather.
If any dog dies from hypothermia the owner is at fault. Crummy owner would blame the dog breeder for his own stupidity.
[/quote]
:yeah:
believe it or not duck hunters, there some days where you should just leave the dog at home and risk your own life instead.
and if its cold enough a dog vest just does not cut it. dogs are tough animals but they aren't immortal and can die from simple mistakes.
I hate to say it, but if $600-$1000 is your price range, you might want to reconsider. Buying the dog is by far the cheapest part of owning a dog. Hopefully you have considered that.pet insurance is becoming less of a novelty these days and more of damn good idea. I have used "trupanion" and they are awesome. definitely changed the way I used to look at pet insurance.
Post by: Kola16 on October 22, 2012, 03:48:59 PM
A lab is what you need. This proves it :chuckle: http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,108106.msg1412541/topicseen.html#new (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,108106.msg1412541/topicseen.html#new)
Post by: Curly on October 22, 2012, 04:05:31 PM
Smart labrador (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-xjPegJg4w#)
Or some Boykins:
10 week old Boykin Spaniel pup training - part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swFLZfMQr84#)
Boykin Duck Hunt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14P_WSFqsPQ#ws)
Post by: upwind on October 22, 2012, 04:14:44 PM
Post by: Stilly bay on October 22, 2012, 04:24:39 PM
Post by: Atroxus on October 22, 2012, 04:38:47 PM
Several people here have offered or agreed to take me hunting with dogs so far. Now I am planning to spend the rest of this year getting as much field time with as many different hunters and dog breeds as I can so I can best decide what breed would be ideal for me and my family. :tup:
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
Post by: lokidog on October 22, 2012, 06:46:58 PM
Post by: Kola16 on October 22, 2012, 09:10:38 PM
Post by: wraithen on October 23, 2012, 05:48:00 AM
Post by: Curly on October 23, 2012, 06:06:02 AM
Do most Boykins swim that slow? he would get swept a hundred yards down stream over where I hunt. My labs swim so fast they plane. :chuckle:
I wondered the same thing. :) My lab (at least in his younger days) would be really high in the water and making quite the wake because he was going so fast. Maybe it is an old Boykin. I know that when my lab was over 11 yrs old, he started slowing down on his swimming......
Post by: Atroxus on October 23, 2012, 08:21:59 PM
Boykin is now the front-runner.
Post by: Goldeneye on October 23, 2012, 08:27:08 PM
So my wife is still digging in her heels about getting a Lab, so despite much trying it looks like they are off the table :(
Boykin is now the front-runner.
I'm curious. What does she have against labs? They are so versatile in the field and great family dogs.
Post by: Stilly bay on October 23, 2012, 09:08:18 PM
So my wife is still digging in her heels about getting a Lab, so despite much trying it looks like they are off the table :(
Boykin is now the front-runner.
:twocents: don't pigeon hole yourself or let yourself be pigeon holed into any one breed until you get to hunt behind it. you might find a boykin is exactly what you are looking for in the field or you might find it just doesn't compare to another breed you have hunted with. either way your going to be stuck behind this critter for the next decade or so, its going to make you laugh and cry - proud and embarrassed. so don't settle for anything less than exactly what you want.
IMO your doing the right thing by test driving a few breeds, don't stop on a Boykin unless you just know nothing else will do. hell test drive several dogs of the same breed just to make sure you know what your seeing. you got plenty of time. if more people took the trouble to find the right breed for them- there would be less dogs at the pound and rescue. :twocents:
Post by: Cascade_fisher on October 23, 2012, 09:31:01 PM
Post by: Atroxus on October 24, 2012, 05:53:49 AM
I'm curious. What does she have against labs? They are so versatile in the field and great family dogs.
She likes tiny dogs. Says a lab is too big and sheds to much. :(
:twocents: don't pigeon hole yourself or let yourself be pigeon holed into any one breed until you get to hunt behind it. you might find a boykin is exactly what you are looking for in the field or you might find it just doesn't compare to another breed you have hunted with. either way your going to be stuck behind this critter for the next decade or so, its going to make you laugh and cry - proud and embarrassed. so don't settle for anything less than exactly what you want.
IMO your doing the right thing by test driving a few breeds, don't stop on a Boykin unless you just know nothing else will do. hell test drive several dogs of the same breed just to make sure you know what your seeing. you got plenty of time. if more people took the trouble to find the right breed for them- there would be less dogs at the pound and rescue. :twocents:
Absolutely, I am going to try to get out and hunt over as many different dogs as I can. I want to make sure that I choose a dog that I can be happy with for the next 10+ years. Plus hunting with experienced dog owners/trainers I expect to learn a bit about hunting, training, breeds/breeders and other things that might not be covered in a couple training books.
Anyone who has dogs that fit my size/temperament requirements and would be willing to let me hunt with you for a day please shoot me a pm. I'm interested in both upland birds and waterfowl. Stilly is taking me out a second time, so I am guessing I didn't make him nervous in regards to safety around him and his dogs.
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
Post by: Goldeneye on October 24, 2012, 08:32:31 AM
I'm curious. What does she have against labs? They are so versatile in the field and great family dogs.
She likes tiny dogs. Says a lab is too big and sheds to much. :(
_______________________________________________________________-
One thing to note. The are different type of coats on Labs. Ones that have the finer short hair do not shed much at all. That could address part of the issue. As far as size. It was mentioned earlier. All labs are not big. I actually know of a female that runs at 50 pounds.
Anyways, as Stilly said don't pigeon hole yourself. If shedding is that big of a problem. A standard poodle does not shed much at all and I've seen them go retrieve for retrieve with a lab through icy water. It's uncommon enough when thought of as a hunting breed, that you may be able to find one. You would probably find one of those easier at a rescue facility that one of the other hunting breeds.
Post by: Stilly bay on October 24, 2012, 08:44:05 AM
http://www.duckhillkennels.com/dogs/canoelabs.php (http://www.duckhillkennels.com/dogs/canoelabs.php)
Goldeneye is spot on about different coats in labs. My male Chinook has a very thin coat compared to my yellow female, and his shedding isn't even noticeable especially compared to hers. I also vacuum once a week.
I'm interested in both upland birds and waterfowl. Stilly is taking me out a second time, so I am guessing I didn't make him nervous in regards to safety around him and his dogs.
:tup: :tup: :tup:
Post by: Curly on October 24, 2012, 09:01:34 AM
I'm curious. What does she have against labs? They are so versatile in the field and great family dogs.
She likes tiny dogs. Says a lab is too big and sheds to much. :(
Sounds like Atroxus needs to promise to vacuum 2-times per week if she will let him get a lab......... 8)
Post by: Atroxus on October 24, 2012, 09:22:36 AM
I'm curious. What does she have against labs? They are so versatile in the field and great family dogs.
She likes tiny dogs. Says a lab is too big and sheds to much. :(
Sounds like Atroxus needs to promise to vacuum 2-times per week if she will let him get a lab......... 8)
I tried that. I have also shown her all the pics and videos in this thread. I also tried convincing her that taking a lab from a line that tends towards smaller size and getting a female would bring the weight down pretty close to if not below the 50 pound mark, but she isn't buying it. :'(
I really don't like the look of poodles, but I am still considering them as a possibility. Standard poodles are borderline on my size/weight limit though, which is part of the reason that boykins are my current first choice. From what I read a female Boykin should be well under the 50 pound mark, even if she is at the upper end of the weight spectrum for that breed. (and they don't look like a giant cotton ball) :chuckle: If anyone has a hunting poodle I could hunt with for another point of comparison though hit me in PM so we can schedule a hunt. :tup: Like I said I am still open to other options. :tup:
Post by: Stilly bay on October 24, 2012, 09:29:39 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on October 24, 2012, 10:49:00 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on October 24, 2012, 10:53:18 AM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi463.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq357%2Fgilmore_spirits%2Fprivate%2FOhhLord.jpg&hash=ec54144e9faa9d2be1319c3de3f466af6da16521)
Post by: Curly on October 24, 2012, 10:55:07 AM
(Or maybe get a pure bread, smallish lab female puppy and tell the wife it is a labradoodle. Then after it gets larger and continues to look like a pure bread lab...........it's too late and the wife would already be attached to the lab). ;) :chuckle:
Post by: Curly on October 24, 2012, 11:26:38 AM
Post by: Curly on October 24, 2012, 11:32:17 AM
Post by: Atroxus on October 24, 2012, 11:35:08 AM
I'll just throw this idea out there, don't know about them......I'd rather have a lab, but what about a Labradoodle??? :dunno: Could that be a compromise that would work?
(Or maybe get a pure bread, smallish lab female puppy and tell the wife it is a labradoodle. Then after it gets larger and continues to look like a pure bread lab...........it's too late and the wife would already be attached to the lab). ;) :chuckle:
I did a little looking on Labradoodles and one sentence on wikipedia has me concerned. "Because the Labradoodle is a hybrid and not a breed, puppies do not have consistently predictable characteristics." I would hate to get a dog then find out it won't hunt. I don't know how hard it would be to find a labradoodle that I could verify that both parents are from good hunting lines. :dunno:
Passing a lab off as a Labradoodle is tempting, but I'm not really comfortable lying to my wife about it to get a lab. So far Boykin or maybe poodle seem like the best compromise. Poodle only if I can get a chance to hunt with one and find a breeder that has a verifiable hunting line.
Post by: Curly on October 24, 2012, 11:45:21 AM
Passing a lab off as a Labradoodle is tempting, but I'm not really comfortable lying to my wife about it to get a lab. So far Boykin or maybe poodle seem like the best compromise. Poodle only if I can get a chance to hunt with one and find a breeder that has a verifiable hunting line.
Yeah, I'd wouldn't add Labradoodle to the list either. Also, I was totally joking about lying about the pup. Just one of those funny thoughts that go thru my twisted mind sometimes........ :)
Post by: skinzner on October 24, 2012, 11:49:38 AM
http://cedarwoodgundogs.com/ (http://cedarwoodgundogs.com/)
Post by: Happy Gilmore on October 24, 2012, 12:10:07 PM
I'll just throw this idea out there, don't know about them......I'd rather have a lab, but what about a Labradoodle??? :dunno: Could that be a compromise that would work?
(Or maybe get a pure bread, smallish lab female puppy and tell the wife it is a labradoodle. Then after it gets larger and continues to look like a pure bread lab...........it's too late and the wife would already be attached to the lab). ;) :chuckle:
I did a little looking on Labradoodles and one sentence on wikipedia has me concerned. "Because the Labradoodle is a hybrid and not a breed, puppies do not have consistently predictable characteristics." I would hate to get a dog then find out it won't hunt. I don't know how hard it would be to find a labradoodle that I could verify that both parents are from good hunting lines. :dunno:
Passing a lab off as a Labradoodle is tempting, but I'm not really comfortable lying to my wife about it to get a lab. So far Boykin or maybe poodle seem like the best compromise. Poodle only if I can get a chance to hunt with one and find a breeder that has a verifiable hunting line.
You can get away with telling her it's a Labradoodle for a while...LOL...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi463.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq357%2Fgilmore_spirits%2FKaie%2520Pictures%2F9312pup2.jpg&hash=62780f2f203a285ade119e2fae1f61f84bdef0bd)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi463.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq357%2Fgilmore_spirits%2FKaie%2520Pictures%2FGabby.jpg&hash=b07e7d8fa6dc5af6f3547c357fafc582a2c566dd)
Post by: Sportfury on October 24, 2012, 01:36:52 PM
Atroxus I would suggest the GWP. Of course I am partial to that breed as that is what I own (x2). We have had labs and a GSP also, but I like the GWP the best. There temperament, their will to please, their will drive to hunt (anything and bad for cats, raccoons, and such). They can do water, they dive in the deepest brush, and are an all around great dog. They do need to be run everyday, so make sure they get their exercise.
If money is an issue then try the GWP rescue http://www.gwprescue.com/. (http://www.gwprescue.com/.) Right now they have a couple of dogs and they put you through the ringer "somewhat" to make sure that the dog is going to a good home.
I checked out that rescue site and am thinking gwp may not work for me. The site said they are not good for people who are away from home long hours. Due to my commute I leave home at 5am for work and don't get back until 5:30-6. :(
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
Atroxus I leave the house at 4:30 am and don't make it home until 4:00 pm. The pups do good, but they do have an outside kennel and each other. I just make sure when I get home that they have lots of time to run to burn off some of that energy.
I would look at Abe's post on Drahthaars. If I hadn't been in such an all fired hurry to get a new pup I would have got a Draht instead of the GWP. Some people would say that their is no difference, but the Draht does go by the german standards where the GWP doesn't have to. However, most reputable breeders of the GWP do a good breeding for the right traits. There is another member on here who has Drahts/GWP named Lee Root. He would be good to look up.
I also wanted a rescue dog at first due to price, but doing the research, learning about the breed, researching breeders, putting a down payment down, saving the money was well worth the time spent. I think you are doing the right thing going out with other people and checking out their dogs. I don't have any trips for birds planned soon, but in November I may have something going in Yakima. Maybe we could get together and you could learn about the ugly dogs. Just remember once you go ugly you don't go back (and for you wisecrackers were talking dogs not the bar :chuckle: ).
Post by: Kola16 on October 24, 2012, 02:07:02 PM
Post by: Atroxus on October 24, 2012, 02:18:16 PM
Atroxus, you are coming hunting with me on the 4th, (or is it the 3rd :dunno: :chuckle: :dunno: ). My lab is fairly small, and she sheds very little. Maybe you can take a lot of pictures of her while we are hunting or something :dunno: When she is standing, she comes to my knees. From the trailer to the ground is about 19 inches
The 4th, it's worth a shot though. I am not holding my breath for it to change her mind though. :(
Post by: runamuk on October 24, 2012, 02:49:50 PM
http://www.nsdtrc-usa.org/ (http://www.nsdtrc-usa.org/)
Post by: Atroxus on October 24, 2012, 04:18:51 PM
if it was just a duck dog I'd suggest a Toller....small like a miniature golden retriever in looks to some extent
http://www.nsdtrc-usa.org/ (http://www.nsdtrc-usa.org/)
I enjoyed pheasant hunting, so I really want a dog that can do both waterfowl and upland game. Though there is the possibility I could hate duck hunting, then I would be happy with just an upland dog. :chuckle: Like that's gonna happen. :chuckle:
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
Post by: Kola16 on October 24, 2012, 04:25:15 PM
if it was just a duck dog I'd suggest a Toller....small like a miniature golden retriever in looks to some extent
http://www.nsdtrc-usa.org/ (http://www.nsdtrc-usa.org/)
I enjoyed pheasant hunting, so I really want a dog that can do both waterfowl and upland game. Though there is the possibility I could hate duck hunting, then I would be happy with just an upland dog. :chuckle: Like that's gonna happen. :chuckle:
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
Did you eat the duck that you got on your pheasant hunt :dunno: You should search some recipes on here. Chances are.....you probably won't like the taste of duck plain :chuckle:
Post by: Atroxus on October 24, 2012, 04:36:34 PM
This weekend I am making pheasant and dumplings though. I hope that tastes better than bacon wrapped shoveler...though I can't imagine it tasting worse. :shudder:
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
Post by: Curly on October 24, 2012, 04:38:10 PM
I didn't find much difference in taste between shoveler or mallards........ :dunno:
Post by: Happy Gilmore on October 24, 2012, 04:40:17 PM
if it was just a duck dog I'd suggest a Toller....small like a miniature golden retriever in looks to some extent
http://www.nsdtrc-usa.org/ (http://www.nsdtrc-usa.org/)
Tollers job was never to retrieve. That's why they owned Chesapeakes.
Post by: Kola16 on October 24, 2012, 05:03:28 PM
I tried the duck with just some bacon wrapped around it, and now I understand why shovelers are considered undesirable. :puke: I would have had to be starving to eat it. Next duck I want to try a meat ball recipe I found.
This weekend I am making pheasant and dumplings though. I hope that tastes better than bacon wrapped shoveler...though I can't imagine it tasting worse. :shudder:
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
The joke is wrap the duck in bacon, cook it, then throw the duck out, and eat the bacon :chuckle:
It all depends on how you cook it :tup: http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,63551.msg791460.html#msg791460 (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,63551.msg791460.html#msg791460)
Wacenturion has a great recipe :drool: :drool: :drool:
So does Malardman except soak the breasts in soda water for a day first :tup:
Jerky is great too
But now I got you off topic.....back to getting your wife to love a lab :chuckle:
Post by: Stilly bay on October 24, 2012, 06:00:26 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi463.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq357%2Fgilmore_spirits%2Fprivate%2FOhhLord.jpg&hash=ec54144e9faa9d2be1319c3de3f466af6da16521)
dang I didn't realize how big boykins are. thats no little dog!
your average field springer would be a good bit smaller and more favorable to the wifey.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on October 24, 2012, 06:03:45 PM
Post by: Atroxus on October 24, 2012, 06:59:48 PM
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
Post by: lokidog on October 24, 2012, 07:54:35 PM
Now I'm starting to think my wife is just being contrary. I finally started making progress on the lab, then she went from "it's to big" to "i don't want a puppy, i want a dog that is already potty trained." to "I don't want to think about it now cause we aren't getting a dog until summer". :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
Ouch!!
Post by: Curly on October 24, 2012, 08:01:48 PM
Now I'm starting to think my wife is just being contrary. I finally started making progress on the lab, then she went from "it's to big" to "i don't want a puppy, i want a dog that is already potty trained." to "I don't want to think about it now cause we aren't getting a dog until summer". :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
Potty training is the easy part, IMO. My lab puppy I brought home when he was 8 weeks old and I crate trained him. He was potty trained real quick and only had one accident in the house. The puppy was a babe magnet; the ladies would flock to be able to pet the cute little guy. Maybe she's worried about you getting a puppy and having all the ladies fawning over him.......... :dunno: :)
Post by: lokidog on October 24, 2012, 08:08:32 PM
Now I'm starting to think my wife is just being contrary. I finally started making progress on the lab, then she went from "it's to big" to "i don't want a puppy, i want a dog that is already potty trained." to "I don't want to think about it now cause we aren't getting a dog until summer". :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
Potty training is the easy part, IMO. My lab puppy I brought home when he was 8 weeks old and I crate trained him. He was potty trained real quick and only had one accident in the house. The puppy was a babe magnet; the ladies would flock to be able to pet the cute little guy. Maybe she's worried about you getting a puppy and having all the ladies fawning over him.......... :dunno: :)
:yeah: :chuckle:
Ours potty trained in three days at 7 1/2 weeks old. The crate training is the only way to go. :tup:
Post by: ribka on October 24, 2012, 08:15:52 PM
Second the Vizsla
Mine does well on upland and ducks
http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab186/ribka123/cquail4-1.jpg (http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab186/ribka123/cquail4-1.jpg)
I have had 3 vizslas that were good at ducks and excellant for upland. I had one that busted 1/2 inch ice to retrieve geese and if they were alive she killed them quick! They have the shortest hair! I'm not recomending them as your best choice, but they have been my favorite for 40 years. I have 1 vizsla now (40 lbs wet) and 2 choc labs (mother & daughter 60 lbs). I hunt all 3 toghether. I would also recomend a Britanny although it's one of the few I haven't owned, they have a very good nose and smaller size.
Post by: ghosthunter on October 24, 2012, 08:20:58 PM
Post by: skinzner on October 24, 2012, 08:26:17 PM
Post by: Goldeneye on October 24, 2012, 08:27:07 PM
Now I'm starting to think my wife is just being contrary. I finally started making progress on the lab, then she went from "it's to big" to "i don't want a puppy, i want a dog that is already potty trained." to "I don't want to think about it now cause we aren't getting a dog until summer". :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
It's starting to sound like if your wife can't dictate things then she is just going to ignore you on the subject and hope it goes away.
Was she brought up in a city enviroment with no pets by chance? If so, I think I know why she is doing this. Fear of the unknown. You might consider babysitting an older lab when someone is out of town to show her that when they are grown up and have manners that it's actually neat to have them around.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on October 24, 2012, 10:26:13 PM
Now I'm starting to think my wife is just being contrary. I finally started making progress on the lab, then she went from "it's to big" to "i don't want a puppy, i want a dog that is already potty trained." to "I don't want to think about it now cause we aren't getting a dog until summer". :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
Sounds more like, "I'm entertaining your dreaming and you'll never get a dog" lol... :)
Post by: pens fan on October 25, 2012, 01:20:49 AM
The largest Boykin that was from any of my litters was 52#. His name is Tank and he lives in Oregon.
Most of my male pups are right at 40#. The females range from 32-however much they were overfed.
Are they tougher to train? You don't train a Boykin....you " introduce" them. They tend to get things the first time around and get bored quickly. Regimental training is a big no no for Boykins. Show them.once then let them show you.
Now, a lab will jump over a cliff for you of you tell it to. A Boykin will tell you to kiss its arse. They reason. Getting them to do a lot of the odd things requited during hunt tests (imho) they will require more work.
But in the field, they will flush and retrieve with the best.
Some people argue they are too small for duck hunting. Their mouths won't hold a goose. BS. As for being slow in the water, they are half the size of a lab, so they might take a bit longer to get out there and come back.
They don't get stuck in mud like bigger dogs. They don't knock you over when you come home. They can sit right next to you in the car without their big heads in the way. They eat less than a bigger dog. They ate easier to pull onto the boat and don't rock it. You can canoe and kayak with them without dumping you.
There are other breeds out there, don't get hung up on any one of them.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on October 25, 2012, 09:16:18 AM
That Boykin's name is Earl, Elroy is the owner. He is only 39#. I know because he's bred my bitch twice.YOu have one getting trained with Butch Higgins?
The largest Boykin that was from any of my litters was 52#. His name is Tank and he lives in Oregon.
Most of my male pups are right at 40#. The females range from 32-however much they were overfed.
Are they tougher to train? You don't train a Boykin....you " introduce" them. They tend to get things the first time around and get bored quickly. Regimental training is a big no no for Boykins. Show them.once then let them show you.
Now, a lab will jump over a cliff for you of you tell it to. A Boykin will tell you to kiss its arse. They reason. Getting them to do a lot of the odd things requited during hunt tests (imho) they will require more work.
But in the field, they will flush and retrieve with the best.
Some people argue they are too small for duck hunting. Their mouths won't hold a goose. BS. As for being slow in the water, they are half the size of a lab, so they might take a bit longer to get out there and come back.
They don't get stuck in mud like bigger dogs. They don't knock you over when you come home. They can sit right next to you in the car without their big heads in the way. They eat less than a bigger dog. They ate easier to pull onto the boat and don't rock it. You can canoe and kayak with them without dumping you.
There are other breeds out there, don't get hung up on any one of them.
Post by: pens fan on October 25, 2012, 09:32:18 AM
Post by: pens fan on October 25, 2012, 09:41:30 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on October 25, 2012, 09:54:21 AM
There's others I think get the same respect, water spaniels, poodles and the like. I don't judge others decisions, I just admire their choices.
Dunno? HRC has been cool with Boykins for a long time obviously. AKC just opened the flood gates for everything else to run. "Most" AKC folks dabble in HRC once and a while and know what dogs can work. Same is true with training with other trainers. Word on the little working Boykin went around fast when he was in training and starting to work at a high level. That happens with most dogs but, especially the "off" breeds. I shared a cabin with Elroy in BC at a training seminar for a few days couple years ago.
Post by: Atroxus on March 10, 2013, 01:45:55 PM
Post by: Goldeneye on March 10, 2013, 02:23:36 PM
Post by: Kola16 on March 11, 2013, 03:03:50 PM
:tup:
Post by: Atroxus on March 11, 2013, 03:15:52 PM
Congrats!!! Step 1 complete.....now you need to convince her to get a puppy :chuckle:
:tup:
Nah, I am gonna take what I can get and call it good. ;)