Post by: klikboom on October 29, 2012, 09:26:13 PM
Story is as follows: See deer, he circles a little takes a dump, finally comes broadside. I let one fly. I hear a good thump, he jumps and gives his leg a kick. He goes 10 yards and stops. Stays standing, hunched over and still. I slowly move into a new position, I give a quick look over the ground for my arrow but don't see it. I see some blood pooling beneath him. I'm thinking maybe it wasn't a good hit. He's quartering away, 20yards again. I know the worst angle for a bow I take the shot aiming for behind the shoulder. Hits him, he jumps 5yards and I see that he pretty much cannot walk, the arrow is sticking out of him now. I move into position again, he is still standing and I line another one up, hits him square in the shoulder he goes down hard and with a holler. The final shot was nearing dark and he was under a tree in the timber and it was real difficult to see the animal behind the fiber optic pin. I was at full draw, had to move the bow out of the way make sure i was aiming where I wanted to. Also it was raining hard.
AFter the butchering tonight here is the ballistics report:
1. Initial shot entered a little back on the rib cage, center of mass. I don't remember him particularly quartering toward me, but I guess he was or something happened as the arrow exited the front of his opposite rear thigh.
2. 2nd shot busted straight through scapula, exited the neck but ran out of energy to fully exit. Arrow remained lodged throughout deer.
3. 3rd shot square on the opposite scapula, busted through it broke a rib, broke tip off of arrow shaft on bottom of spine. I did not recover the broadhead. Must've came out with the guts??
I came back 30 minutes later with my brother it was still breathing in the same spot, had to finish it with blade. In archery if you have a follow up shot do you take it or was I a typical impatient rifle hunter? How long would you wait to track in the hard rain? Would you be worried the blood would be washed away and/or hard to follow?
He is delicious!!
Post by: Button Nubbs on October 29, 2012, 09:38:37 PM
Post by: bloodhound on October 29, 2012, 10:47:40 PM
Post by: RadSav on October 29, 2012, 11:56:52 PM
He's quartering away, 20yards again. I know the worst angle for a bow I take the shot aiming for behind the shoulder.
I came back 30 minutes later with my brother it was still breathing in the same spot, had to finish it with blade.
Not sure what you mean by "quartering away...worst angle for a bow". Arrow behind the leg toward you and into the opposite shoulder is as good as it gets in archery. Perhaps you meant quartering toward you :dunno:
Unfortunately dull and soft bladed broadheads lead to a lot of deaths that take up to 30 minutes. That's horrifying to me. Especially when sharp broadhead blades with tough edges fly just as well and are just as reasonably priced. Slick Trick, WASP, G5 Striker, Whack'em, 4 blade Muzzy, Thunderhead and a few others will fly just as well and lead to much quicker and humane kills due to superior blade material and sharpening techniques. I like the people at Trophy Taker and the blades have gotten much better since they purchased Shuttle-T, but man I wish they could get a better blade on those heads.
You did the right thing. If you are unsure of the shot. And especially if the animal hunches up after the shot (indication of gut or liver) put another one in the boiler room. When shooting dull heads the more arrows you can get into the target the better your chances of actually cutting something vital.
With a good solid well designed broadhead/blade you should watch the majority of your animals hit the dirt - dead! Even on the westside I watch 90+% of my animals go down. And that 10-% I don't see I can usually hear them hit the dirt close by. That includes elk and bear. When guiding I actually spent more time tracking bear shot with a rifle than I ever did shot with a bow. Although back then companies took pride in producing the very best blades using the very best materials they could.
Congratulations in getting your first archery buck. Well done!
PM me with your shipping address. When I get the new Savora's ready for market (around May 1) I will send you some samples.
Post by: ouchfoss on October 30, 2012, 12:16:12 AM
ill shoot till its out of sight or he hits the ground!
:yeah: That's generally what I do too. I know on a lot of whitetail shows on TV they like to give the deer hours of time to die after a shot but they don't get the rain like we do here on the westside. If its bone dry September weather that is one thing but if its raining out and I get a shot on a deer, I will keep after him. I will kinda slow down but I will be on that blood trail immediately after the shot looking hard and if I see the deer again and he is still alive, he will have another arrow his direction. There has been a few times over the years where the nice bloodtrail I found my deer on had completely vanished in maybe an hours time because of the rain while I was packing out the meat. :twocents:
Congrats on the first deer too! Heck of a lot bigger than my first archery deer. :tup:
Post by: spin05 on October 30, 2012, 12:26:52 AM
Post by: klikboom on October 30, 2012, 09:52:01 AM
Not sure what you mean by "quartering away...worst angle for a bow". Arrow behind the leg toward you and into the opposite shoulder is as good as it gets in archery. Perhaps you meant quartering toward you :dunno:
Unfortunately dull and soft bladed broadheads lead to a lot of deaths that take up to 30 minutes. That's horrifying to me. Especially when sharp broadhead blades with tough edges fly just as well and are just as reasonably priced. Slick Trick, WASP, G5 Striker, Whack'em, 4 blade Muzzy, Thunderhead and a few others will fly just as well and lead to much quicker and humane kills due to superior blade material and sharpening techniques. I like the people at Trophy Taker and the blades have gotten much better since they purchased Shuttle-T, but man I wish they could get a better blade on those heads.
You did the right thing. If you are unsure of the shot. And especially if the animal hunches up after the shot (indication of gut or liver) put another one in the boiler room. When shooting dull heads the more arrows you can get into the target the better your chances of actually cutting something vital.
With a good solid well designed broadhead/blade you should watch the majority of your animals hit the dirt - dead! Even on the westside I watch 90+% of my animals go down. And that 10-% I don't see I can usually hear them hit the dirt close by. That includes elk and bear. When guiding I actually spent more time tracking bear shot with a rifle than I ever did shot with a bow. Although back then companies took pride in producing the very best blades using the very best materials they could.
Congratulations in getting your first archery buck. Well done!
PM me with your shipping address. When I get the new Savora's ready for market (around May 1) I will send you some samples.
There is SO much great information here, thanks very very much! I'm learning this on my own, kind of trial by fire so these tips are very helpful. I'll comment on some of your points:
1. Woops, yes in my head i was thinking quartering away was the shot people said dont take with a bow, but you are right quartering toward me is the bad one (makes sense if i take a second to consider it). Of course it worked out that my initial shot was indeed a quartering toward and I was VERY lucky to have hit diaphragm and only knicked the gut bag, could've been a much uglier gutting situation.
2. Shuttle-T. Let me preface this with the only knowledge i have on broadheads is internet learned. I walked into my local proshop and asked what the nastiest cutting, toughest broadheads were. The guy pointed me to SHuttle-T's and says he's sponsored by them and kills many animals with them. So i grabbed two packs. I think you are right about not cutting real well. The bloodshot meat was not very bad from the 3 shots. All of the blades were dinged, distorted, and will need to be replaced. If I go for elk I wanted DAMAGE so I can trail the blood. I was shocked he was still breathing. -- are the Savora's your recommendation for a BH that will cut but still bust a scapula? I'll PM you my address and take you up on the Savora's. Thanks.
3. Are you saying the Shuttle T's are dull from the factory? I practiced with only 2 bh's and the others were factory sharp. Also that's great info on curling up from a gut/liver shot, once again, makes sense.
Thank you all for the comments and good to know you agree keep flinging till it's gone. I had never finished a deer with a knife before. I wasn't overly excited about, but i had expected him to be dead, put my knee on his neck grabbed the horns and slit the through. On a bigger buck I don't think I would perform that procedure.
Post by: Stick em on October 30, 2012, 11:42:21 AM
Post by: elkoholic1 on October 30, 2012, 11:43:48 AM
Post by: RadSav on October 30, 2012, 01:32:32 PM
With very few exceptions all broadheads are tough enough to go through bone. The problem is the list is quite small of broadhead blades that will stay sharp after penetrating hair, hide, chest wall and perhaps a rib or two. That's what makes a decent broadhead design a great performing broadhead.
Don't get caught up in the penetration advertising spin. 98% of it is complete crap piled on a larger piece of crap. Your local bow shop guy was right...they are one of the nastiest cutting broadheads on the market. Mainly because they are so dull and edge fragile from the factory that they rip and tear more than they cut. Down right nasty for sure.
Toughness is often misleading. Shuttle-T's are a damn tough head. No getting around that. Around the RadSav household we try to avoid shooting big game animals hiding behind cinder blocks, 3/4" plywood, old tires and 55 gallon drums. The important thing is cutting edge toughness. In that area their performance falls considerably short of those I mentioned before. Every single one of those broadheads I mentioned earlier will penetrate a deer scapula and hold together in the process. And the blades will look better than the Shuttle-T blades I'd bet. Certainly sharper without any doubt.
The lower scapula next to the ball joint on an elk is a different creature completely. Few bow/arrow setups have the energy to penetrate that regardless of broadhead design. If that is an absolute "MUST" for you then you need to be looking at two blade designs with a rounded tip and multiple layered steel preferably. But those come with their own set of performance weaknesses too. Better to just avoid the scapula facing you all together in my opinion. If you feel the need to shoot one - try to make sure it is the one on the opposite side ;)
The biggest thing to remember in broadhead design is that regardless of the conjecture and supposition surrounding the importance of a particular ferrule/tip design it is nothing more than a vehicle to carry the blades. It has an extremely small effect on penetration and even less effect on flight. As long as it allows easy replacement of the blades, holds the blades securely and the blades do not rattle while installed the ferrule has done most of what it is going to do. The blades do the killing. The blades regulate the vast majority of flight and penetration. And the quality of those blades will determine how quickly and humanely the animals expiration will be within the confines of the particular shot placement.
I didn't mean to get off the topic of you getting that nice archery kill buck. I just get carried away when talking broadhead design. I'll keep quiet about such things from here on out. Time now to celebrate success. We can talk more about the art and science of archery and bowhunting later when the topic isn't the excitement of a first archery buck.
Post by: brianmtsinc on October 30, 2012, 02:02:19 PM
Your decision to continue shooting may very well be the reason you ended up notching your tag! Good call IMO!!
Welcome to the sport. Nothing better than getting in close with your bow! Way to get it done! :tup:
Brian
Post by: klikboom on October 30, 2012, 03:40:40 PM
One thing that I enjoyed about the archery side of it was the quiet. No bang. In fact as I was walking up from the truck to go gut the deer a herd of deer came out of th woods. These were the smarter ones as it was now dark.
Post by: klikboom on October 30, 2012, 03:42:58 PM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on October 30, 2012, 04:02:26 PM
Post by: Stick em on October 30, 2012, 04:53:05 PM
Post by: RadSav on October 30, 2012, 06:12:46 PM
I really like the Muzzy 3x, they are tough and sharp. I get a good clean cut and a pass thru, if I don't hit the shoulder on the other side. I personally retire each broad head that kills an animal so I don't worry about replacing blades.
Do you know that high carbon stainless steel does still rust? It's not called "rustless" steel. It's called stainless steel. Many people make that mistake.
The Wasp reviews on cabelas aRe quite good ill have to pick up a pack. About every brand has a handful of negative reviews hat caused an animal to be lost.
It used to be Rocky Mountain that had the best stainless blade on the market. Now I do believe it is WASP. Hard time going wrong with them. Good people. Good product. I should have bought that company when I had the chance :bash:
Remember - It's a lot easier to blame the broadhead for a lost deer than to blame the shooter. Every head I mentioned and the Shuttle-T will easily take down any North American animal (excluding Walrus) when placed in the right spot. Sort of hard to blame a broadhead for a "Lost" animal. Unless you have evidence of the ferrule breaking on impact with the sweet spot ;)
Post by: Jellymon on October 31, 2012, 10:24:25 PM
Post by: klikboom on November 01, 2012, 08:04:21 AM
Post by: LeeMajors on November 01, 2012, 08:12:33 AM
http://www.dundeesportsmansclub.com/dundee%20pic/elkshotplacement.pdf (http://www.dundeesportsmansclub.com/dundee%20pic/elkshotplacement.pdf)
Post by: klikboom on November 01, 2012, 08:48:03 AM
Strange for my first shot I truly do not believe the buck to
Have been quartering toward me, rather full broadside but when I did the autopsy so to speak it was definitely a quartering toward shot. Perhaps he jerked when I shot or I was not payin close enough attention.
Post by: LeeMajors on November 01, 2012, 09:05:35 AM
Also, not sure what kind of rest you have, but with a full capture drop away like the QAD ultra or ripcord Code Red, you can have your arrow knocked and walk around with it, and skip all those steps at game time. (just don't do that in harsh terrain)
If you're set in an ambush spot, you should range your shooting lanes and figure out distances to every little bush, log, or other convenient markers, so that when an animal comes through, you won't be fumbling with the range finder.
Post by: BlacktailBowhunter on November 01, 2012, 09:49:44 AM
To answer your question, when in doubt, back out. That is to say if you are not sure of the hit and it is getting dark, you are way better off to come in the next morning. The meat will be fine. It is amazing how you can track a single animal with no blood. I have tracked a deer I thought I hit for 300 yards with not a single drop of blood. I know it was that particular deer because he puked up apples after running off and I did not hit the buck.
If you have to track with out blood. Just go super slow and look for twigs, leaves, branches that have been broken. You will find his track and be able to just follow the direction of travel.
As you can see with your initial paunch shot, the buck didn't go anywhere. Had you not seen him and just left him, you would have found him there the next morning dead as a door nail.
If you have shots after the initial shot, yes, take another. You did the right thing.
I shot a small blacktail with my longbow in 2010 and he appeared quartered away and I figured a solid hit. We tracked him 30 yards and then bumped him. We left him over night and found him the next morning 10 yards from where we bumped him. Sometimes lite arrows ricochet off of a rib and it appeared to in my bucks case. My buddy was like, "I thought he was quartered away" and I told him I thought he was, but the arrow entered like a quartering too shot and took out a lung, liver, and paunch.
The moral of the story is that if you are not sure, leave them. Also, always wait a half hour or more to track.
Post by: lokidog on November 01, 2012, 11:09:17 AM
Turns out I didn't need to shoot him again after the first as he probably would have laid down and died but I still could, so I did.
I did retire these broadheads though as they were obviously not super effective on elk sized animals (blades were an old style, 1984 or so, that had a spinning cartridge with a thick plastic center).
Post by: klikboom on November 01, 2012, 01:28:57 PM
Post by: hardkorrhunter on November 04, 2012, 06:15:27 PM
Post by: lokidog on November 04, 2012, 09:15:00 PM
Post by: klikboom on November 05, 2012, 07:56:15 AM
Post by: lokidog on November 05, 2012, 08:30:50 AM
Is there some running joke about Wasps? I've seen it in a couple threads now and I don't get it!? :dunno:
PM Bowhunter45 and tell him Wasps suck. :chuckle: He likes them, a lot!
Post by: cowlitzkiller on November 06, 2012, 12:46:24 PM
|'d start by working on the range a little more. You admitted yourself how excited you were. Concentrate on the shot, calming yourself down, and squeezing the trigger on your release.
Good luck with another broadhead if that's where you're headed, but I think you're trying to blame it on faulty equipment when the shooter is 99% of the equation.
Good hunting!