Post by: konrad on December 10, 2012, 03:59:24 PM
I have been fletching my own arrows for thirty five years. I started out with alloy shafts and feathers. I have arrows done twenty years ago that still are on so tight you will need harsh language, determination and a razor knife to get those feathers off. They were all applied using Fletchtite glue. I fooled around with carbon shafts but eventually returned to alloys. I gave up the feathers and went to the two inch Blazers in ’08.
At that time, I was still able to obtain my reliable Fletchtite glue and had virtually no problems bonding the Blazers to the aluminum. But then the same thing my wife complains about with her eye liner happened to me: They changed the formula to the “new and improved” Fletchtite Platinum.
I have been around and around with Bohnig and bless their hearts they really have tried to accommodate an old goat. They have sent me new glue and new Blazers…twice… and still I have the blasted things falling off once in a while. This last go ‘round I bought two dozen Easton XX78 Super Slam 2413s and had both of Bohnig’s adhesives (the Fletchtite Platinum and their cyno-acrylate) and new Blazers. I prepped the shafts using hot water and powdered bath scrubbing (Comet) powder as instructed in the Blazer packaging and did one dozen of one adhesive and the other dozen using the second adhesive.
This time, I thought I had success…until the weather changed. Now it’s cooled off (I practice throughout the year no matter how cold…OK, I won’t practice if it is below Zero) and I have Blazers shedding from both groups. It’s always the same in that the adhesive stays with the vanes and very little stays with the substrate. I have even tried using brake cleaner and other solvents to no avail.
I need suggestions on a good glue.
No, I take that back.
I want The Best glue.
I enjoy building new arrows but I detest repairing new arrows.
Help!
Post by: Jingles on December 10, 2012, 04:09:37 PM
Post by: Todd_ID on December 10, 2012, 04:21:36 PM
HELP RADSAV! Save us from ourselves!
Post by: sakoshooter on December 10, 2012, 05:38:39 PM
I'd check to make sure every thing is warm including the glue. Shafts, vanes, jig etc. Allow enough time for each fletch. I've had no problems with any of my arrows in any kind of weather other than when I Robin Hood them, LOL.
Post by: erk444 on December 10, 2012, 06:04:59 PM
Post by: jburkett on December 10, 2012, 07:20:46 PM
Post by: Jason on December 10, 2012, 07:39:43 PM
I also clean the shafts with acetone, if the shafts been fletched a few times before i'll hit it
with some fine sand paper to make sure all the previous glue is off the shaft.
http://www.bowhuntingstuff.com/product/1118-ARROW-MATE-GLUE/Saunders-Arrow-Mate-NPV-Arrow-Fletching-Cement.html (http://www.bowhuntingstuff.com/product/1118-ARROW-MATE-GLUE/Saunders-Arrow-Mate-NPV-Arrow-Fletching-Cement.html)
Post by: carpsniperg2 on December 10, 2012, 07:44:23 PM
A good wrap and some goat tuff or goldtip glue gets the job done for me. I also use the feather tape on my trad arrows and put spots on the front and back of the feather to keep them on.
Post by: DoubleJ on December 10, 2012, 09:14:17 PM
Get the black bottle, not the blue. $4 at wal-mart. Fletches about 2 dozen arrows plus inserts. Comes off easy with an arrow scraper and some iso. alcohol to get the residue off
Serious. Save yourself some money.
Post by: hughjorgan on December 10, 2012, 09:45:36 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gotoforms.com%2Fimages_products%2Fadhesives-loc-1363589-loctite-ultra-gel-super-46983big.jpg&hash=f8381b3de2cc82996f910c9a7af3ce7a9cd05fdb)
Get the black bottle, not the blue. $4 at wal-mart. Fletches about 2 dozen arrows plus inserts. Comes off easy with an arrow scraper and some iso. alcohol to get the residue off
Serious. Save yourself some money.
I just use the blue control gel, works great. I have also have used gorilla super glue with great success.
Had to much trouble with goat tuff and fletch tite and vanes not holding a bond.
The loctite blue control gel has worked flawless, not one vane has fallen off, easy to scrape off and refletch as well.
Post by: lokidog on December 10, 2012, 10:35:24 PM
>>>I'm not using Bohning vanes though.
Post by: elkoholic on December 11, 2012, 07:02:47 AM
Post by: sakoshooter on December 11, 2012, 07:44:18 PM
Bohning says to NOT wipe Blazers with ANYTHING because they've got a bonding agent on them that reacts with their glue.
Post by: JLS on December 11, 2012, 09:19:10 PM
Post by: RadSav on December 12, 2012, 12:55:36 AM
HELP RADSAV! Save us from ourselves!
Oh no! Called out again :o I will try not to screw this up. Fighting through a migraine but I'll do my best :chuckle:
Let me start by expressing my contempt for fletching directly to carbon shafts. And camo carbon shafts even more. That is why you will notice that the vast majority of my pictures have arrows with Blazer Wraps on them. Makes life much easier when working with carbon shafts. Just make sure to account for the effect on FOC when choosing your point weight.
There are three ways glue bonds; electrostatically, mechanically and material cross linking. When bonding directly to the shaft you will not have enough porous material to really create a mechanical bond. And without a wrap the aluminum or carbon most certainly will not cross link with your fletching. So electrostatic bonding is what we are most often looking for in a good fletch to shaft bond. Without going into a bunch of hula scientific mumbo just realize a good bond is going to be one with many positive and negative ions and very little insulators between the two. Thus the reason for choosing the right cleaning method. Especially when dealing with a carbon shaft whose components tend to have many insulating factors that further restrict the effectiveness of polar orientation/bonding.
Vinyl or rubber based glues like Fletch-Tite, Platinum and NPV stay reasonably pliable after curing. In my opinion this is an important feature when using arrows in a variety of weather conditions and temperatures. It also makes these glues far more resistant to impact fracturing than cyanoacrylates. The plasticizing element of these glues is usually MEK or Acetone giving them the ability to crosslink with most vinyl type arrow wraps and most fletching materials. For this reason I always use a high grade of MEK or Lacquer Thinner as a cleaning agent on fletching and shafts. (Most acetone available at hardware stores is not pure enough to be void of fillers and other ingredients and will leave a film. So I stay away from Acetone) If you want the absolute best cleaning agent for this type of glue get lacquer thinner from an automotive paint supplier.
When using this type of glue I always clean the base of the vane regardless of manufacturer. The primer used by a few of the manufactures out there including Bohning is really targeted for automatic fletching jigs and fast acting glues. They will actually become a barrier restricting the crosslink between glue, wraps and vanes. I wipe them with my lacquer thinner until I see some color transfer onto the blue shop towels I use for cleaning. At that point I know the primer has been completely removed and the surface has been softened and ready to optimize a crosslink between glue and vane. I don't want to use a thinner on my already soft vinyl wraps so I clean those with extra hot water and a small amount of Simple Green. All I'm trying to do here is simple degreasing and that's all.
Cyanoacrylate is basically an acrylic resin. The rapid nature of set in this glue is rather inconsistent due to it's reaction to moisture. One of the reasons an archer from the eastside might absolutely love the stuff and someone from the westside might absolutely hate the stuff. The newer gel (fumed silica) formulations are much more stable as moisture does not accelerate set nearly as fast. Acrylic is a strong material with long molecule chains that adhere well. But, while it is a strong material it is also brittle and does not handle shear well. It also does not expand and contract well making it susceptible to bonding failures when fletched in hot weather and used in late season cold weather. It also loses shear strength in cold weather. Most of the cyanoacrylate glues available in the archery industry are manufactured in the same plant and have very similar attributes. Not so is the case of Loc-Tite and Gorilla. Loc-Tite's Ultra Gel and Gorilla Super-Glue variations include an impact modifier. This modifier keeps the material much more pliable than standard cyanoacrylates. Making these two glues more resistant to expansion/contraction issues and impact failure issues. Not to the extent that traditional Fletch-Tite type glues do but much better than unmodified cyanoacrylate glues.
Acrylic and MEK/acetone do not like one another. Because of this you must be very careful when using these solvents to clean arrow shafts that are fletched using the fast set glues. A good rule to follow if cleaning shaft with MEK or Lacquer thinner is to let them dry over night before fletching with fast set glues. Now while these glues increase and decrease set times rapidly with different water vapor levels water does not breakdown the molecular chain or effect their electrochemical/electrostatic properties. So water based degreasers are often the best way to go when cleaning shafts. My preferred method is to very lightly scuff the shafts with a green Scotch Brite pad and then clean with a 1:20 mixture of Simple Green. Followed by two aggressive rinses of hot water and a wipe down with all white paper towels. I then let them dry for a few hours before I'm ready to fletch. Best vanes to use with Cyanoacrylate glues would be those with primered surfaces or factory prepped vanes such as those made by Bohning, AAE, NAP and Norway (Fusion).
My personal favorite glues:
Saunders NPV (all time favorite and used on all my "hunting" arrows)
Gorilla Impact-Tough Super-Glue (I use this glue quite often for target arrows and/or test arrows because of it's process time and simplicity to work with)
Two things to note: Bohning vanes are treated with a primer for best adhesion with cyanoacrylate glues. Which is a very nice feature and one of the things I really like about Bohning vanes. However, over time this primer begins to decay and lose it's bond with the vane. Plus there have been times when a batch of Bohning vane has not bonded well with the primer even when new. So if you have a problem with your Bohning vanes coming off in flight or with just light impact inspect the area they were adhered carefully. You can easily see if the failure was due to a loss of glue bond or a loss of the primer bond. If it is a primer bond contact Bohning and request replacements. If all arrows were fletched during that same time with the same batch of vanes strip them all and start over again with a different batch of product.
Also, neither type of fletching glue handles being in below freezing temperatures prior to application in the tube or bottle. When possible I try to order my glues during summer months. And when I forget a batch of glue in the RV or even think it may have reached a temperature below freezing I throw it out and get a new tube. After experiencing a few failures with animals standing in front of me I no longer believe it is worth the risk when these products are so reasonable in price.
Hope that is what you were looking for Todd. And sorry if my proof reading, grammar and punctuation was a little flawed. I've been seeing double for the past 15 minutes. Guess the Percocets are starting to take effect. :whoo:
Post by: DoubleJ on December 12, 2012, 06:49:04 AM
Post by: lokidog on December 12, 2012, 08:04:00 AM
Post by: PlateauNDN on December 12, 2012, 08:53:20 AM
Post by: DoubleJ on December 12, 2012, 08:57:19 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 12, 2012, 09:00:39 AM
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on December 12, 2012, 09:22:39 AM
Post by: konrad on December 12, 2012, 10:04:01 AM
1. Virtually all of my bond failures have been at the substrate. These continued failures point to inadequate prepping of the shaft(s). It is quite likely that imparting a more rough surface to the nicely finished anodizing (adding a little “tooth”) will give whatever adhesive is chosen more purchase whereby improving the odds of a better bond.
2. In every instance where one vane has been lost, when testing the remaining brethren there is always an audible “pop” when another fails. This lends credence to the idea that standard Cyno-acrylate has little or no flex to their matrix. It makes one wonder whoever thought Super Glue would be a good substitute for good ole Fletchtite.
3. The makers of Fletchtite, while trying to formulate an adhesive that was compatible with carbon substrates lost sight of the true goal of superior bond at any cost. I suspect cost considerations in compounding the “new” formulation outweighed the risks of the occasional irate Fletcher such as myself.
4. My next step will be to obtain some of the Loctite Super Glue Ultra gel, rough the substrate and wash with denatured alcohol (what Bohnig suggests).
As an aside, after seeing the repeated suggestions of using the Loctite product, I went to the Henkel Corporation web-site and used their adhesive selector feature. None of the super glue products were recommended. They suggested Loctite Stik’n Seal Extreme Conditions adhesive. Please note: There were specific types of plastics not to be used with this adhesive. One wonders what plastic compound Bohnig is using in their Blazer vane application.
Post by: DoubleJ on December 12, 2012, 11:35:28 AM
Post by: RadSav on December 12, 2012, 12:43:02 PM
4.My next step will be to obtain some of the Loctite Super Glue Ultra gel, rough the substrate and wash with denatured alcohol (what Bohnig suggests).
Be very careful when purchasing denatured alcohol. Make sure it is 94% ethanol or better. Often times cheaper stuff is mixed with low grade isopropyl alcohol or acetone fillers that will leave a film. Also some have blue or purple dye added which also leave a film.
Post by: Chesapeake on December 12, 2012, 04:25:54 PM
Just set them in the easy fletch, wipe with IPA, wipe the arrow with IPA, wait a few for the IPA to evaporate, put a bead of glue on each vane, close the jig, wait a few minutes, open the jig and remove the arrow, place a bead of glue at each vane tip, set arrow in the rack. Next arrow.....
I tried Goldtips version of super glue when I tried their arrows, but I hated how quick it set up and how it dries with the foggy white look to it. Was messy stuff.
Post by: RadSav on December 12, 2012, 07:24:42 PM
Post by: DoubleJ on December 12, 2012, 07:33:09 PM
Post by: RadSav on December 12, 2012, 08:05:31 PM
I never liked IPA. I am more of a lager or porter guy myself
Perhaps if it were 99 proof you might learn to like it :dunno: I've always been a strawberry blonde guy myself.
Post by: Jason on December 12, 2012, 08:17:29 PM
Post by: DoubleJ on December 12, 2012, 09:15:42 PM
I never liked IPA. I am more of a lager or porter guy myself
Perhaps if it were 99 proof you might learn to like it :dunno: I've always been a strawberry blonde guy myself.
Yea, 99% always seemed pretty strong to me. The strawberry blonde is something I can really get behind though :chuckle: . Wait, we're still talking about beer right? Or was it blondes? Or was it glue? I don't know where I am.
Post by: konrad on December 12, 2012, 09:20:06 PM
Post by: Chesapeake on December 15, 2012, 08:19:47 PM
Chesapeake where are you getting your 99% IPA? I've found it hard to get around our area.Bimart carries 91%. It's good for the most part. The 99% I ordered by the case from some industrial supply place. All I have now is the square plastic bottles with generic looking labels that say "swan" on them. I'll check Monday and see if I can find the order history.
Don't buy the "green" mineral spirits or maybe it's denatured alcohol. It's not like the real stuff. Just a suggestion.
Post by: hughjorgan on December 15, 2012, 08:40:12 PM
Chesapeake where are you getting your 99% IPA? I've found it hard to get around our area.Bimart carries 91%. It's good for the most part. The 99% I ordered by the case from some industrial supply place. All I have now is the square plastic bottles with generic looking labels that say "swan" on them. I'll check Monday and see if I can find the order history.
Don't buy the "green" mineral spirits or maybe it's denatured alcohol. It's not like the real stuff. Just a suggestion.
The last bottle of 91% I bought was from Walgreens. Doesn't leave any sort of residue.
Post by: konrad on December 15, 2012, 11:26:52 PM
As a correction: I re-read the instructions on the Blazer package and Bohnig suggests an acetone wash or powdered cleaners such as Comet and then a rinse with hot water. The Walmart also had acetone for $16 a gallon (cheaper than the denatured alcohol). Since I’ve tried the Comet/hot water combination and I’m now gluing with both Platinum Plus and Gorilla rubberized cyno acrylate after sanding with 150 grit and washing with alcohol, the next round will be with the Loctite Black (coming UPS next week) as suggested by kind contributors along with the sanding and washing with acetone.
Post by: RadSav on December 16, 2012, 12:05:19 AM
I found denatured alcohol at the local Walmart “suitable for marine heat sources and stoves”. I am assuming that’s pretty close to as good as it will get. There was no residue left on white paper towels when poured out and allowed to dry.
As a correction: I re-read the instructions on the Blazer package and Bohnig suggests an acetone wash or powdered cleaners such as Comet and then a rinse with hot water. The Walmart also had acetone for $16 a gallon (cheaper than the denatured alcohol). Since I’ve tried the Comet/hot water combination and I’m now gluing with both Platinum Plus and Gorilla rubberized cyno acrylate after sanding with 150 grit and washing with alcohol, the next round will be with the Loctite Black (coming UPS next week) as suggested by kind contributors along with the sanding and washing with acetone.
I can not over emphasize the need to avoid economical acetone. Almost any lacquer thinner will work better than cheap acetone. I don't know what the additive is that they put in cheap acetone, but it's bad stuff for cleaning arrows. You can see the film left behind when cleaning black X7's. And it's tough stuff to get off once you get it on there. Only acetone I've ever had consistant luck with has been McLendon Hardware's private brand. And that was more than 20 years ago. Stuff I got came in a black 5 gallon can with a generic white McLendon label on it. Not sure you will get the same stuff today but it would be worth a shot if your heart is set on acetone. A quick swipe on a glass bathroom mirror will tell you quick if there is any film being left over.
That denatured stuff for marine heat sources at WallyWorld is not too bad. I have not seen any of that stuff having the blue or purple dye, but check it out before applying.
I've tried the 91% IPA from Walgreens. We use it for all kinds of stuff around the shop here. Super cheap, doesn't give you a headache, strips grease and resin deposits off our molds quite nicely, and doesn't make me panic everytime I get it close to a $10,000.00 microscope. But I have never had any consistant luck using for cleaning arrow shafts. I think it still has too much water in it. That 99% stuff sounds like the stuff I'd want. I just can't ever seem to find it locally.
Post by: konrad on December 16, 2012, 08:52:02 AM
Another factor that I have added to my testing process is a heat lamp hung over my work area to maintain steady ambient temperature. The digital thermometer at the surface is hovering around 79 degrees Fahrenheit. It is quite possible the ambient temperature would be too low for proper curing because I run the house around 60; however, the batch of arrows that are bond failing (that generated the original post) were made up during the early summer months and ambient temps were hovering in the mid 70’s naturally. They also got about two weeks cure time on the shelf in the warmest room of the house (the utility room with washer, drier, water heater) before being pressed into service.
The combination of 150 grit, denatured alcohol, Platinum Plus or Gorilla rubberized cyno acrylate will get the destructive testing regimen later today (the yank ‘em ‘til they squeal method). Long, long ago, in a far off distant past, I worked as an engineering technician processing polyurethanes for the oil, automotive and sporting goods markets. Destructive bond testing always revealed the truth. The optimal test showed a torn polyurethane/adhesive interface and no clean metal or clean elastomer.
I have decided that if I can not get repeatable 100% bond with some prep/adhesive combination; I will go back to turkey feathers.
It is beginning to look like someone plucked a chicken and left the mess in front of my target…that had been covered in black Blazers instead of feathers.
Post by: hughjorgan on December 16, 2012, 10:30:34 AM
Post by: Chesapeake on December 16, 2012, 10:41:28 AM
I don't get the "comet" suggestions. That stuff always leaves a white powdery residue when cleaning the bathroom stuff. I would expect the same on an arrow. I'd use ammonia before I used comet.
Given the suggestion to return to feathers I'm assuming you bonding is failing at the vane and not the shaft??? All the sanding and shaft prep wont help that any.
I always wipe the vanes with IPA to remove any mold release or plasticizers that I think may be there. Of course I never considered Bohning may have applied a primer.
Maybe go get a bottle of Everclear and try that, on the vanes.
Post by: konrad on December 16, 2012, 11:40:49 AM
What kind of jig are you using, a bitzenberger or something else? One thing I do to make sure I get good contact with the blazer and glue to the shaft is holding the clamp tight to the shaft for about fifteen seconds. That way I am sure the vane and glue doesn't have any air pockets where the vane will not have glue.
Bitzenberger with helical clamp
Post by: konrad on December 16, 2012, 11:42:52 AM
You could try an auto paint store for the 99% ipa. They should have it in gallon jugs. You can just order it though. A case will last a lifetime.
I don't get the "comet" suggestions. That stuff always leaves a white powdery residue when cleaning the bathroom stuff. I would expect the same on an arrow. I'd use ammonia before I used comet.
Given the suggestion to return to feathers I'm assuming you bonding is failing at the vane and not the shaft??? All the sanding and shaft prep wont help that any.
I always wipe the vanes with IPA to remove any mold release or plasticizers that I think may be there. Of course I never considered Bohning may have applied a primer.
Maybe go get a bottle of Everclear and try that, on the vanes.
Yes, Bohnig states that a primer has been applied to the base of each Blazer.
I wonder, if I just drink the Everclear and wait 30 minutes, could I just breathe on the shafts and vanes?
Post by: RadSav on December 16, 2012, 04:49:22 PM
You could try an auto paint store for the 99% ipa. They should have it in gallon jugs. You can just order it though. A case will last a lifetime.
Thanks! But if I was going to an auto paint store I'd get their lacquer thinner. It's by far the best stuff I've used in more than 30 years. That's 10's of thousands of arrows fletched with it and no issues.
Post by: JLS on December 16, 2012, 09:36:34 PM
You could try an auto paint store for the 99% ipa. They should have it in gallon jugs. You can just order it though. A case will last a lifetime.
I don't get the "comet" suggestions. That stuff always leaves a white powdery residue when cleaning the bathroom stuff. I would expect the same on an arrow. I'd use ammonia before I used comet.
Given the suggestion to return to feathers I'm assuming you bonding is failing at the vane and not the shaft??? All the sanding and shaft prep wont help that any.
I always wipe the vanes with IPA to remove any mold release or plasticizers that I think may be there. Of course I never considered Bohning may have applied a primer.
Maybe go get a bottle of Everclear and try that, on the vanes.
Yes, Bohnig states that a primer has been applied to the base of each Blazer.
I wonder, if I just drink the Everclear and wait 30 minutes, could I just breathe on the shafts and vanes?
Might create some unforseen adhesion issues, like Blazers stuck to your lips, head, arms. Not sure Everclear and Superglue are a match made in Heaven :chuckle:
Post by: RadSav on December 16, 2012, 11:34:30 PM
Post by: Chesapeake on December 17, 2012, 11:18:37 AM
You could try an auto paint store for the 99% ipa. They should have it in gallon jugs. You can just order it though. A case will last a lifetime.
Thanks! But if I was going to an auto paint store I'd get their lacquer thinner. It's by far the best stuff I've used in more than 30 years. That's 10's of thousands of arrows fletched with it and no issues.
I shy away from lacquer thinner just cause its so variable in its blending and materials and I dont care for the toluene, zylene, or MEK. Them are nasty chemicals to breath and have in my house. Yeah, alcohol isnt good, but I feel better with it. Alcohol isnt variable like lacquer thinner and I believe its much less likely to attack the resins in my carbon arrows.
But yeah, if a guy was going for lacquer thinner, a high quality version from an auto parts store would be the one to get.
Post by: konrad on December 18, 2012, 12:37:47 PM
The first round of destructive testing results are in. The following are the conditions at time of fletching with 3, 2 inch Blazer vanes applied with the Bitzenberger Fletchmatic and left helical clamp.
I first lightly sanded the Easton XX 78 Super Slam 2413 alloy shafts with a 150 grit sanding block.
Then, using a clean white paper towel wiped the shafts down with denatured alcohol suitable for marine heating/stove applications and air dried for 30 minutes minimum prior to fletching. The alcohol left no visible residue on the paper towels when left to dry before wiping the shafts (checking for obvious residual additives). At one point, when absent-mindedly (that happens more and more these days) wiping one of the shafts, it got so clean as to begin “ringing” just like you hear when person rubs their finger along the edge of a fine crystal goblet or glass. At that point I decided that shaft was probably “clean”.
I hung a 110 volt heat lamp above my work area and measured the temperature with a digital thermometer to be a very stabile 79 degrees F.
The clamp was left in place for an average of 30 minutes for each vane and sometimes more than an hour.
I applied the Blazers using Gorilla Super Glue Impact Tough Formula and Bohnig’s Platinum Plus fletching glue.
I found the Platinum Plus much easier to work with as it has less tendency to run.
The arrows were allowed 48 hours additional curing time at an average 65 degrees F.
Then I actively tried to pull, twist and otherwise tear the vanes from the shafts.
Over all, I did achieve better results but was able to get a 100% bond on only two arrows (six vanes).
I term 100% bond when the vane must be cut from the shaft with a razor knife.
The two arrows with the 100% bond were using the Platinum Plus.
The remaining vanes were pulled or twisted off of the shafts with some effort but when they came off, the shafts were by and large free of adhesives.
There were only 2 vanes applied with the Gorilla that had a 50% effective bond.
Every other failure was complete in that the adhesive remained with the vane and little, if any, adhesive remained on the shaft.
The absence of glue on the shafts tells me I am experiencing a shaft prep issue as yet unresolved.
I am left wondering if the shaft that “rang” while cleaning was one of the shafts that had 100% bonding. If so, that level of cleanliness required about 15 to 20 strokes with the alcohol while rotating to a fresh spot on a new towel.
The next test will involve:
1. Another sanding
2. “ringing” cleanliness on each shaft with denatured alcohol
3. application using the Loctite Super Glue Ultra Gel Control, the Platinum Plus and the Gorilla glue (three shafts each)
4. using with the aforementioned temperature and clamping conditions.
After that round of tests, if there are again failures, I will substitute lacquer thinner for the alcohol.
We will see what we will see.
The search goes on.
K
Post by: Chesapeake on December 18, 2012, 02:08:42 PM
91% or 99% IPA should be on your short list of cleaners. :twocents:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 18, 2012, 02:20:06 PM
Post by: Klyne3 on December 18, 2012, 02:48:32 PM
Post by: konrad on December 18, 2012, 02:53:07 PM
Why a blended product of unknown chemical consistency (denatured alcohol)?
91% or 99% IPA should be on your short list of cleaners. :twocents:
3 quarts in the mail...
K
Post by: RadSav on December 18, 2012, 04:23:27 PM
Why a blended product of unknown chemical consistency (denatured alcohol)?
91% or 99% IPA should be on your short list of cleaners. :twocents:
3 quarts in the mail...
K
99% IPA on the list = fine! 91% would never be on my list. Denatured Alcohol is at least 90% ethanol with at least another 4% methanol to make it poisonous. Neither are a problem with cleaning. The problems arise when the addition of Mineral Naphtha is made. That's basically petroleum oil! When the ethanol and methanol concentrations are good it doesn't bother much. But leave the lid off the can too long and the alcohol begins to evaporate and the concentration of oil and water gets higher.
You won't see a film left on a white paper towel. You need to wipe a little on a glass mirror to visually see a film.
I don't understand the idea behind using sandpaper on an aluminum shaft. Beyond the need to remove a finish glaze from some graphite shafts, that often become an insulator, I don't see the need to use it on them either. You are not creating a pore that will help create a mechanical bond. You are just making grooves that will hold dirt, grime and restrict the amount of molecules making direct contact with the surface. If the adhesives we use were capable of penetrating extreme fine grooves there might be case for increased surface contact. But that is not the case here.
Wetting is an important part of any chemical bonding procedure. This is the reason the majority of your adhesives have directions about applying glue to both surfaces before bonding. Since we do not wet the shaft when fletching arrows it is important that our adhesives can easily become attracted to the positive or negative charged surface of the shaft material. Applying grooves can potentially raise some material to a point where charges of the base material are actually opposing each other making it nearly impossible for the adhesive molecule to form a proper link in the chain. Besides the fact that most glues used in archery do not have the viscosity to penetrate these grooves so the amount of contact between the shaft and the adhesive has actually been reduced meaning less wetting and a weaker bond.
When properly testing one needs to have a base sample where all things remain constant. From that point changes need to be made in incremental stages. If you add four points of change and see some improvement how will you know what process or ingredient made such an improvement possible? Perhaps one of those four principles gave marked improvement, but one of the others cancelled it out! You will never know unless you proceed in incremental stages and maintain the integrity of the base sample.
Sounds like you are having fun! Wish I had the time to play along with you :)
Post by: konrad on December 19, 2012, 10:01:53 AM
2. I wiped a generous amount of the denatured alcohol currently in my stock and have being used for testing on my patio door. There was absolutely no discernable residue left behind. (The label actually suggests a water/alcohol blend for cleaning glass.) Now I have a conspicuously clean area on my patio door and when my wife sees it…well, I’ll probably get roped into cleaning all of the windows…THANKS A LOT!
3. In every bonding experiment I have conducted in industrial applications, the manufacturers of the bonding agent required roughing of the substrate usually with sand or metallic blasting of the intended bonding surfaces followed by at least two solvent washes. The very best bonding agents required two air dried coatings and activation by heat (a time/temperature combination) prior to final assembly. In the case of these shafts, the applied camouflage (they were on sale) had small imperfections in the surface amounting to ripples at the edge of each color change. The light sanding of the application area actually smoothed the surface (to the touch) and also removed some of the decorative coating while at the same time provided a microscopic mechanical “tooth” to the finish material. I have the suspicion that were I to completely remove the decoration down to the substrate alloy, there would be no bonding issues at all but I have yet to go to that extreme.
A preliminary result from yesterday’s bonding tests:
I used the Loctite Super Glue Ultra Gel Control for the first time.
The two test shafts were prepped as outlined previously.
This adhesive was by far the easiest to work with of all the Cyno-acrylate adhesives I have ever used. Its consistency was thicker than that of styrene model glue or Fletchtite without the associated “stringing”. After application of the vanes, there was absolutely no running or sagging of the adhesive.
The shafts were allowed to cure for almost 12 hours before my curiosity got the better of me.
When I say those Blazers were “welded’ to the shafts, I am not kidding. There was no amount of twisting, peeling, prying or use of harsh language that could achieve a bond failure. It was only with the use of my razor knife that I was able to remove those vanes. Then I had to cut the remaining plastic and adhesive off of the shaft substrate.
Now that’s the bond quality I’m looking for!
The only downside to the Loctite product was the quantity of adhesive in each bottle (i.e. .14 oz or 4 grams versus .53 oz or 15 grams in the Gorilla bottle).
The Fletchtite Platinum Plus and Gorilla adhesive bonds will not be ready for testing until late tomorrow.
I’m off to nab some lacquer thinner now.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 19, 2012, 10:53:12 AM
Post by: RadSav on December 19, 2012, 04:12:58 PM
Now I have a conspicuously clean area on my patio door and when my wife sees it…well, I’ll probably get roped into cleaning all of the windows…THANKS A LOT!
That's funny :chuckle:
I agree the cyano glues that have the rubber mix have been a much improved result. They are much better in cold weather too which was my biggest gripe with the Super-Glues. I'm looking forward to hearing your comparison between the Loctite and Gorilla.
Don't forget to let the shafts sit for at least four hours after using the Lacquer thinner when fletching with cyano glues. With alcohol you can get right to it. But with the lacquer thinner you have to wait. That is unless you are using NPV or standard Platinum. In that case no waiting required.
Sure sounds like a fun product testing. Call me an "Archery Nerd" I guess. But I find this type of testing/playing much more fun than playing video games or watching reality shows.