Hunting Washington Forum
Big Game Hunting => Elk Hunting => Topic started by: miah on September 05, 2008, 09:22:16 PM
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I over herd some ol timers talking about using there 243's on elk. to me, this didn 't seem very ethical but do you think they would down an elk or just wound em.
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Over the years you always here the stories of the 30-30 and the 243 taking many animals, they never tell the statistics of how many animals were wounded and lost. With the ability to get a gun that is more suited to taking an Elk there is no reason to take a 243 out into the field to shoot an elk. I am not saying you cant but why would you.
Dave
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Old timers I would say yes to killing elk with a .243.. New timers I would say no way..
Hunterman(Tony)
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yes without hesitation.....
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I guess it would depend on where they shot it. I wouldn't recomend using a .243 on anything larger than maybe a deer.
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It is all about the shot placement. I know of a guy who shot a big bull in MT with a 22-250. Not a head shot either, it only went 100 yards and dropped. Would I do this, NO! I would say for elk the larger the better.
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what does an arrow weigh? 450 grains maybe? and push it what 300fps if your lucky. and a 243 pushes a 100 grain bullet at closer to 3000 feet per second. do the math whats the kenetic energy at impact? would you say it is unethical to archery hunt? i think not. maybe im wrong......... shoot em in the hart 243 works every time
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good point caggiford but why not go big and put em down, what if you didn't get that heart shot?
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i prefer something a little larger but i also prefer not to take a beeting. i just think there's a lot of people out there that flinch when they go to big caliber guns and i think if thats the case you should shoot something smaller until you can make a clean shot(no flinch when shooting offhand and benchrest) i shoot a 7mm-08 because thats what i like, and then i don't shoot past about 200 yards...
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I had a video of this elk hunter who only used a 243 for elk.In 29 years he killed 27 bulls with that gun.He said he always made sure of his shot placement and shot the elk through the lungs. they would only run a short distance before expiring.Seems like the norm nowadays is to get the biggest gun you can find and start letting the lead fly and hopefully you hit something. Shot placement is everything. :twocents:
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Arrows are a little different, I am a bow hunter as well and the energy from an arrow vs. bullet is two completely different. A bullet proof vest will protect you from most handguns but an arrow will go through, I think its the same with a 5 gallon bucket of sand too but I am not sure. I have had deer run farther after being shot with a rifle than with a bow. No matter what you are shooting it is all shot placement.
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all I'm saying is its cheaper to spend 20bucks at the range rather than 600 on a new rifle..do what you gotta do :twocents:
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My grandpa has been using a 6mm for years on elk in Utah.
He's got the mounts and the photos to prove it is effective. Shot placement, quality bullets, and conservative distances...
Is it ideal? Not by a long shot....but effective it is! Then again, he also tells stories of shooting tree'd cougars with 22lr revolvers.
And I agree with BC Chaser 100% about arrows vs. bullets--it's a completely different ball game. Then again, I haven't taken an animal with a bullet that has a 1 1/8" diameter, either. :o
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I would not recommend or condone to using a .243 on elk due to its light bullets, but I am sure it can take the animal with the right bullet (Barnes TSX preferably), proper shot placement and allowable distance. I am thinking the distance should not exceed 120 yards, questionable though.
I personally use a 7X57 Mauser with 175 grain Hornady bullet loaded 47 grains of IMR4831 this pushes the bullet about 2500 fps. (DO NOT use load data on older Mauser rifles). This load drops elk were they stand.
Some one mentioned arrows, I have actually experimented with compound bows shooting a 400 grain arrow through a coffee can filed with sand and a 30-30 Winchester, 150 grain bullet at 40 yards. The results are: the 30-30 penetrated the can, but failed to pass through; The arrow shot out compound bow set at 60lbs actually went clean through the can.
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Arrows have great high sectional density, which is why they penetrate, along with healthy doses of momentum. Heavy objects doing moderate speeds far outpenetrate lighter faster objects. Hence my love of heavy for cal bullets.
Ive heard of and seen elk killed with a 243. Can't say I like the practice. Can't say it doesn't kill elk though. The fellow who we pasture out our mules to, him and his wife (both old timers) use this round. Before season started he went on and on about how deadly his 243 was. Long story short, both wounded and lost cow elk this season. I do not remember the load. He didnt much crow about it later.
Elk are too valuable an animal to be shot with guns of so small caliber in my opinion. Seems like some folks like to get their jollies by shooting too far or shooting rounds too small for the critter.
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You can't compare arrow/broadhead and rifle/bullet killing effectiveness. They kill in entirely different ways, archery kills through massive hemoraging and rifle through traumatic shock. Bullets destroy as they enter and tear a wound channel and behind the bullet cavitation is created which destroys vessels, tissue and organs as the bullet passes through, also shards of shattered bone from the shock do their own damage. Arrows/broadhead simply slips through and slices and only destroys tissue the blades actually come in contact with. Sorry I'm not meaning to sound like Dr. Science. So you can't really compare bullets and broadheads other than they both kill.
I feel the minimum for elk is the .308. My aunt used to shoot a .243 for elk and killed 4 or 5 elk. Then in one season she wounded and lost two bulls. It's all about shot placement but I would still rather shoot something that throws a bigger chunk of lead. :twocents:
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I think the 243 is a little to light for elk, yes you can kill them with it, but you can also wound one. I know a couple that used 243's and after shooting and losing one elk they both switched to a larger cal. I bought a 338 win for it but there are alot of other cals out there that can do it that dont kick that hard (338fed :dunno: ). :twocents:
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Elk are too valuable an animal to be shot with guns of so small caliber in my opinion. Seems like some folks like to get their jollies by shooting too far or shooting rounds too small for the critter.
I agree with MW338 on this one, I know that shot placement is it. BUT, you can't control every aspect of the shot. what about animal's awareness, level of excitement, size (i.e. big bull vs. average cow), etc. that plays into it as well. I have seen double-lunged animals drop on the spot with no broken bones and other double-lunged animals run hundreds of yards. I have shot deer in Montana with a 22-250 (legal) but I wouldn't recommend it for the inexperienced and won't do it again myself even though I can.
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It ain't fishing guys, we're not trying to give them a chance to get away.
Use plenty of gun!
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I was with a guy that shot an elk with a 30-30 @ about 25 yds, I think it was a 180 grain Remington Factory Load. The elk only when about 15 feet before colaping but the bullet was found under the skin on the far side of the elk.
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possible (under the right situation) but not ideal at all.
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I have a friend who is an ex sniper instructor he told me of a hunting trip to Montana with the good old boys and one of them tried a shot with a round nose .308 and the bullet fragged against the elks hollow hair and peeled back a huge patch of hair . with no penetration one of the other guy es saved him from his mistake and took it out with a 375 h&h . a little over kill if you ask me. but i also prefer an arrow to the bullet. :twocents:
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if a guy feels comforable with that round than by all means use it. A lot of people also say that a 270 is to small. And we all know that is not true.
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is a 243 able to kill an Elk, yup it is. BUT what would happen to me is I would see the bull of my life at about 300 yards, 7 point royal, 60 inch spread 3 inch bases drop tines,in less than a perfect position. I would take my 243 and beat it against a rock and swear to never go after Elk again without my 300 mag. Are you willing to risk that? I aint.
Carl
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i see your point but a 300 is no more deadly at 300 yards if a guy cant shoot. I am not saying that you cant shoot, but i have heard to many stories about people who shoot an animal anywhere just because they think the have big firepower. and that mostly comes from outfitter friends but still a guy has to tink about that also.
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I sat right next to a guy who wounded an elk with a 300RUM, I shot after him and bang flopped my elk with a 257, which is not much bigger. the range was 350ish and it passed through cleanly. I am confident enough to take the shot with any rifle I shoot well, including the 243. a good hit is a good hit. no bull is going to walk away frm a 243 in the boiler room. they may be tougher to trail than if you shot them with a 460 wby, but likely just as dead.
anyone who thinks any cartrige that is loaded today for big game is too weak, light, small.......yada....well they either have never done it, or tried it and did not shoot well.
how many elk have you cleaned with someone else's bullet in the lungs?
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how many elk have you cleaned with someone else's bullet in the lungs?
:chuckle:
i like that one.
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Never a bullet, but I have found broadheads.
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if the gun doesn't kick me, how do i know it kicks the elk? lol.
not that we put much faith in them,(redraw redraw redraw) but if the wdfw feels that the 24 caliber is big enough then maybe it is.
i like what mountainwalk338 said though. they are a very valuable thing to be gambling on.
if you and i are walking through the woods with a 243 and an elk walks out 20 feet in front of us, i sure as hell aren't going to stop you from putting one straight through the boiler room. of course i don't like walking around with people that are dangerous enough to miss at 20 feet lol
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possible (under the right situation) but not ideal at all.
I think that sums it up well. Hell even a 22 can kill and elk..... doesn't mean I wanna go hunting w/ 1. To me the .25 calibers w/ 120 grn bullets and up are really what I'd term the bare min for elk. The 260 and 7mm-08 would be even better as far as a cal on the light side.
That being said, I'd rather heart/lung an elk w/ a 243 than gut shoot it w/ a 338.
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Im sure this has already been said, but a 22 will kill an elk with the correct shot placement. I have personally killed two elk with a 243 back when you could hunt elk and deer at the same time. Both times where one shot kills and the animal didnt go more than 100yds. Its not my first choice as an elk rifle but it works fine. its all about your confidence level and shot placement.
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i just started the class to get my yachshine and over here(in germany) the minimum bullet for an elk is 6.5 mil. just so's ya knows. and the elk over here (aka red stag, red deer) are much smaller.
a 243 is something like 6.2 mil.
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My mother in law has killed multiple elk and even a few cow moose with her 243 win. That being said, she has the time and patience to pass up less than perfect shot opportunities. She also has my father in law at her side with a 7mag to make up for a less than perfect shot, which to this date has yet to happen. One of my cousins Grandpa's went to shooting a 243 back in the late 70's for everything after he had a shoulder surgery which made recoil very tough for him, I think when he passed that 243 was at like 28 or 29 elk, and he shot some studs with it as well. Personally, I wouldn't purposely go elk hunting with a 243, but wouldn't pass up a good shot at an elk if I had a 243 in my hands. Shot placement and confidence are key when using a caliber that is small for the purpose. It can and does regularly get done.
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Been there a time or two for my son, who shoots a .243 and has killed several bears, couple Moose, and few Caribou. All with a 243, every animal except his second Moose went down quick, but I have hit Moose with a .338 in the boiler and they stay up also and required a second round. It is all about shot placement and knowing the limitations of range.... PERIOD. If he has an opportunity this season for Elk, that is what he'll use also... Yea, I like a bigger gun myself 338-375, but he isn't accurate with any thing else. And I will add to stir the pot, most people that shoot the mag calibers have a hard time being accurate... NO- Not directed at at anyone specific, because we don't want to stir it up again... But there has been several test done at a former range I went to. Had people shoot the lighter calibers after they witnessed them shooting their big guns, they drastically improved their aim (by feet!!!!!), when they went back to their super dee duper magnums they again couldn't hit the broad side of the barn.... Recoil is killer with some folks, if they are accurate with smaller calibers, why wouldn't they use it???
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I have been with my dad when he has killed elk with his 243 with out problems and the last one was with his 300 and we followed it for a mile and half before getting it. So use what you want, but know your shoot
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I think here on the eastside with the spike only restriction the .243 is going to do better than if your looking at shooting a mature bull with a lot more meat, muscle and bone on him. The only legal elk you can shoot here are going to be some of the smallest bodies in the herd (except or the calves). I still think you have less room for error but is very doable. Just my :twocents:
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When you are using a 243 you do have to have a little more patients. I lost a bear a few years back. They just don't have the energy to punch into that front shoulder. I got impatient and took a 1/4 towards shot and it just didn't do it. But like I posted earlier I have taken a couple elk with no problems.
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It all boils down to two things, Distance & Shot Placement. Both the .30-.30 & the .243 will dispatch Deer & Elk size game very effectively and anyone who tells you differently hasnt a clue.
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Thats a bunch of bull spearit! :chuckle: 30-30 and 243 cant do the job effectively...nothing less that a 50 cal for me :P
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over here in germany your not aloud to hunt with a bow or a crosbow but you are aloud to hunt with a SPEAR!!
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Thats a bunch of bull spearit! :chuckle: 30-30 and 243 cant do the job effectively...nothing less that a 50 cal for me :P
bout time you got your arse over here ;) Looks like late October b4 I get back to the PNW....whats your schedule look like ?
