Post by: SeaRun1 on January 03, 2013, 07:17:08 PM
So I sold some items recently and am going to finally get myself an over/under shotgun. I am thinking 20 gauge is my gauge of choice.
So I am looking at these guns. If you could provide some feedback it would be very much appreciated.
Low end
CZ Redhead Deluxe
Franchi Instinct SL
Higher end
Browning 625 Field
Beretta 686 silver pigeon
Beretta Onyx
This gun will be a hunting gun with the occasional practice on five stand and trap. I do not need it to be my range gun. I am leaning towards 26" barrels.
If you have any of these please advise or any advice on over/unders in general will be appreciated.
SR1
Post by: singleshot12 on January 03, 2013, 07:25:39 PM
Hopefully Stilly bay will chime in and give you his professional input on the o/u :tup:
Post by: CP on January 03, 2013, 07:27:53 PM
Post by: GEARHEAD on January 03, 2013, 07:38:35 PM
Post by: Heredoggydoggy on January 03, 2013, 08:06:10 PM
Post by: wadu1 on January 03, 2013, 08:28:48 PM
:twocents:
Post by: Bofire on January 03, 2013, 08:58:12 PM
Carl
Post by: Heredoggydoggy on January 03, 2013, 09:14:12 PM
:) :) I prefer over. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Carl
:rolleyes: Not when you are as lazy as I am! :chuckle: :P :P ;)
Post by: mountainman on January 03, 2013, 10:01:05 PM
Post by: SeaRun1 on January 04, 2013, 01:28:48 PM
I really liked the Franchi that I had my hands on yesterday. I like the Redhead as well but it is a pound more then the same size Franchi.
Am I missing out on something by not getting a Beretta or Browning? I value reliability most of all in a gun and want something that will last.
Thanks again for the replies.
SR1
Post by: thinkingman on January 04, 2013, 01:38:03 PM
I figured out that the Browning Citori came to my shoulder/eye more naturally than Beretta.
I got a 20 Citori White Lightning earlier this year and it has become like an extension.
I handled the Beretta and it didn't fit the same, despite same length of pull.
The Beretta is lighter, by a fair margin.
Same for the Franchi Instinct....the one with the case-colored receiver? Beautiful.
CZ was never really in the running....the ones I looked at in the shop didn't pass muster re details, fitting.
Browning and Beretta are definitely going to lead the reliability race.
And resale, if that matters to you.
Post by: thinkingman on January 04, 2013, 01:38:58 PM
All noted are good field guns; you need to find the one that fits best. Fit is 90%+ of a shotgun and is a must you can spend $8K on a F3 Blazer and if it does not fit you are not going to hit targets.Best advice so far
:twocents:
Post by: uplandhunter870 on January 04, 2013, 01:51:36 PM
All noted are good field guns; you need to find the one that fits best. Fit is 90%+ of a shotgun and is a must you can spend $8K on a F3 Blazer and if it does not fit you are not going to hit targets.Best advice so far
:twocents:
:yeah: x2
only other advice id throw out there is once you find "the one" dont skimp out on it cause it may be a bit pricey. save your pennies and buy a lifetime gun, life's to short to shoot ugly shotguns :chuckle:
Post by: singleshot12 on January 04, 2013, 01:54:58 PM
Am I missing out on something by not getting a Beretta or Browning?
SR1
You are missing out on that prestigious feeling and that's it :chuckle: If you have the extra doe to blow then I say go ahead. But if you choose the high end gun I have a feeling you'll be so afraid to scratch it or get it muddy you won't take it hunting.
Internally the CZ 's with the mechanical double trigger systems are equivalent to any Beretta or Browning :twocents:
Post by: SeaRun1 on January 04, 2013, 02:30:48 PM
SR1
Post by: singleshot12 on January 04, 2013, 02:58:01 PM
With all things you get what you pay for.
But with some things you pay alot extra just for the name :twocents:
Post by: AWS on January 04, 2013, 03:01:22 PM
Post by: C-Money on January 04, 2013, 03:06:00 PM
Post by: uplandhunter870 on January 04, 2013, 03:19:29 PM
Ahhh...just get a Perazzi and have fun! :chuckle:
thats about all them p guns are good for haha 8)
back to searun's question i think that the return on investment is going to lie in does the gun fit well so you can shoot it worth a darn and is the fit and finish worth the price tag. also resale would be a factor to consider if you think you may want to sell it at some point, as we all know brand names carry reputations and a beretta or browning may command a higher resale than a CZ just cause of what different people associate with each name. although beretta is proud of their stuff and think that it's worth more even though a comparable citori may have the same fit and finish for a few hundred less
Post by: Wa hunter on January 04, 2013, 03:53:08 PM
I have a Beretta o/u 20 gauge I would part with P.M. if you are intrested.
Post by: SeaRun1 on January 04, 2013, 05:57:11 PM
I sent you a pm. Lets talk.
SR1
Post by: thinkingman on January 04, 2013, 08:19:12 PM
I guess I am looking for that point where you no longer see return on investment. With all things you get what you pay for. So I am looking for that point where I get a nice looking and hard working gun.Look at Miroku.
SR1
They produce Citoris, Win 101's...some others that don't come to mind right now.
Post by: jackelope on January 04, 2013, 08:38:43 PM
I think a lot of what you pay for in a Browning or Beretta over a CZ is long term durability too. By that I mean it will hold up and lock up tight after 10k rounds. Something you don't necessarily need in a field gun. A much higher commodity in a sporting gun. You can drop some huge money in a sporting gun.
Post by: RadSav on January 04, 2013, 08:55:56 PM
I always wanted a Citori from the time I was old enough to hold one. I've now owned four of them and not a single one shot where I wanted out of the box. I bent barrels and hit the beautiful stocks with a wood rasp and bondo. They all ended up shooting great for me, but never again would they have that classic Citori look/finish. My first Beretta Silver Pigeon was such a nice surprise when it shot where I was looking right out of the box. Sports a few battle wounds, but for the most part it looks like the beautiful piece of art it was when I bought it. I've now owned three different Beretta O/Unders and they have all fit me without modification.
I could have saved myself a lot of grief over the years if I had just been open to finding the right fit instead of being sold on that one particular brand.
Post by: jackelope on January 04, 2013, 08:57:54 PM
:dunno:
Post by: thinkingman on January 04, 2013, 09:23:35 PM
Miroku built for Charles Daly too.That was it.
Post by: RadSav on January 04, 2013, 09:32:36 PM
You could have a stock made.
:dunno:
My point was that one should not get too fixated on one particular brand before figuring out if it fits your body build first. At least unless you find one with full cast-on/cast-off/drop at heal adjustment.
Post by: jackelope on January 04, 2013, 09:35:35 PM
Post by: RadSav on January 04, 2013, 11:49:46 PM
Too bad you couldn't shoot them on a pattern board like bows
Ain't that the truth!
Post by: ribka on January 05, 2013, 10:06:15 AM
Miroku built for Charles Daly too.
I think a lot of what you pay for in a Browning or Beretta over a CZ is long term durability too. By that I mean it will hold up and lock up tight after 10k rounds. Something you don't necessarily need in a field gun. A much higher commodity in a sporting gun. You can drop some huge money in a sporting gun.
And SKB who make a great ou for the money
Have owned many shotguns and as mentioned fit most important. I put an adjustable stock on some of my shotguns. A bit heavy for humping up and down hills for chukar and Huns
Just picked up a CZ ultralight upland. For the money nice gun. 26 inch barrels
As I get older seem to prefer 28 inch barrel
Join a local trap and skeet club and ask to try as many as possible to shoot.
Post by: CP on January 05, 2013, 10:20:50 AM
Just picked up a CZ ultralight upland. For the money nice gun. 26 inch barrels
:yeah:
Post by: jackelope on January 05, 2013, 10:34:20 AM
I've got 2 SKB built Ithaca OU's. love them too. My favorite is my Ithaca SKB model 500 20 gauge. Sweet shooter.Miroku built for Charles Daly too.
I think a lot of what you pay for in a Browning or Beretta over a CZ is long term durability too. By that I mean it will hold up and lock up tight after 10k rounds. Something you don't necessarily need in a field gun. A much higher commodity in a sporting gun. You can drop some huge money in a sporting gun.
And SKB who make a great ou for the money
Have owned many shotguns and as mentioned fit most important. I put an adjustable stock on some of my shotguns. A bit heavy for humping up and down hills for chukar and Huns
Just picked up a CZ ultralight upland. For the money nice gun. 26 inch barrels
As I get older seem to prefer 28 inch barrel
Join a local trap and skeet club and ask to try as many as possible to shoot.
Post by: wildweeds on January 05, 2013, 10:36:39 AM
I WOULD NOT buy a beretta for all the tea in china,A fellow at work has one,he hunted with it for 2 years in North Dakota,never in the rain,cleaned it everynight and the finish on the wood started to peel off,Sent it in to berreta and they told him tough luck and offered to SELL him a new stock and forearm at no discount.I've seen more mechanical failures in berreta firearms at the skeet field than any other,My CZ has thousands of rounds through it and other than a rough saftey that's finally starting to wear in somewhat smooth it's every bit as good as my brownings.
My buddy has a franchi 20 and an skb 12,he likes em both.
After it gets it's first scratch,ding,dent,bluing wearing off your gonna get miffed and the it'll be a field shooter,your kids gonna end up with it and then your grandkids so for investment purposes don't look for mass production,There's an outfit in new england that made some very nice looking shooters a few years back that I really liked the looks of but not the price,think they went out of Biz,now one of those might be worth something in 50 years.
I guess I am looking for that point where you no longer see return on investment. With all things you get what you pay for. So I am looking for that point where I get a nice looking and hard working gun.
SR1
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on January 05, 2013, 10:47:02 AM
I have never understood why most o/u s cost so much?
Post by: jackelope on January 05, 2013, 10:51:20 AM
Post by: singleshot12 on January 05, 2013, 11:56:31 AM
Post by: mountainman on January 05, 2013, 11:58:29 AM
:)
Post by: jackelope on January 05, 2013, 01:41:28 PM
Charles Daly sucks! but CZ won't let ya down :twocents:I've got a Miroku built Charles daly gun that I have neglected, treated like crap, hunted the salt with etc. goes bang every time.
Post by: singleshot12 on January 05, 2013, 01:44:48 PM
Charles Daly sucks! but CZ won't let ya down :twocents:I've got a Miroku built Charles daly gun that I have neglected, treated like crap, hunted the salt with etc. goes bang every time.
Post by: ribka on January 05, 2013, 02:31:06 PM
The Older CD's built by Miroku are dependable. The more recent have been contracted to be built in Turkey and had some quality control issues. hearing that has been taken care of and quality is improving. No comparison to the older Japan (Miroku) ones though.
not familiar with that one, never owned one myself so i shouldn't talk, just heard a couple not so good things from friends. Maybe you got a good one :dunno:Charles Daly sucks! but CZ won't let ya down :twocents:I've got a Miroku built Charles daly gun that I have neglected, treated like crap, hunted the salt with etc. goes bang every time.
Post by: Wacenturion on January 05, 2013, 04:13:03 PM
Miroku built for Charles Daly too.
I think a lot of what you pay for in a Browning or Beretta over a CZ is long term durability too. By that I mean it will hold up and lock up tight after 10k rounds. Something you don't necessarily need in a field gun. A much higher commodity in a sporting gun. You can drop some huge money in a sporting gun.
Charles Daly Miroku built guns made in the 60's-70's are a bargain. Every bit as good in their day as Browning Superimposed and even considered better by some. Same quality, a whole lot less money. I've got a 28 gauge Miroku Daly...sweetheart. I also have a Franchi Veloce and Browning Superlight, both in 28 gauge. All three of these guns have 26 inch barrels. If I had to give up two and only keep one, it would be the Daly I keep, even with fixed chokes unlike the other two.
You should be able to fine a nice 20 gauge Daly for $700 plus.
Post by: Wacenturion on January 05, 2013, 04:16:17 PM
Charles Daly sucks! but CZ won't let ya down :twocents:
We are talking about the "real" Charles Daly guns from the 60's and 70's. Not the ones with the same name and lack of quality that came later.
Post by: Ridgeratt on January 05, 2013, 04:18:00 PM
Post by: Heredoggydoggy on January 05, 2013, 07:01:23 PM
Post by: SeaRun1 on January 06, 2013, 12:01:24 PM
I really liked carrying that 6 pound gun around as it was very light and seemed very short and nimble.
I am going to keep on looking and appreciate all the advice. If I found a Citori like the one I shot yesterday I would be all over it.
SR1
Post by: singleshot12 on January 06, 2013, 03:11:04 PM
Post by: Stilly bay on January 06, 2013, 08:22:46 PM
my only problem with the citori feather is that it has a aluminum receiver, its going to loosen up a lot sooner than a lot of guns if you shoot enough.
and because its so light it would really benefit from 28" bbls.
Quote
CZ Redhead Deluxegreat gun for the money. they handle well for some, poorly for others. the single trigger makes me nervous. CZ's mallard has mechanical double triggers which are much more relialbe and bullet proof... they don't really hold their value unless they are minty.
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Franchi Instinct SLnever shot a franchi but the ones I have handled seem cheaply and poorly made when just a little bit more money will get you better mechanics.
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Browning 625 Fieldgreat guns but they are going to put you very high in the 20 gauge weight class, close to or over 7lbs. a good 20gauge game gun should come in right about six lbs or slightly more depending on wood and BBL length. another thing to consider is that the browning 626 has a much higher profile than many other O/U, the new 725 model has fixed this with a shorter receiver but I don't know if they have started producing them in 20 gauge yet.
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Beretta 686 silver pigeon
a very light and low profile gun.
the only gun on your list that has cast built into the stock ( it means the stock is bent to benefit the shooter) a little cast can really change your shooting life for the better if you all you have shot is neutral guns.
I own two. a 20 gauge silver pigeon with 30" bbls is like a light saber. just a shade over 6lbs and a joy to shoot and carry.
berettas are the most modular guns on the market. all 680 series are identical mechanically within their own gauge, price rises with finish options. so a Silver pigeon for $2k is mechanically the same as one of their high end silver pigeon V for $6k-8K.
because of the 680 series (silver pigeons) modular design various parts can be easily removed and replaced if the wear out. few guns on your list are built this way.
I bought my base model SP1'd and in a few years once I get the money I plan on upgrading the stocks, and having few other things done making them high end guns that didn't break the bank.
Cole's Gunsmithing are THE Beretta O/U people and do amazing work http://www.colegun.com/ (http://www.colegun.com/) check it out, but don't get any drool on your key board.
Quote
Beretta Onyxthe same gun as the silver pigeon, just with a black finish and little engraving. I own one of these in 28gauge on a 20 gauge frame. Im never selling this gun, its like magic for me.
take care of any beretta or browning and you might not get a return in your investment but they won't lose value over the years. franchis, CZ's, mossbergs not so much.
last but not least, in a 20 gauge go with 28" or even 30" barrels, longer bbls will help with a smooth swing. snap shooting with shorter bbls isn't for every one.
don't listen to the people who say "get the one that fits" thats bs. get the one you want, that has the mechanics you believe in and the looks you want and have it modified to fit you. unless your 7 foot tall its should be cheap and easy to change to your needs.
Post by: jackelope on January 06, 2013, 10:52:20 PM
Post by: uplandhunter870 on January 06, 2013, 11:32:57 PM
don't listen to the people who say "get the one that fits" thats bs. get the one you want, that has the mechanics you believe in and the looks you want and have it modified to fit you. unless your 7 foot tall its should be cheap and easy to change to your needs.
i would implore you to find a competent stock smith that does quality work that is cheap heck a good looking walnut blank can run in the couple thousand range. you dont have to be 7 foot tall and built like a body builder to need custom work done. there are multiple variables in stock dimensions that dictate fit and feel such as length of pull, grip angle and curvature, narrow versus wide combs, recoil pad surface area, cast and comb offset/comb hieght. all of these are measured by the stock smith while your paying his labor fee on top of the price of the wood
finding a factory stock gun that fits whether its a beretta or mossberg is going to a lot cheaper than having custom work done. however there are a number of cheaper gadgets a guy can buy to create a custom stock feel such as adjustable butt plates and having an adjustable comb cut in or sticking on a stick on comb adjuster or butt spacers to adjust LOP
however we are talking about a field gun here not a tournament gun a person will have to look at the cost/benefit of these. IMO its just easier and ultimately cheaper to hunt around for a gun that fits at factory dimentions than do all the customization work but to each their own
Post by: Stilly bay on January 07, 2013, 12:14:39 AM
don't listen to the people who say "get the one that fits" thats bs. get the one you want, that has the mechanics you believe in and the looks you want and have it modified to fit you. unless your 7 foot tall its should be cheap and easy to change to your needs.
i would implore you to find a competent stock smith that does quality work that is cheap heck a good looking walnut blank can run in the couple thousand range. you dont have to be 7 foot tall and built like a body builder to need custom work done. there are multiple variables in stock dimensions that dictate fit and feel such as length of pull, grip angle and curvature, narrow versus wide combs, recoil pad surface area, cast and comb offset/comb hieght. all of these are measured by the stock smith while your paying his labor fee on top of the price of the wood
finding a factory stock gun that fits whether its a beretta or mossberg is going to a lot cheaper than having custom work done. however there are a number of cheaper gadgets a guy can buy to create a custom stock feel such as adjustable butt plates and having an adjustable comb cut in or sticking on a stick on comb adjuster or butt spacers to adjust LOP
however we are talking about a field gun here not a tournament gun a person will have to look at the cost/benefit of these. IMO its just easier and ultimately cheaper to hunt around for a gun that fits at factory dimentions than do all the customization work but to each their own
having a custom stock built to your dimensions does no good unless your gun mount is perfected.
90% of shooters are not going to get a gun fit to that extreme. most will just fit by how it feels off the rack and pointing at the gun room ceiling fewer still will actually go to the length of shooting a few rounds to try out a gun before buying it. I would wager their concept of what fits doesn't go too far past Length of Pull. changing the length of pull is a pretty cheap procedure for most gunsmiths, its also something you can do at home if you do a little research. I have seen too many people be turned off of a particular brand of gun because "it didn't fit" when all it would take is a half inch one way or the other.
I would highly disagree on the importance of fit for a field gun. this is where fit is the most important! when you climb to the top of a chukar hill huffing and puffing for the only shot you may get in a couple of weeks, you want that gun come up exactly where its supposed to.
I do agree that having an entire stock carved to fit your dimensions really would be ideal, but there are many things people can do to improve gun fit that aren't going to hurt the bank account and a good place to start is LOP because generally these days most factory guns are build to the same stock dimensions -so they won't lose out to other companies that supposedly fit better.
I'm 6'4" and pretty much every factory gun I have handled is too short LOP for me. My stepdad shoots K guns, full custom fitted stocks for him and I shoot those guns 10x more comfortably than mine. Bottom line is to get the most out of a shotgun its got to fit, whether its custom fit or it fits from the factory. . Shoot a pattern board if you can before you buy. Opportunity to do that might be rare though.:yeah:
or shoot a round of trap with several guns and make note on which one fit better and what their stock dimensions are.
Don't waste your money on a professional fitting until you have your gun mount perfected, otherwise a fitting won't help at all.
and don't listen to those trap club gurus that tell you to check gun fit by putting the butt in the crook of your elbow and see if your finger can reach the trigger. its absolute malarky.
Post by: uplandhunter870 on January 07, 2013, 11:52:11 AM
i agree with what youre saying Stilly but i guess what i was trying to convey is that im not trying to say that fit is not important in a field gun. it is just as important as with a tournament gun but the degree of fit does not need to be as exact as a tourny gun i feel
and yeah a completely custom carved stock to your individual measurements will do nothing if your mount is poor but proper gun mount and proper sight picture is something that is learned from repetition and muscle memory. you can have a perfectly fitting stock and if you mis-mount your gun your going to have a higher chance of missing. proper mount technique and stock fit are not necessarily correlated although a proper fitting stock helps a ton, if your gun is biting you due to improper fit you will mount the gun where it doesnt hurt to shoot it which many times is not where you should properly mount the gun.
and here we are circling back to importance of fit, haha
oh and a real easy cheap way to adjust LOP, which im sure you know, just insert some brass or galvanized washers between the recoil pad and butt stock once you get it where you like it measure the height of the washers and have a nice spacer made to fit the stock. washers can also be used to adjust the pitch of the gun as well
Post by: Stilly bay on January 07, 2013, 01:00:46 PM
im not trying to say that fit is not important in a field gun. it is just as important as with a tournament gun but the degree of fit does not need to be as exact as a tourny gun i feel
care to elaborate?
Post by: uplandhunter870 on January 07, 2013, 01:52:24 PM
im not trying to say that fit is not important in a field gun. it is just as important as with a tournament gun but the degree of fit does not need to be as exact as a tourny gun i feel
care to elaborate?
yeah. this may be a bit long winded
I am a tournament shooter mainly shoot ATA registered trapshoots and as by my call name im an avid bird hunter. as a competitive shooter i demand that my guns fit me exactly the way i want them to and both of my tournament guns have adjustable features to make that possible. in the clay target world success requires perfection or near perfection this starts at the grass roots tournaments all the way up to the olympics. the second reason i believe tourny guns need to fit to the gnats posterior is that over the typical day at a tourny we shoot anywhere between 300-450 shells (depending on the program and any shoot offs) having the gun fit perfectly greatly reduces felt recoil by allowing more of our body to absorb the recoil thus improving shooting stamina. also having a perfectly fit gun allows you to deal with weather effects on targets easier and the distances that the clays are shot. for american trapshooting a fast shooter shooting 16yd targets (singles) will break the clay between 25 and 35 yards your average shooter will break them between 35 and 50yds. for handicap shooting especially the longer yard lines like the 27 the target break zones are much farther, when shooting from the 27 most shooters will not even see the clay until it is about 35yds away from them. this is where having a good solid stock weld, proper mount and sight picture become paramount to success at this distance.
now field shooting;
in the bird hunting arena (at least for me) the distances that most birds are killed at are relatively short compared to clay shooting (except skeet). here in this arena i would sacrifice a little bit of fit in order to gain a quick proper mount and sight picture acquisition. fit is still very important cause as well all know an ill fitting gun is about as much fun to shoot as wearing skivvies that are two sizes too small and we just are not going to hit much with it however in my opinion a field gun does not need to be dialed in to the gnats rump mainly because we are dealing with shorter shots and fewer shots in a fast paced setting. i believe the key to successful wingshooting is quick proper mount and rapid sight picture acquisition a gun needs to fit well to do this and mount must be practiced. in a field gun i believe that we can get away with sacrificing a little bit of perfect fit a 1/4"of LOP or 1/2" of comb raising may make the gun fit exactly perfectly to you but as long as the gun comes up quickly and properly and shoots were you are looking and youre not winging a lot of birds why spend the $80-$100 to get an adjustable comb when the gun already fits well and is sucessfully fulfilling its role.
personally i shoot a moderately priced krieghoff for trapshooting. i can adjust everything on the stock except grip angle and curvature and i have i spent a whole day a few months ago re adjusting everything after i lost some wieght. i want that gun to be an extension of my body and securely welded into my shoulder and face. for field guns i shoot predominately remington 870s in 12 20 and 410 with no adjustments possible and they do just as well as my tourny gun.
in clay shooting we have time to deliberately mount our guns and get ready before we call for a target so we can make sure the gun is welded were we want it, in hunting who knows when a quail hun chuckar or pheasant is going to flush (unless you hunt behind dogs, i dont) so we need a gun that we can quickly and accurately mount and shoot. for a field shooting situation i rather have a gun that mounts quickly and naturally over a gun that i have to deliberately and methodically mount
Post by: Stilly bay on January 07, 2013, 02:43:08 PM
im not trying to say that fit is not important in a field gun. it is just as important as with a tournament gun but the degree of fit does not need to be as exact as a tourny gun i feel
care to elaborate?
in clay shooting we have time to deliberately mount our guns and get ready before we call for a target so we can make sure the gun is welded were we want it, in hunting who knows when a quail hun chuckar or pheasant is going to flush (unless you hunt behind dogs, i dont) so we need a gun that we can quickly and accurately mount and shoot. for a field shooting situation i rather have a gun that mounts quickly and naturally over a gun that i have to deliberately and methodically mount
gotcha, this is where we differ.
I am first and foremost a bird hunter but I do shoot a lot of clays mainly to practice mechanics, muscle memory, gun mount, all that good stuff.
BUT i always shoot low gun, I have been doing it this way my whole life and quite frankly couldn't hit the side of a barn if I started at high gun. in field shooting I too want a gun that mounts quickly and naturally and that is fitted as closely to my body as I can get, no matter how tired I am or how bad my shoulders hurt or my neck aches from lugging around three blue grouse. the closer you can get your gun fitted to the gnats rump the better off you are. and if spending $100 bucks on a modification will help put two or three extra birds in my bag per year with this gun that I might have missed otherwise, it really seems too cheap to pass up. :dunno:
it seems like the Sporting clays tournament guys will spend thousands for something that will give them enough edge to break an extra target or two... should hunters be any different?
the same stamina you speak of while shooting tournaments probably doesn't even come close to the stamina it takes to bring down that last chukar in your limit. but as a tournament shooter your mechanics and muscle memory probably far surpass that of most average hunters and shooters so you probably would do well with just about any gun you pick up within reasonable dimension. what I am mainly suggesting is a happy middle ground for most average joes, since any adjustment towards perfection is better than not doing anything. repeatability
in other words I agree with you. 8)
Post by: HoofsandWings on January 07, 2013, 08:46:45 PM
Post by: jetjockey on January 08, 2013, 08:56:53 PM
Here's some sames of guns out there
http://www.gunsinternational.com/-Miroku-Charles-Daly-Over-Under-20-gauge-shotgun-S2850-.cfm?gun_id=100292431 (http://www.gunsinternational.com/-Miroku-Charles-Daly-Over-Under-20-gauge-shotgun-S2850-.cfm?gun_id=100292431)
http://www.gunsinternational.com/Beretta-686-White-Onyx-20-Gauge.cfm?gun_id=100310364 (http://www.gunsinternational.com/Beretta-686-White-Onyx-20-Gauge.cfm?gun_id=100310364)
http://www.gunsinternational.com/Beretta-686-Onyx-20-Ga-.cfm?gun_id=100291199 (http://www.gunsinternational.com/Beretta-686-Onyx-20-Ga-.cfm?gun_id=100291199)
Post by: Stilly bay on January 08, 2013, 09:18:45 PM
I would skip the cheaper guns and narrow your search down to Berettas, Brownings, or either of the 3 Mirokus (they built guns for Charles Dailey, Browning, and under the Miroku name). The quality will be a nice step up from the CZs, Red Labels, etc. If my budget was under $1000 I would limit my search to a used Miroku.
mirokus are decent for the money but most of them can't handle steel shot. some of the later ones with interchangeable chokes can handle steel but they aren't usually the bargain that other fixed choked mirokus would be, not to mention they aren't nearly as plentiful. if the OP is never going to areas where steel shot is mandatory a miroku would be excellent choice... unless lead is banned in the near future. Investment wise I would play it safe for steel and stick with a "B" gun.
When shooting competition you typically wear the same shooting vest and your clothes are typically the same thickness. When hunting, you might be wearing anything from a thin shooting shirt to a bulky jacket with lots of layers. That alone will change the "fit" of a gun.....
good point. my duck guns all have a shorter LOP to accommodate heavy late season clothing. but if your just going to have one upland gun its not terribly difficult to change pad thickness to adjust the LOP as the season progresses. usually two screws and your good to go.
Post by: jetjockey on January 09, 2013, 04:42:52 AM
As far a LOP goes, I've hunted pheasant in SD with my 686 20 ga in December. We started hunting in 10 degree air and it warmed up to 35 in the afternoon. In the morning I was bundled up, but by the time it warmed up and we were moving I was down to just a shooting shirt. That's why I don't get too hung up on LOP being perfect. A funny thing happened when hunting pheasants in PA this year. We went out for the morning hunt and I grabbed my shotgun case and headed out. When we got to the field I I cases my gun and whoops, it was my Father In laws Ceasar Guerini EVO 20. The only problem is he had the stock shortened and the gun was too short for me. I hunted with it anyway since I didn't want to go back to the farm house. I proceeded to shoot it nearly as well as my Beretta. For 90% of us, learning how to mount a shotgun properly and keeping our heads on the stock will go a hell of a lot further than a custom fit gun. A gun can fit perfectly but if your raising your head and not getting a good mount, a perfectly fit gun wont do crap. 90% of the factory guns are "close enough" to fit 90% of the shooters decently.
Post by: SeaRun1 on January 10, 2013, 11:55:14 AM
I have learned a lot from this thread and want to thank everyone for taking the time to post and add their thoughts. I looked at all of my options and went with one that fit well and looked attractive to me.
I picked up the Beretta Silver Pigeon in 20 gauge with 28" barrels. Looking forward to knocking down some birds this weekend.
Thanks again fellas.
SR1
Post by: Heredoggydoggy on January 10, 2013, 12:58:29 PM
Post by: SeaRun1 on January 10, 2013, 02:48:49 PM
Glad you got a shotgun you like. Confidence in your gun is a big part of the process. Remember--You didn't have to sign a marriage contract to get the gun. If it turns out you don't like it, get rid of it and get another one! :chuckle:
I'll try to keep that in mind. It is awfully pretty though. It would be hard to let go of it.
SR1
Post by: Stilly bay on January 10, 2013, 02:51:51 PM
Just following up...
I have learned a lot from this thread and want to thank everyone for taking the time to post and add their thoughts. I looked at all of my options and went with one that fit well and looked attractive to me.
I picked up the Beretta Silver Pigeon in 20 gauge with 28" barrels. Looking forward to knocking down some birds this weekend.
Thanks again fellas.
SR1
right on! outstanding gun for the money! I love mine.
Post by: singleshot12 on January 10, 2013, 03:03:25 PM
Just following up...
I have learned a lot from this thread and want to thank everyone for taking the time to post and add their thoughts. I looked at all of my options and went with one that fit well and looked attractive to me.
I picked up the Beretta Silver Pigeon in 20 gauge with 28" barrels. Looking forward to knocking down some birds this weekend.
Thanks again fellas.
SR1
I'm jealous, way to go and it fits too :tup: Wish I could afford one but then again I'd be too afraid to srrratch it ;)
Post by: Stilly bay on January 10, 2013, 04:41:07 PM
Post by: jetjockey on January 10, 2013, 05:05:30 PM
Last year, before our morning pheasant hunt in PA in the snow, we were all grabbing our guns from the farm house. One of the guys grabbed his pinless 20 ga sidelock bespoke SXS from England. It was a gun worth at least. $50,000+. We were all amazed when the guy grabbed his gun and said "let's go". We asked him if he was really going to hunt with that gun and he said "it's a shotgun, and it was built to hunt"..
There is no such thing as a gun to pretty or expensive to hunt.. They were built to hunt, so lets hunt them...
Post by: singleshot12 on January 10, 2013, 05:18:58 PM
they wear their scratches well, have you seen mine lately? looks like the cat got it :'(
yeah but i bet it hurt when you got your first gouge. And I couldn't imagine falling in the mud with it which i seem to do atleast once a year
Post by: SeaRun1 on January 10, 2013, 06:58:14 PM
I am hunting the gun this weekend for Quail and going to start the legacy with this gun. If I pass it on to a son with scratches I hope I have raised a son that appreciates a scratched gun and what it represents in the first place.
Again thank you guys for all your help. HuntWa is a great site.
SR1
Post by: Stilly bay on January 10, 2013, 07:53:17 PM
I've had the opportunity to hunt with guys who hunt with some pretty nice shotguns. When I say nice, I mean guns that average about $5000-$10,000, with the occasional gun well over $50,000. The crazy thing is, the guys who own those ridiculously priced guns, have absolutely no problem hunting them in every condition.
Last year, before our morning pheasant hunt in PA in the snow, we were all grabbing our guns from the farm house. One of the guys grabbed his pinless 20 ga sidelock bespoke SXS from England. It was a gun worth at least. $50,000+. We were all amazed when the guy grabbed his gun and said "let's go". We asked him if he was really going to hunt with that gun and he said "it's a shotgun, and it was built to hunt"..
There is no such thing as a gun to pretty or expensive to hunt.. They were built to hunt, so lets hunt them...
but for most us hard working hunters there is such a thing as a gun that is too expensive to buy, and I can tell you first hand when that gun you have worked your ass of for and saved for over the course of a few years finally gets that first scratch and the newness is gone- it truly does hurt, but you get over it pretty quick.
chances are a guy that can afford $50K gun and hunts with it, can also afford another $50K gun if the first one gets damaged beyond repair or at least a top of the line guns smith to pretty it back up. if he can't, he really doesn't have business buying a $50K bird gun in the first place.
Post by: jetjockey on January 11, 2013, 05:48:41 AM
Post by: jetjockey on January 24, 2013, 02:27:39 AM
Post by: Stilly bay on January 24, 2013, 12:36:56 PM
correct me if Im wrong, but isn't one of the discounts only available if you are counted as a "loyal CSMC customer" otherwise your coughing up another 1K... and I don't think they are starting the price at 3K anymore its more like four or five G's.
I am keeping my eyes peeled for one on the used market, or perhaps if they bring it out in 16 ga. but with all the problems and complaints about the A10 american line, CSMC guns have me a little leery.
Post by: jetjockey on January 24, 2013, 01:10:41 PM
You are correct about the Inverness, you do need to be a CSMC customer to get the extra $1000 off. The current price till Feb 1 is $4995 plus $1000 off if you pay in full and $1000 off if your a current customer. Those prices are still good, I just had one ordered. With 3X wood and shipping it came to just over $3400. Everyone I know with CSMC products have been very happy with them, and that includes some guys who are incredibly picky about guns. The long tang is nice, but $700 is steep IMO. I will say though, if money was no object the Deluxe is a beautiful gun. But for $6950 with all the discounts, it should be. CSMC says 8-12 months, but hopefully sooner now that they are starting to get the first orders shipped out.
Post by: Stilly bay on January 24, 2013, 02:42:22 PM
Not sure what the complaints are about the A-10's, but they are SWEET guns. My Father in Law has one, and while it did double fire, CMSC fixed it immediately. I have another buddy who just ordered a sporting model as well.
there were a few threads on UJ and SS that deplored CSMC's customer service / quality control issues lately. seems like too many quality issues for a gun at that high of a price point. and those folks are about as picky as you can get.
the new small frame A10 looks like winner, if it handles as good as it looks.
The long tang is nice, but $700 is steep IMO. I will say though, if money was no object the Deluxe is a beautiful gun. But for $6950 with all the discounts, it should be. CSMC says 8-12 months, but hopefully sooner now that they are starting to get the first orders shipped out.
be sure to post up a full critique on hunt -WA when you get it. :drool:
Post by: jetjockey on January 24, 2013, 04:31:56 PM
Not sure what the complaints are about the A-10's, but they are SWEET guns. My Father in Law has one, and while it did double fire, CMSC fixed it immediately. I have another buddy who just ordered a sporting model as well.
there were a few threads on UJ and SS that deplored CSMC's customer service / quality control issues lately. seems like too many quality issues for a gun at that high of a price point. and those folks are about as picky as you can get.
the new small frame A10 looks like winner, if it handles as good as it looks.The long tang is nice, but $700 is steep IMO. I will say though, if money was no object the Deluxe is a beautiful gun. But for $6950 with all the discounts, it should be. CSMC says 8-12 months, but hopefully sooner now that they are starting to get the first orders shipped out.
be sure to post up a full critique on hunt -WA when you get it. :drool:
I'll do that. I'll also say its not going to be my gun. My dads buying it to leave at my house down here in GA so he doesn't have to take guns back and fourth on the airlines. Many of the plantations require break open shotguns, and the Inverness was the best bang for the buck at the current time. But trust me, I will get to shoot it! Haba