Post by: boneaddict on March 27, 2007, 10:48:58 AM
I personally think the three point or better law has improved hunting in Eastern Washington, especially in the Methow where there is tons of pressure. I usually am after a trophy deer, but on occasion on the last day have filled the tag for meat with a spike. When on the winter range, its nice to see some escapement for the younger stupid bucks that most likely would be in someones freezer.
Post by: Muleyslyr on March 27, 2007, 02:44:58 PM
Post by: Jerome on March 27, 2007, 03:59:35 PM
Post by: jackelope on March 27, 2007, 04:57:32 PM
my home state of new york where i grew up just changed to a 3 pt minimum in a lot of the state.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on March 27, 2007, 05:10:38 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on March 27, 2007, 05:20:48 PM
Post by: PolarBear on March 27, 2007, 07:00:26 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on March 27, 2007, 07:04:12 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on March 27, 2007, 07:28:40 PM
I would like to see a one point up restriction for blacktails. If it is currently an any buck unit, move it up to 2 pt or better. If it is already 2 pt+, make it 3 pt+. I live by the Vail tree farm and have said for years that if they were to put a point restriction in place and that it could be one hell of a trophy area.
I haven't hunted out that way in years, but I have to agree with you. The terrain and varied timber/cuts can really produce the deer and if given the chance they could actually put some meat on their bones and some bones on their head.
Maybe they could keep spikes for youth hunts.
Post by: sisu on March 27, 2007, 09:42:08 PM
Post by: Chessie_Guy on March 27, 2007, 09:45:11 PM
Along with the three point rule I'd like to see a three choice season at no extra cost. By this I mean being able to hunt bow, black powder and modern as long as your license remains unfilled. Other states allow this but not ours and I personally would love to see this change happen before I am too damn old to hunt.
I don't agree. I think this actually increases hunting pressure. The State of Oregon currently allows this.
Post by: Ridgerunner on March 27, 2007, 10:10:20 PM
Post by: boneaddict on March 28, 2007, 06:24:14 AM
Post by: boneaddict on March 28, 2007, 06:25:58 AM
Post by: bobcat on March 28, 2007, 09:09:43 AM
Last year I was sitting at the edge of a clearcut over in the Teanaway, and had a nice buck bedded at 252 yards, according to the rangefinder. He had to have been at least 25 inches wide, and just as high, with nice long tines, and I sat there with my Pentax 8x42 binos on him for over a half hour, but with me facing into the sun while it was just coming up over the hill, and making for very poor visibility, I never could be sure that he was a legal buck, although I would be very surprised if he didn't have 4 points per side.
As far as letting everybody hunt archery, rifle, and muzzleloader seasons, that will never happen. It would be too much pressure and would be too crowded for my taste. Oregon does not allow this either. Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming do but those states have a lot less people than we do here.
Post by: Muleyslyr on March 28, 2007, 10:19:33 AM
Does that make any sense??
Post by: Dman on March 28, 2007, 11:27:19 AM
Post by: BrushChimp on March 28, 2007, 01:45:42 PM
As far as the blacktails over here are concerned, we need at least a 2-pt or better restriction and fast. Deer numbers are the lowest they've been in a long while. With this "hair loss syndrome" that our WDFW will put no money into research, and grown men shooting button bucks and spikes we are having a hard time supporting a deer population like we had 10 years ago. It's sad really. When you see 4 grown men blasting away at a spike buck. Though there is no restriction, I've hunted 2-pt. or better since I started hunting 7 years ago. It was just the way I was raised.
As far as the "it's-bad-that-younger-bucks/bulls-are-breeding-does/cows-instead-of-mature-bucks/bulls" goes, I believe that sperm is sperm and genetics are genetics. Whether it comes from a spike buck when he is 1.5 y.o. or that same spike buck 4 years later, the genetics in his sperm are still the same. So a doe bred by a buck during any time in that buck's life will yield the same resultant fawn. His genetics cannot mutate over time and somehow become "better." But that's just the way I think about it...
Post by: Opportunist on March 28, 2007, 05:45:28 PM
Post by: boneaddict on March 28, 2007, 06:13:26 PM
Post by: Muleyslyr on March 29, 2007, 04:19:10 PM
Post by: BrushChimp on March 29, 2007, 05:21:32 PM
Post by: hunterofelk on March 29, 2007, 05:22:09 PM
Post by: Ironhead on March 29, 2007, 08:35:11 PM
Post by: Dman on March 30, 2007, 11:52:01 AM
Post by: jackelope on March 30, 2007, 12:11:26 PM
Post by: boneaddict on March 31, 2007, 07:15:03 AM
Post by: MichaelJ on April 05, 2007, 12:58:00 AM
ridge.....as far as killing the bigger maturer bucks before they have a chance to breed, that is obviously true. But, just because a smaller, less mature buck ends up breeding with a couple does that big mature buck should've been, doesn't mean he's not passing on his Genetics. Those smaller 2 and 3pts that end up gettin' some tail, maybe just be some of those big migratory bucks in a few years. Therefore, their genetics have been passed.
Does that make any sense??
It makes sense but there is a very real problem with that based on mule deer biology. What mule deer does will do, is in the early stages of the rut (late October to Middle of November), they will tend to not allow younger more immature bucks breed them. They know they're looking for a big mature buck to knock 'em up and will typically ignore lesser ones. However if there are no mature bucks around, the rut will progress and many of the does that weren't bred during the early rut will wait until late november/early december to get bred by an immature buck. So yes, he's still passing on his genes, but the fawns produced from this are one-two months behind in age for the upcoming winter which means they aren't as physically prepared/mature as they should be which results in a higher fawn mortality rate... so we do want the mature bucks doing the breeding if possible...
As for the three point or better law, I agree with it, but I think we should have something similar to what Canada does... during the early part of the season, have a two point only, and four point or better law. This would let the meat hunters get their small bucks in the freezer, and take out some of those MONSTER two point bucks that are commonly found in the Entiat and other units in the state. Then once the season progresses, make it a three point or better law to allow the trophy hunters a crack at some more mature bucks... By doing this we could weed out the bad genetics on a short term hunt (like the first 4-5 days of the season) while letting the hunters that are there for the 4 point or better season be hunting among other trophy hunters thus reducing the hunting pressure... this I agree with but I like option number two below...
What I would really support is a 3 point or better season, except once every 3-5 years introduce a two point or better season to cut back on those big mature forkies and to cut the herd back to a more quality genetic gene pool. This way, we'd still have the benefits of the three point or better rules, with a hunting "cull" every few years to weed out the bad genetics... what say you to that?
Michael
Post by: Machias on April 05, 2007, 04:43:16 PM
One thing about the elk and this has been born out. It's not necessarily the genetics they are worried about being passed along by the younger bulls. It's the fact that young bulls are not as good at inpregnating the cows, therefore the cows drop their calves over several days, even a couple of weeks which allows predators to kill and consume more than if the cows which are breed by herd bulls all drop within a couple of days of each other.
Post by: boneaddict on April 06, 2007, 06:52:48 AM
Anybody been down to the two point only region in Idaho?
Post by: MichaelJ on April 10, 2007, 11:18:19 PM
Both of you have very good points and I think there is truth about both of your theories.
Anybody been down to the two point only region in Idaho?
Thanks, anybody know if we hunters can get together to voice our own opinions and such? Who decides the seasons and dates and such?
I know in talking with a biologist (Bo Patterson I think, maybe Petterson) that he agreed with the two-point idea, but it seems that it's hard to push a big change like that... Any ideas?
Michael
Post by: WAmuleyHunter on April 10, 2007, 11:43:28 PM
Post by: MichaelJ on April 11, 2007, 12:10:07 AM
i dont think the two point thing will ever happen. And they just set the new seasons or changes for the next couple years. they do have meetings, and they post them on the WDFW site. I have been to several. bio's and game managers and the state have their own plans, but they do listen to us on some things. So just check their site and sometimes they but a bulletin in the paper also for the meetings. And this two point only thing to thin out these monster two points, well that for an early season or general season wouldnt really work since most of these big two points, in the entiat area are being seen with the migration in nov and december. And while we are at it we might as well kill off all the monster 3 points in there also, so we just have nice perfect four points. ;) I think a small percentage of the "lesser" bucks breed the does, as Beau Patterson would tell you, as the does dont recieve them as much, and those migrators are usually right behind them, and breeding them on the way out on the migration. So i dont think thats a real big problem. I love the 3 point rule, its a great tool that we have now, if we wanted more big bucks, there would be less rifle permits, less late archery, and lots of closed roads, to give the deer all the best situations. But we know that isnt possible and wont happen,
Well there's one thing I definitely agree with you on, and that's the more closed roads...and that includes 4 wheelers... as for the two points, what would be the problem with introducing a two-point only late hunt? Maybe 10-20 tags for each of the entiat units, aswell as the others around the valley... Just curious as to why this wouldn't work?
Michael
Post by: jackelope on April 11, 2007, 07:46:36 AM
Post by: boneaddict on April 11, 2007, 09:00:11 AM
Post by: WAmuleyHunter on April 11, 2007, 09:48:59 AM
Post by: MichaelJ on April 11, 2007, 10:00:13 AM
Less rifle/archery tags would be great, and I think that's a solid solution to bringing the mature buck population back up to par... :)
Michael
Post by: Machias on April 11, 2007, 10:04:17 AM
Post by: boneaddict on April 15, 2007, 10:20:33 AM
Post by: Ironhead on April 15, 2007, 11:39:42 AM
Post by: WAmuleyHunter on April 15, 2007, 07:40:59 PM
Post by: boneaddict on April 16, 2007, 06:09:26 AM
Post by: bobcat on May 01, 2007, 11:11:31 AM
http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID6/14377.html
Post by: slow on July 29, 2007, 06:48:33 AM
Post by: Hoytshooter on July 29, 2007, 11:49:22 AM
Post by: rewent12003 on July 29, 2007, 12:54:47 PM
Post by: boneaddict on July 30, 2007, 05:49:24 PM
Idabooner kept talking about this huge two point one day when I was watching this two point and a very nice fourpoint. I thought he flipped his lid. Why is he so interested in this damn two point. Later on he brings up this damn two point again, I'm like whatts the deal with this two point. He starts describing how its 30 inches wide, antlers shaped like a longhorn. I had no Idea. I never saw it and wasn't interested. I could have kicked myself. A year later, right about in the same local, there he is again, chasing after a doe and a huge buck. I wondered who got the doe. It was cool to see him. Just like a long horn as described. If I have told this story on here already, sorry. It reminded me of it again when I heard about the thirty inch two point. I still need to get pics of the one I have in my garage that I am working on.
Post by: sisu on August 05, 2007, 08:56:19 AM
I would like to see the game department employ folks that hunt and/or fish to help determine areas and requirements. Keep the anti-game biologist out of the employment of the game department. Let them work for PAWS or PETA.hear, hear.
Post by: boneaddict on September 27, 2008, 07:25:28 AM
Post by: Red Dawg on September 27, 2008, 08:35:46 AM
Post by: jdb on September 27, 2008, 06:50:39 PM
Post by: Jerbear on September 27, 2008, 09:25:29 PM
Post by: Curlew Firedog on September 27, 2008, 11:04:05 PM
Post by: Bean Counter on September 28, 2008, 01:18:17 AM
I agree with the three point rule but I would like to make it so eyeguards don't count. I've seen to many forked horns laying around dead because someone thought it must have an 1" eyeguard. They could even go to a true 4 point on muley without eyeguards. Raise the blacktail to 2 point min and leave the whitetails as any buck (at least in NE).
:yeah:
4 pt minimum and give out more doe tags.
I don't know why the blacktails got switched from 2 pt minimum to any buck--there must be enough of 'em I guess. :dunno:
Post by: actionshooter on September 28, 2008, 07:42:14 AM
Post by: Jerbear on September 28, 2008, 09:58:30 AM
Here in Klickitat county, the game dept rules make you wonder. I live in Unit 388. Now if a buck is a 2 point,
if in this area he is a mule deer. If he crosses the river into 578, he then is a blacktail, and he can be shot.
Koenings clowns must burn midnight oil, to figure how they can screw with us.
Post by: kramman on September 28, 2008, 03:45:39 PM
Post by: BC CHASER on September 28, 2008, 05:30:36 PM
Mission A- Any deer - 28 tags - Nov. 1-18Th General tag
Mission B- Antlerless - 168 tags - Oct. 13-28Th General tag
Mission C- Anterless - 36 tags - Oct. 4-10Th Muzzleloader tag
Mission D- Any deer - 12 tags - Oct. 13-28Th 65 or older tag
Mission E- Any deer - 20 tags - Oct. 13-28Th Hunters with disabilities tag
Mission F- Antlerless - 168 tags - Oct. 11-26Th Youth tag
Mission G- Any deer - 16 tags - Oct. 1-10Th Youth muzzleloader
A total of 448 tags are given. No late muzzleloader or archery tags are currently given. They have a few any deer tags to weed out some of the forkies. 448 tags are quite a few, so we add say 70 general season 3pt minimum tags for rifle guy's, 35 for archery guys and 22 for Muzzleloader. 15 late archery tags and 10 late muzzleloader tags. That is a total of 600 tags for that unit alone. Not every tag would get filled and I am no biologist so as far as what the heard could support I do not know, maybe more tags could be given. If they went through every mule deer area and went to permit only for them I them I think they could keep pretty much everyone happy. The meat hunters would put in for their meat hunts and the horn guys theirs. I'm sure they could work something out for every GMU to give some quality hunts for everyone and to preserve and produce some giants in other areas that get hammered. Oh I also forgot to mention change special apps. to 1 or 2 options not 4. As far as the blacktail areas I do think they need to put some 2 point restrictions a on a few areas. But like someone said before there are big ones everywhere they just hide better.
Post by: C-Money on September 30, 2008, 05:34:43 PM
Post by: kingsalmonkllr77 on November 16, 2008, 09:40:16 PM
Post by: blacktail luv on November 16, 2008, 10:03:54 PM
Post by: RC3 on November 16, 2008, 10:14:09 PM
I do wish we would go more like the way Colorado has the seasons broken up into seperate one week seasons for their permits so not so many hunters in the woods at once
Post by: stumprat on November 16, 2008, 10:19:07 PM
I go to the three year meetings, but I get pretty frustrated. They already have their minds made up on the course they are going to take and I believe the meetings serve to only try and placate us. They get such diverse ideas and thoughts and you get plenty of anti hunters at the meetings and writing in. In the end I go and voice my opinion, and will continue to do so, but honestly I believe I have NO impact at all in this state.
My thoughts exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: elkaholic_74 on November 18, 2008, 08:11:55 PM
Post by: youngchristof on December 01, 2008, 11:49:30 AM
Post by: mossback91 on December 01, 2008, 12:06:33 PM
Also the only problem with the any deer youth season is the fact that *censored*head parents shoot deer for their kids......I had a chance to hunt seasons liek this for two years in ok county..... I know kids whos parents actually shot deer and made them tag it and I think that had alot to do with the season change even though it is good for the youth.
Post by: croix on December 01, 2008, 12:36:16 PM
If you want more deer with smaller racks, then let the spikes walk. If you want more trophy racks, then pull the trigger on spikes.
The other interesting thing that I gleened from this report was regarding overall herd strength. It seems that the biggest factor affecting overall health and herd size was the buck to doe ratio. The closer they got to a 1:1 ratio the better the herd did.
It is hard to argue with the success of three-point restrictions in certain areas, but IMO weeding out the inferior genetics of spike deer would have an impact that would be hard to ignore. It is also my opinion that no matter what antler restriction is used, antlerless deer population has to be controlled for overall herd strength.
My bottom line is that I cannot support a state wide restriction of any kind. Each area can support different populations and should be treated as such. I would rather see a good overall population than a ton of trophy racks. I like to see a good rack on my wall as much as the next guy, but like Teacherman's signature says... "antlers dont taste very good no matter how long you cook them..."
Just my :twocents:
Post by: yelp on December 02, 2008, 09:17:17 PM
I think three point or better isn't the answer for quality mule deer.
Permit Only and proactive deer management.
I think most hunters aren't trophy hunters. I think if wdfw changed some GMUs to any buck. 80% of hunters (knowing they didn't have to count points) would take a few 3 pt bucks but the majority just like before 3pt or better would harvest the first buck they saw. I think we would see more of the older class of bucks make it through to the rut. Those are the bucks we want to pass on genetics not big two points. Deer management must be proactive and fluid. It must roll with the punches. If we have a bad winter. Initiate 3 pt or better for herd recovery for a few years. Increasebuck recruitment. Private land GMUs and Public Land GMUs have different harvest rates and different hunting pressures. It is all based on opportunity. That is why many private land areas have quality hunting. Now there are public land GMUs that have lots of quality deer with lots of pressure. I believe these areas are product of habitat, terrain and herd composition. The hard part about Mule deer is that they move and they migrate. Some areas get pounded by hunters and buck numbers are low going into the rut. Has anyone seen late fawns Late June/July. Well many times some areas don't have enough bucks to breed all available does so when unbred does migrate down to winter range they will hook up with a buck later. Not all fawns are born at the same time. This delay affects winter survival rates. Buck composition seems to be different in each GMU too. The WDFW manages on a PMU (collection of GMU's) which means that you may have one GMU that has got it all. 25bucks/100 does. But when you average it with all the other GMUs within the PMU the average drops to 16 bucks/100 does. That is what the seasons are recommended upon. I would like to see more focused management. Remember before three point or better? Longer seasons, small bucks. Some areas exploded when 3 pt or better was implemented. It seems that it cause a natural selection for a two point by removing three point or better bucks. I don't have any answers but I don't think three point or better is the only answer. :twocents:
Post by: fc2038 on December 02, 2008, 10:29:02 PM
Post by: bobcat on December 02, 2008, 10:32:06 PM
Post by: ICEMAN on December 03, 2008, 06:19:05 AM
I like the 3pt/better.
One problem I see is that in some areas, genetic 2's end up perpetuating their genes to the point of crowding out the bigger rack gene. One area I hunt (might be entiat, might be chiwawa, might be swakane....) is crowded with big2's, and they keep hatching more 2's.... :'(
Post by: buckbrush on December 06, 2008, 10:59:51 PM