Post by: huntnphool on December 31, 2012, 11:40:06 AM
Post by: Time Immemorial on December 31, 2012, 11:42:41 AM
Post by: actionshooter on December 31, 2012, 11:43:28 AM
Post by: huntnphool on December 31, 2012, 11:44:40 AM
Good question, I've wondered them same thing :tup:I've always wondered wht would happen if you purchased a firearm from someone and a while later that person reports it stolen, what would prevent this/CYA?
Post by: huntnphool on December 31, 2012, 11:45:47 AM
http://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/652004.pdf (http://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/652004.pdf)Thank you, is there one for a long gun?
Must this form actually be mailed in to cover yourself?
Post by: actionshooter on December 31, 2012, 11:47:52 AM
Not that I have seenhttp://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/652004.pdf (http://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/652004.pdf)Thank you, is there one for a long gun?
Post by: Ridgeratt on December 31, 2012, 11:49:10 AM
http://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/p3312-8.pdf (http://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/p3312-8.pdf)
Post by: huntnphool on December 31, 2012, 11:50:52 AM
Do you have any info/opinion on my above scenario?Not that I have seenhttp://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/652004.pdf (http://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/652004.pdf)Thank you, is there one for a long gun?
Post by: actionshooter on December 31, 2012, 11:56:34 AM
I do a "bill of sale " just like a 2nd hand vehicle from a private party. I include a drivers liscense and a CPL if they have one.Do you have any info/opinion on my above scenario?Not that I have seenhttp://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/652004.pdf (http://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/652004.pdf)Thank you, is there one for a long gun?
Make sure you include all info, specifically make, model, serial number.
Both party's to sign and a copy for each. If they won't do that--no deal.
Post by: actionshooter on December 31, 2012, 11:59:39 AM
Thats was pretty easy to prove, but the bill of sale is insurance.
Post by: MadHatter on December 31, 2012, 12:03:17 PM
The less paperwork you have later on if the ATF comes knocking the better, because you really don't need them scrutinizing all your transaction, and subpoenaing ALL of your firearm sales. The last thing I want is the ATF telling me that I crossed some magical line in the sand and that because I have sold a certain amount guns this year I am now a criminal because I am now dealing firearms without a FFL.
I do no paperwork when I sell firearms, if someone comes knocking the answer is "I sold it a few months back, if you need any other information please contact my attorney."
I know a lot of people, to include myself that will walk away from ANY sale involving a DOL form, even if it is just for the sellers records. I will sign a bill of sale, and show you my CPL. Anything beyond that and I will not complete the deal. Some guys want a copy of your DL and CPL, which I also will not do. I walked away from an amazing deal about a year ago because the guy wanted to take it to a gun store and fill out a 4473 and do a formal FFL transfer. Its not that I cannot pass a NICS check, far from it... Its because it is unnecessary and way over the top. You cannot "transfer" a firearm to someone in this state because it is not registered in the first place, so what is there to formally transfer?
Post by: huntnphool on December 31, 2012, 01:31:15 PM
Just write up a bill of sale... That seller is selling XXX serial# ZZZZZZ to YYYYY on AA/BB/CCCC... Both sign it, buyer shows seller CPL, seller hand buyer gun, buyer hands seller money and both be on your way... Anything beyond that is just silly...I hear ya but how do you cover your ass in my above scenario?
The less paperwork you have later on if the ATF comes knocking the better, because you really don't need them scrutinizing all your transaction, and subpoenaing ALL of your firearm sales. The last thing I want is the ATF telling me that I crossed some magical line in the sand and that because I have sold a certain amount guns this year I am now a criminal because I am now dealing firearms without a FFL.
I do no paperwork when I sell firearms, if someone comes knocking the answer is "I sold it a few months back, if you need any other information please contact my attorney."
I know a lot of people, to include myself that will walk away from ANY sale involving a DOL form, even if it is just for the sellers records. I will sign a bill of sale, and show you my CPL. Anything beyond that and I will not complete the deal. Some guys want a copy of your DL and CPL, which I also will not do. I walked away from an amazing deal about a year ago because the guy wanted to take it to a gun store and fill out a 4473 and do a formal FFL transfer. Its not that I cannot pass a NICS check, far from it... Its because it is unnecessary and way over the top. You cannot "transfer" a firearm to someone in this state because it is not registered in the first place, so what is there to formally transfer?
Post by: csaaphill on December 31, 2012, 01:36:16 PM
Post by: Zardoz on December 31, 2012, 02:22:30 PM
Post by: MadHatter on December 31, 2012, 02:41:29 PM
I hear ya but how do you cover your ass in my above scenario?
Cover your ass from what? You have done nothing illegal in selling a firearm to someone that you reasonably believed was allowed to posses a firearm, what they do with it from there is on them. If there is no crime, what is there to cover really? I would also have all further questions go through a lawyer, or if they wanted to arrest me I would be asking for a lawyer forthwith. But if you follow all the laws, and have not committed a crime, there really would be nothing to cover.
I guess to revise my answer it would be more along the line of "I sold that firearm a few months back to an individual that produced sufficient documentation for a reasonable person to believe that they were allowed to posses a firearm, and were of the proper age to receive said firearm. I followed all applicable laws and regulations, and committed no crime in selling the firearm to another private citizen. Any further questions will need to go though my attorney. I will be exercising my right to remain silent from here on out, and if you choose to arrest me I would like my attorney present before further questioning."
Am I sort of antagonistic? You bet. But I am not someone that submits to the "If you have nothing to hid, let me look in your trunk/car/house." I am a firm believer in not being harassed by the police if you have committed no crime. I am also someone who will refuse to provide ID to an officer that is not warranted in asking for ID. My usual answer is "If I am not suspected of committing a crime, I am not compelled by law to provide you with any identification, if you are not detaining me, am I free to go?" Three times in my life I have told an officer to pound sand when they have asked for ID.
Post by: huntnphool on December 31, 2012, 02:49:53 PM
At the risk of sounding repetetive I will try again. ;) You purchase a firearm from a private sale transaction, then down the road the person that sold you the firearm reports it stolen, for whatever reason, ie; insurance scam, revenge, whatever. How do you protect yourself from such a situation? What if you are checked years down the road and the leo tells you your firearm was reported stolen back in '20xx? How do you prove that your own the gun legally if "officially" there was never any documentation? At that point its your word against their stolen gun data, you are out your gun and $$$$ and quite possibly a trip to jail and additional attorney fees.I hear ya but how do you cover your ass in my above scenario?
Cover your ass from what? You have done nothing illegal in selling a firearm to someone that you reasonably believed was allowed to posses a firearm, what they do with it from there is on them. If there is no crime, what is there to cover really? I would also have all further questions go through a lawyer, or if they wanted to arrest me I would be asking for a lawyer forthwith. But if you follow all the laws, and have not committed a crime, there really would be nothing to cover.
I guess to revise my answer it would be more along the line of "I sold that firearm a few months back to an individual that produced sufficient documentation for a reasonable person to believe that they were allowed to posses a firearm, and were of the proper age to receive said firearm. I followed all applicable laws and regulations, and committed no crime in selling the firearm to another private citizen. Any further questions will need to go though my attorney. I will be exercising my right to remain silent from here on out, and if you choose to arrest me I would like my attorney present before further questioning."
Am I sort of antagonistic? You bet. But I am not someone that submits to the "If you have nothing to hid, let me look in your trunk/car/house." I am a firm believer in not being harassed by the police if you have committed no crime. I am also someone who will refuse to provide ID to an officer that is not warranted in asking for ID. My usual answer is "If I am not suspected of a crime, I am not compelled by law to provide you with any identification, if you are not detaining me I am free to go." Three times in my life I have told an officer to pound sand when they have asked for ID.
Post by: Ridgeratt on December 31, 2012, 02:54:24 PM
If you didn't get any paper work I guess it's your word against theirs! Aren't you an Attorney?
Post by: Jingles on December 31, 2012, 02:55:29 PM
Post by: dontgetcrabs on December 31, 2012, 02:55:40 PM
Post by: huntnphool on December 31, 2012, 02:56:04 PM
Have him give you a Signed bill of Sale, DatedNo, but I did stay at a Holliday Inn Express last night. :chuckle:
Aren't you an Attorney?
Post by: MtnMuley on December 31, 2012, 03:01:45 PM
Post by: runamuk on December 31, 2012, 03:03:03 PM
Is there a form or document to use for private gun sales that anyone knows about? Not necessarily to turn in for government use but to protect yourself.just a bill of sale...note the date serial number and sign.....then file.... :)
Post by: Austrian Hunter on December 31, 2012, 03:05:43 PM
Have him give you a Signed bill of Sale, DatedNo, but I did stay at a Holliday Inn Express last night. :chuckle:
Aren't you an Attorney?
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: brokenvet on December 31, 2012, 03:38:20 PM
Just write up a bill of sale... That seller is selling XXX serial# ZZZZZZ to YYYYY on AA/BB/CCCC... Both sign it, buyer shows seller CPL, seller hand buyer gun, buyer hands seller money and both be on your way... Anything beyond that is just silly...I hear ya but how do you cover your ass in my above scenario?
The less paperwork you have later on if the ATF comes knocking the better, because you really don't need them scrutinizing all your transaction, and subpoenaing ALL of your firearm sales. The last thing I want is the ATF telling me that I crossed some magical line in the sand and that because I have sold a certain amount guns this year I am now a criminal because I am now dealing firearms without a FFL.
I do no paperwork when I sell firearms, if someone comes knocking the answer is "I sold it a few months back, if you need any other information please contact my attorney."
I know a lot of people, to include myself that will walk away from ANY sale involving a DOL form, even if it is just for the sellers records. I will sign a bill of sale, and show you my CPL. Anything beyond that and I will not complete the deal. Some guys want a copy of your DL and CPL, which I also will not do. I walked away from an amazing deal about a year ago because the guy wanted to take it to a gun store and fill out a 4473 and do a formal FFL transfer. Its not that I cannot pass a NICS check, far from it... Its because it is unnecessary and way over the top. You cannot "transfer" a firearm to someone in this state because it is not registered in the first place, so what is there to formally transfer?
Post by: Alpine Mojo on January 01, 2013, 04:55:40 PM
As far as I'm concerned, selling personal property is still legal and nothing to get worked up about. I am not an attorney. Educate yourself, take responsibility, and make an informed decision as your mileage may vary.
Post by: Wazukie on January 01, 2013, 05:02:59 PM
Post by: Kc_Kracker on January 01, 2013, 05:06:17 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 01, 2013, 05:12:21 PM
I sold a 9mm pistol about 6 or 8 years ago. I had originally bought it new sometime in the mid 90's. When I sold the gun I drew up a generic bill of sale that we both signed, and I never reported the sale to anyone. Fast forward to summer 2011, when the King County police show up at my house and want to talk. Said they had possession of the gun and it had been used in a robbery. When I told him that I had sold it some years ago he asked if I remembered who I sold it to. I told him that I didn't remember that far back. He said OK thanks, and that was the end of that. The policeman never asked if I had proof of the sale and I never felt the need to get defensive or talk about calling an attorney. The cop was very polite the whole time. I thanked him for catching the bad guys and he wished me a good night and was on his way. To this day I have never received another visit or call from the police.
As far as I'm concerned, selling personal property is still legal and nothing to get worked up about. I am not an attorney. Educate yourself, take responsibility, and make an informed decision as your mileage may vary.
The last firearm I sold, as it turned out, was to an ATF agent. He took my name and DL# and I got his, that was it, no signature no other information exchanged. Not sure I even have his name anymore. :dunno:Thanks guys, but again I'm talking about purchasing one, not selling one.
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on January 01, 2013, 05:18:43 PM
Post by: ghosthunter on January 01, 2013, 05:19:30 PM
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on January 01, 2013, 06:09:02 PM
Not worth it in my opinion.
Or just buy and don't worry about it, chances are there won't be any problems. No need to make it complicated.
Post by: 762Armo on January 04, 2013, 11:12:57 AM
[/quote]
Its the same process for buying or selling. If you're buying you still get a bill of sale and all the info.
Post by: CP on January 04, 2013, 11:21:21 AM
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on January 04, 2013, 11:22:28 AM
Thanks guys, but again I'm talking about purchasing one, not selling one.
Its the same process for buying or selling. If you're buying you still get a bill of sale and all the info.
[/quote]
:yeah: Really no need to make it any more complicated than that.