Post by: billythekidrock on December 31, 2012, 12:04:08 PM
We saw a herd of 20 or so with at least 3 limping cows near the 550.
We watched a cow that was reluctant to walk and you could clearly see her hipbones and spine on the 516.
This nasty looking hoof belonged to a bull killed (and left to rot) during an antlerless hunt on the 500.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hunt101.com%2Fdata%2F500%2Fmedium%2FwebIMG_01841.jpg&hash=0d1c8e89d6663310f2649334f0a0567d986e5253)
Near the 560.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hunt101.com%2Fdata%2F500%2Fmedium%2FwebIMG_2790.jpg&hash=4e5f86cff2418a62b617d8331781ee34f0b0cfc3)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hunt101.com%2Fdata%2F500%2Fmedium%2FwebIMG_2792.jpg&hash=b861b7d13d4726ce7c27373c7742a5cac6803c1c)
This set of tracks was off the 2420.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hunt101.com%2Fdata%2F500%2Fmedium%2FwebIMG_0193.jpg&hash=c0f491d07c095ec360e11f6b2e570170364858b7)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hunt101.com%2Fdata%2F500%2Fmedium%2FwebIMG_0195.jpg&hash=813c8618b998e030f603ffa24d94bbc82c46b119)
Near the 4500.
Back
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hunt101.com%2Fdata%2F500%2Fmedium%2FwebIMG_0238.jpg&hash=624fce07ff2dc5b92b7389298b4df596dab0de6b)
Front
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hunt101.com%2Fdata%2F500%2Fmedium%2FwebIMG_0241.jpg&hash=4e708233bcf64778edbb62bd21e9439f9fb129b8)
Post by: mrmoskillz on December 31, 2012, 12:08:19 PM
Post by: Curly on December 31, 2012, 12:12:49 PM
Sad! You did that guy a favore by taking him. I hope someone figures this out.
I don't think billythekidrock shot that bull.........
Sounds like the bull was poached by someone.
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 31, 2012, 12:21:32 PM
Sad! You did that guy a favore by taking him. I hope someone figures this out.
I don't think billythekidrock shot that bull.........
Sounds like the bull was poached by someone.
:yeah: he said it was 'left to rot'.
Hopefully all those thousand pound elk survive the hoof rot.
Post by: mrmoskillz on December 31, 2012, 12:34:10 PM
Post by: raydog on December 31, 2012, 02:29:52 PM
Post by: Michelle_Nelson on December 31, 2012, 02:35:22 PM
Sad! You did that guy a favore by taking him. I hope someone figures this out.
I don't think billythekidrock shot that bull.........
Sounds like the bull was poached by someone.
BTKR didn't kill it. They found it.
Maybe someone made the choice to just end the bulls suffering? Poaching or a Moral Choice? Bull would have probably died slow with gaingreen. :dunno:
Post by: Screaminreelz on December 31, 2012, 03:04:57 PM
Post by: wackum on December 31, 2012, 03:53:35 PM
Post by: FSTaxidermy on December 31, 2012, 04:28:38 PM
Post by: MeatDown on December 31, 2012, 04:28:59 PM
I know this might make a lot of people unhappy, but.. years ago before all these things started afflicting our animals (Hair loss deer, Hoof rot, etc), I told a friend that works for Weyer. Co... that it CAN'T be good for the animals that eat "leafy" foods for them to be dumping ton's of "agent orange" like products on all those clear cuts.. because the animals don't know that they shouldn't eat that shiat..!
And what do you know now years later, we are having all kinds of these things pop up... and of course it "Can't" be that... but several of my family and friends have paid the price for having "defoliant" dumped on them... and they didn't eat it...!
So, if it can defoliant can kill and cancer us.. what do you think it can do to animals that are eating it?
Just wondering
Post by: Tman on December 31, 2012, 04:45:13 PM
Post by: buckhorn2 on December 31, 2012, 04:48:49 PM
Post by: scottfrick on December 31, 2012, 05:24:19 PM
Post by: Dan-o on December 31, 2012, 05:40:01 PM
Sounds terrible.
Post by: ICEMAN on December 31, 2012, 08:17:25 PM
Post by: bobcat on December 31, 2012, 09:09:29 PM
I'm guessing that's just the beginning stage of hoof rot though, by next year I'd bet she would have been a lot worse off.
The last two pictures in BTKR's original post are the hooves from this elk. She otherwise appeared to be healthy.
Post by: billythekidrock on December 31, 2012, 09:25:26 PM
My Winston cow from yesterday. The hooves didn't really look like it was hoof rot, they were just overgrown.
I'm guessing that's just the beginning stage of hoof rot though, by next year I'd bet she would have been a lot worse off.
The last two pictures in BTKR's original post are the hooves from this elk. She otherwise appeared to be healthy.
Definitely had hoof rot. I didn't take pics of the bottom of the hooves, but one of the fronts was starting to rot.
This PDF shows the various stages of hoof rot in elk.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01124/wdfw01124.pdf (http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01124/wdfw01124.pdf)
Post by: carpsniperg2 on December 31, 2012, 09:30:48 PM
Congrats bob!
Post by: billythekidrock on December 31, 2012, 09:37:19 PM
Post by: kalamasasquatch on January 01, 2013, 10:10:17 AM
Post by: wackum on January 01, 2013, 11:19:50 AM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on January 01, 2013, 10:07:12 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 03, 2013, 11:45:51 AM
Post by: Jerome on January 03, 2013, 12:54:59 PM
Post by: buglebuster on January 03, 2013, 01:35:09 PM
Post by: skywalker253 on January 03, 2013, 04:21:45 PM
Post by: WSU on January 03, 2013, 04:30:53 PM
Post by: Bob33 on January 03, 2013, 04:38:30 PM
PS - congratulations Bob. Sun and a dead elk: a rare sight in Washington!
Post by: billythekidrock on January 03, 2013, 05:31:00 PM
I've attached an article from Bugle on the subject. Hopefully you can read it.
PS - congratulations Bob. Sun and a dead elk: a rare sight in Washington!
We were also able to drag it downhill and load it in the truck whole!
Just minutes before we spotted them.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hunt101.com%2Fdata%2F500%2Fmedium%2FwebIMG_0198.jpg&hash=05c88747bf1885534e1bf929c2fe12094c0d09d9)
About a 70 yard drag to the truck.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hunt101.com%2Fdata%2F500%2Fmedium%2FwebIMG_0233.jpg&hash=4ae6efd4d15b97955e3fa24b33247b752590bcde)
Post by: Goshawk on January 05, 2013, 09:07:43 AM
I know this is blasphemy, but a small wolf pack might be the answer to removing the infected animals before they spread over to the healthy ones.
Post by: jumpin on January 09, 2013, 12:18:05 PM
Post by: bbarnes on January 09, 2013, 09:14:15 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 09, 2013, 09:16:00 PM
Post by: Mudman on January 09, 2013, 09:31:32 PM
They're not livestock, there is no way to treat them. What do you expect the WDFW to do?I expect them to try!!! How about trapping a live animal for study? These fools dont even know which of the forty types of rot they are dealing with! How can they treat it if they dont have a diagnosis?
Post by: bbarnes on January 09, 2013, 09:37:00 PM
Post by: JLS on January 09, 2013, 09:41:45 PM
Has anyone read the latest article in BUGLE magizine about hoof rot in our state.We are in a epidemic state here with nothing being done.My concern is are these elk OK to eat.THEY HAVE TRIED TO KEEP THIS UNDER WRAPS TO KEEP SELLING TAGS.My question is this if these were private live stock you would be thrown in jail for animal neglect.I say its time for a class action law suit against the WDFW for animal cruelty and wasting of big game animals.Please chime in
Yes, they kept it under wraps by putting it on their web page :rolleyes:
Post by: Bob33 on January 09, 2013, 09:44:27 PM
There not telling anyone how wide spread the problem is or whats causing it.They have said it affects 30% to 90% of some herds. Is it more widespread than that?
They have not said what causes it because they don't know yet.
Post by: JLS on January 09, 2013, 09:45:03 PM
Heres what they should have done after they were notified of the problem they should have eliminated these animals.As its is now this hoof root can live in the ground for up to 9 months.There not telling anyone how wide spread the problem is or whats causing it.
Maybe you should read Dr. Mansfield's study on the hoof rot, I think it does a rather good job of discussing the potential causes for it. The article even quantifies WDFW's estimates of the population that is affected by it. Pretty covert, huh?
Post by: jumpin on January 10, 2013, 08:00:36 AM
They're not livestock, there is no way to treat them. What do you expect the WDFW to do?
Approach local farmers and land owners, Use some of the MONEY we all donate to the game department, rocky mountain elk foundation, cabala's - whatever it takes!
Set up feeding stations, Just Build em! The elk will come. (have you ever been to Watt or Robinson Canyons near Thorp.)
Treat the food and the surrounding areas and ground with the proper medicine.
Remove the elk from the herds that are suffering or to far gone. (They will be the first ones to come for free food)
You can bet that there would be plenty of people to donate there Time, Feed, Money and efforts to save our best and most popular hunting opportunity.
PLEASE KEEP THIS THREAD AT THE TOP !! KEEP POSTING
Post by: Mudman on January 10, 2013, 10:00:13 AM
Post by: Bob33 on January 10, 2013, 10:07:57 AM
No offense but you all are missing the point! THEY have done NOTHING to figure out which disease the elk have! Not ONE single study of a live animal! They dont care and are not going to handle this right or they would have done it already. RMEF offered and tried to help. It seems like they snubbed the effort, dunno what happened with this effort. You talk about how to treat it but we have to know what kind before we treat it. The only reason I can think is they already know and wont let public know for some reason. Maybe its untreatable? Our elk are in trouble and that is why I believe they are allowing the wolves to be established at St Helens. :twocents:Mudman: do you not read publications by WDFW and RMEF that contradict your statements, or do you simply believe they are all lies?
Post by: bobcat on January 10, 2013, 10:10:40 AM
Post by: Bob33 on January 10, 2013, 10:15:12 AM
For you, Mudman: http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01443/ (http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01443/)...and http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01124/wdfw01124.pdf (http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01124/wdfw01124.pdf)
etc.
Furthermore, I'll put my money on the line. Let's make a bet: I will email RMEF and ask them if they have provided WDFW with any funding to study hoof rot. I will cc you and ask that you be included on RMEF's reply.
If they respond that they have, you owe me $100. If they respond that they have not provided RMEF with any funding to study hoof rot, I will pay you $100. Are you up for it?
Post by: Mudman on January 10, 2013, 11:11:13 AM
Post by: Bob33 on January 10, 2013, 11:14:07 AM
Bob33 can you tell me if you were in charge you would have figured this out?Honestly, I don' t know but I doubt it. I believe a reasonable effort is being put forth. If WDFW had unlimited resources perhaps the answer would be known by now. They don't.
Since you don't want to wager, at least contact RMEF and get the information from them. They have provided WDFW with funding to study hoof rot.
Post by: jumpin on January 10, 2013, 11:23:31 AM
No offense but you all are missing the point! THEY have done NOTHING to figure out which disease the elk have! Not ONE single study of a live animal! They dont care and are not going to handle this right or they would have done it already. RMEF offered and tried to help. It seems like they snubbed the effort, dunno what happened with this effort. You talk about how to treat it but we have to know what kind before we treat it. The only reason I can think is they already know and wont let public know for some reason. Maybe its untreatable? Our elk are in trouble and that is why I believe they are allowing the wolves to be established at St Helens. :twocents:Mudman: do you not read publications by WDFW and RMEF that contradict your statements, or do you simply believe they are all lies?
I agree with Bob33 about the wolves (wilipa hills included) I've been saying that all along.
Post by: Mudman on January 10, 2013, 11:57:41 AM
Post by: Bob33 on January 10, 2013, 12:01:13 PM
If I was to have taken your wager you would have lost. If you read this months issue of Bugle it states that RMEF has offered financial assistance to help fund a symposium gathering the best experts or intensive sampling and research. Now this says offered, implying they have not accepted the help. Ask yourself why would they not accept the help? Something smells rotten and its not just the elk.Your implication may not be correct. ;)
Go ahead and accept my wager. I give you my word I will honor it.
Post by: bobcat on January 10, 2013, 12:02:54 PM
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on January 10, 2013, 12:03:54 PM
Post by: Mudman on January 10, 2013, 12:23:46 PM
Mudman, are you a wildlife biologist?:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: Not at all. I just have a hard time accepting this state really cares about this issue the way we do. Its been ten years now. No excuses will satisfy me. Only an answer. Like I said before RMEF will be responsible for the solution not our state gov.
Post by: Mudman on January 10, 2013, 12:25:06 PM
I miss-understand you wager? I thought you stated RMEF was not offering monies?If I was to have taken your wager you would have lost. If you read this months issue of Bugle it states that RMEF has offered financial assistance to help fund a symposium gathering the best experts or intensive sampling and research. Now this says offered, implying they have not accepted the help. Ask yourself why would they not accept the help? Something smells rotten and its not just the elk.Your implication may not be correct. ;)
Go ahead and accept my wager. I give you my word I will honor it.
Post by: headshot5 on January 10, 2013, 12:27:34 PM
Quote
Mudman, are you a wildlife biologist?
This is the internet. Anybody can be whatever they want right.
Just like you are a feline with a short tail as is accurately described by your profile name. :tup:
I do doubt there has been much in the way of live group studies on affected elk, and it is very possible the WDFW accepted money from the RMEF, they had to get office Christmas presents just a week or two ago, and fund the Christmas party. Oh wait funds do not get re-allocated my bad.
Modify: Please note I am joking. Carry on.
Post by: Mudman on January 10, 2013, 12:32:10 PM
Post by: Bob33 on January 10, 2013, 12:34:03 PM
If you're serious about understanding what is and is not going on with RMEF and WDFW I suggest you contact RMEF directly. If you don't, then I think it's a fair assumption that you're less concerned about the facts of this than you are about some other motivation.I miss-understand you wager? I thought you stated RMEF was not offering monies?If I was to have taken your wager you would have lost. If you read this months issue of Bugle it states that RMEF has offered financial assistance to help fund a symposium gathering the best experts or intensive sampling and research. Now this says offered, implying they have not accepted the help. Ask yourself why would they not accept the help? Something smells rotten and its not just the elk.Your implication may not be correct. ;)
Go ahead and accept my wager. I give you my word I will honor it.
Post by: Mudman on January 10, 2013, 12:45:59 PM
Post by: Curly on January 10, 2013, 12:48:51 PM
Hoof Rot Elk Herd (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibXoI9JM23I#ws)
Post by: headshot5 on January 10, 2013, 12:54:11 PM
Quote
No offense but you all are missing the point! THEY have done NOTHING to figure out which disease the elk have! Not ONE single study of a live animal! They don't care and are not going to handle this right or they would have done it already. RMEF offered and tried to help. It seems like they snubbed the effort, dunno what happened with this effort. You talk about how to treat it but we have to know what kind before we treat it. The only reason I can think is they already know and wont let public know for some reason. Maybe its untreatable? Our elk are in trouble and that is why I believe they are allowing the wolves to be established at St Helens.
I actually for the most part agree with the above statement. They are only studying it now after it has become so widespread that it is starting to affect there income. People are demanding new tags because the cannot eat the elk they get.
In all reality if they were managing our resources correctly this would have been looked into 10 years ago when it was first recognized. They have had over 10 years to determine what is causing this or at least to research it a little bit.
In all reality they passed on researching (for the last 10 years) hoping it hoping it was less contagious than it is (My opinion).
Of course they are making an effort now to prove they are a competent/relevant agency to manage resources because they are getting a lot of bad press.
Post by: Mudman on January 10, 2013, 12:54:35 PM
Post by: Curly on January 10, 2013, 01:36:13 PM
Post by: Bob33 on January 10, 2013, 01:40:55 PM
Post by: Mudman on January 10, 2013, 01:49:51 PM
Post by: Bob33 on January 10, 2013, 01:56:14 PM
I hope this almost over.On that we are in total agreement. :tup:
Post by: Royal47 on January 10, 2013, 02:00:25 PM
Post by: headshot5 on January 10, 2013, 02:05:18 PM
Quote
Wow...that video pretty much sums up the problem! Sad to see...maybe 2 possible shooters in the whole herd!
You mean eaters.
Post by: Bob33 on January 10, 2013, 02:10:20 PM
http://wdfw.wa.gov/commission/ (http://wdfw.wa.gov/commission/)
Post by: Mudman on January 10, 2013, 02:35:13 PM
Well Bob I did that. I am not allowed to copy the email sent to me from RMEF based on confidential law. You are wrong. They tried to fund and set up a workshop with experts in June. WDFW cancelled it. RMEF is in constant contact with WDFW and Tom is meeting Jerry next week again. They have been trying to help since 2009. He states if it is bacterial little can be done except slaughter based on results from livestock with antibiotics.Bob33 can you tell me if you were in charge you would have figured this out?Honestly, I don' t know but I doubt it. I believe a reasonable effort is being put forth. If WDFW had unlimited resources perhaps the answer would be known by now. They don't.
Since you don't want to wager, at least contact RMEF and get the information from them. They have provided WDFW with funding to study hoof rot.
Post by: Bob33 on January 10, 2013, 02:38:08 PM
RMEF sent you something that you can't disclose? What confidential law prohibits that? Why would they disclose it to you but not allow it to be disclosed to others?Well Bob I did that. I am not allowed to copy the email sent to me from RMEF based on confidential law. You are wrong. They tried to fund and set up a workshop with experts in June. WDFW cancelled it. RMEF is in constant contact with WDFW and Tom is meeting Jerry next week again. They have been trying to help since 2009. He states if it is bacterial little can be done except slaughter based on results from livestock with antibiotics.Bob33 can you tell me if you were in charge you would have figured this out?Honestly, I don' t know but I doubt it. I believe a reasonable effort is being put forth. If WDFW had unlimited resources perhaps the answer would be known by now. They don't.
Since you don't want to wager, at least contact RMEF and get the information from them. They have provided WDFW with funding to study hoof rot.
Your information differs from the information I have, so someone is not telling the truth.
Post by: Mudman on January 10, 2013, 02:46:13 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on January 10, 2013, 02:53:15 PM
Post by: Mudman on January 10, 2013, 03:15:00 PM
RE: Hoof rot in Wa.
Inbox
x
Tom Toman <TOM@rmef.org>
2:02 PM (1 hour ago)
to me
Thanks for your note! We have been tracking hoof rot since I first became aware of it in elk in Washington in 2009. It is one of the most frustrating situations as there are more than 40 types of hoof rot and the causal agent has not been identified. The first part of the frustration is that we don't know why it got so much worse at about that time since it was found infrequently prior to that but has been known for some time. The second part of the frustration is there is apparently little if nothing that can be done about it. In cattle, antibiotics are only partially successful while test and slaughter is about the only effective. I have been in regular communication with WA DFW since that time and this past spring, they decided that they wanted to host a workshop for their biologists and invite two or three of the world's foremost experts to come to the workshop to discuss and train and use the opportunity to come up with a game plan to get a better handle. One of the experts is in Australia and two others are teaching at Colorado State University. We were pretty excited about the possibilities of this event. RMEF pledged $10,000 on June 25, 2012 to help with the workshop. It was originally scheduled for later in 2012. I followed up with Jerry Nelson during the fall and he advised that they had discovered some folks with a great deal of expertise at Washington State University who would also collaborate with other experts around the world. The workshop was put on hold until they had a chance to get those folks together to determine a good course of action.
While I was disappointed the workshop was cancelled, I am pleased that they have some expertise from outside their agency helping them with this challenge. I have a meeting with Jerry Nelson and Dave Brittell next week in Selah to look at new projects to be funded in WA. I will once again broach the subject of progress and hope to have something to report when I return. I will email you with any info I gather. Thanks for your concern!
Best regards!
Tom Toman | Director of Conservation
Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation
406-523-3443 phone | 406-370-6443 cell
tom@rmef.org | www.rmef.org (http://www.rmef.org)
Post by: Bob33 on January 10, 2013, 03:17:17 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on January 10, 2013, 03:28:41 PM
Post by: Mudman on January 10, 2013, 03:54:33 PM
Post by: youngbull on January 10, 2013, 04:36:46 PM