Post by: cougarbart on January 19, 2013, 07:43:06 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 19, 2013, 07:58:15 PM
It's just like coyotes. How has unlimited hunting of them kept their numbers down? (It hasn't)
Post by: cougarbart on January 19, 2013, 08:00:42 PM
Post by: turkeyfeather on January 19, 2013, 08:04:51 PM
Post by: cougarbart on January 19, 2013, 08:07:08 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 19, 2013, 08:19:54 PM
so all deer and elk hunting will be done by 2020, except in wheat counties?
No, they're not going to kill ALL the deer and elk. Look at Idaho and Montana, they're still hunting deer and elk in those states, along with the wolves. But of course, they have a lot more habitat, whereas we have fragmented habitat with little to no winter range in certain areas. I'm wondering how well the elk will do around the feeding stations once the wolves get established in those areas. I could definitely see this state going to permit only hunting for deer and elk, if wolves become abundant.
Post by: waterdoctor on January 19, 2013, 08:24:33 PM
It is not a very good hand we have been dealt but our great grandfathers did O.K.
Post by: ICEMAN on January 19, 2013, 08:30:00 PM
Once the wolves start coming closer to our dogs then we will see parvo and distemper start taking out some of them. Heart worms will reduce their life span and mange will result in the ones getting it kicking due to exposure in the winter. People that live out like I do will start getting really big tough dogs, not one but two or three.
It is not a very good hand we have been dealt but our great grandfathers did O.K.
Your great grandfather probably poisoned wolves.....
Post by: cougarbart on January 19, 2013, 08:41:03 PM
Post by: Mudman on January 19, 2013, 08:45:12 PM
Post by: IBspoiled on January 19, 2013, 08:47:47 PM
good luck with that tough dog thing! They won't wipe the ungulates out but why have any hunting if the population is so low?With no reason to hunt theres no reason to own guns either :bash:
Post by: cougarbart on January 19, 2013, 08:48:35 PM
hunting should have no bearing on gun ownership! different subject!
Post by: bobcat on January 19, 2013, 08:49:11 PM
good luck with that tough dog thing! They won't wipe the ungulates out but why have any hunting if the population is so low?With no reason to hunt theres no reason to own guns either :bash:
There will always be something to hunt- wolves and coyotes if nothing else. :tup:
Post by: bobcat on January 19, 2013, 08:50:03 PM
is it feasible to poison with how populated some of these packs are in? smackout pass pack has houses both in metaline side and deep cr. side! huckleberry has all kinds of houses throughout that unit, strawberry has aeneas valley right there?
You can bet poisoning of wolves will not be allowed. No way.
Post by: splitshot on January 19, 2013, 08:53:21 PM
Post by: cougarbart on January 19, 2013, 08:54:28 PM
Post by: Humptulips on January 19, 2013, 09:00:26 PM
Seriously though, this is how hunting will end. Predators will manage excess game populations. It's already happening. We're just caught in the whirlpool now circling the drain.
Post by: Mudman on January 19, 2013, 09:04:09 PM
Post by: denali on January 19, 2013, 10:36:42 PM
Post by: AspenBud on January 20, 2013, 10:55:53 AM
so all deer and elk hunting will be done by 2020, except in wheat counties?
No, they're not going to kill ALL the deer and elk. Look at Idaho and Montana, they're still hunting deer and elk in those states, along with the wolves. But of course, they have a lot more habitat, whereas we have fragmented habitat with little to no winter range in certain areas. I'm wondering how well the elk will do around the feeding stations once the wolves get established in those areas. I could definitely see this state going to permit only hunting for deer and elk, if wolves become abundant.
My gut feeling is you're right. Or at the very least you're looking at more cyclical years of hunting where some years the big game population is tiny thanks to too many wolves and in other years it "booms" after enough wolves have starved and died.
That assumes they don't have the ability to kill every last deer and elk of course and also assumes that "boom" years will be far less productive than has been historically the case.
Small game hunters might benefit from the lack of coyotes however.
The scarier thought to me is that western Washington timber companies really don't like deer. They eat the tops off saplings and cause all sorts of havoc on their tree farms. What happens when wolves enter those areas? The public hasn't always been wise in how they treat private timber land thanks to dumping etc. But if enough deer are killed by wolves in those areas, will that cause those companies to close down their lands and make hunters unwelcome since they could be viewed as "not needed?" It kind of keeps me awake at night.
Post by: bobcat on January 20, 2013, 11:02:01 AM
Post by: Mudman on January 20, 2013, 11:09:19 AM
Post by: cougarbart on January 20, 2013, 11:43:27 AM
Post by: splitshot on January 23, 2013, 04:59:00 PM
Post by: Humptulips on January 23, 2013, 05:17:30 PM
have hunters buy a permit and have some income other than paying farmers for animals the wolves eat. they need to be controlled just like cougars, bears and coyotes. mike w
One would infer from your post that cougars, bears and coyotes are being controlled.
I think not!
Post by: Special T on January 23, 2013, 05:41:04 PM
Post by: Mudman on January 23, 2013, 05:44:46 PM
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on January 23, 2013, 05:47:10 PM
There is no way to control them by hunting.
But Bobcat, I hear hunters all the time saying that controlling game populations is one of the main reasons we need hunting. Are you gonna tell me hunters can control deer and elk numbers, but they can't control wolves? Don't worry tho, wolves will help us out. They are one of the biggest killers of wolves.
Post by: bobcat on January 23, 2013, 05:53:15 PM
Post by: Curly on January 23, 2013, 06:00:29 PM
Post by: Ridgeratt on January 23, 2013, 06:07:49 PM
One thing I'm not sure of is how effectively wolves can hunt in the brushy terrain we have here in western Washington. Sure they will get all the elk with hoof rot, but after that, how long will the wolves last? Or will they even be able to establish themselves over here at all? Will it only be in the high country? How will they do in the lowlands around Puget Sound?
Bobcat are you serious! Do you realize just how brushy it is in Northern Idaho and Eastern Washington.
The wolves will last just as the coyotes have adapted to almost every state in the union. If there is any type of food base they will establish them selves. If you follow any of the post about them on this side, Just look at Bone's post some of his photos are in open sage!
One of the Farmers in the Wedge's calving pens are just outside of his Kitchen window. So once they overcome the fear of surroundings they will be right in your backyard.
Post by: JCKILLSHOT on January 23, 2013, 06:09:39 PM
Post by: Ridgeratt on January 23, 2013, 06:10:59 PM
The sooner we start killing them the easier they will be to control.
You won't get that wish until the westside management goals have been reached. :twocents:
Post by: JCKILLSHOT on January 23, 2013, 06:15:02 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 23, 2013, 06:15:55 PM
Yes, I was serious, sorry if my question upset you. I'm not a wolf biologist and don't pretend to know much about them. But what I do know is there have been wolves in the northern Cascades since at least the mid-80's, and we still have no verifiable wolves on the west side of the state. So why is that? I don't know, but if this was ideal wolf habitat you would think they would be here by now.
Post by: Ridgeratt on January 23, 2013, 06:32:12 PM
I have had several conversations with the Region 1 wolf Bio over here. One of the last was just a few weeks after they had done the partial removal of the Wedge Pack. 2 days after I spoke with him I found fresh wolf crap less that 2 miles from the Diamond M Ranch.
The Bio did make a statement to me that made a ton of sense. That was in Canada right now there is not a large Market for Wolf fur. Also since it seems that perhaps Trapping is sort of a dying art. Not many folks are setting a trap to catch some thing that has a zero return as a Bobcat or a high quality fur. If you look at a map the Wedge is just the bottom of a funnel without a bottom. So as they wolves breed and their numbers expand the range can only support so many animals. Therefore the extras seek new ground. This might explain the increase of them all across the border states. I say this because we have become a ideal habitat over here and nothing has changed in the landscape I can see.
When I went to the wolf meeting here in Spokane last week Carter Neihmeyer made a statement: Wolves are here and they are coming your way! Which as I see it means they are going to deplete the food base over here and then they will seek a new source! So get ready your gonna get them!!
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 23, 2013, 06:32:34 PM
The wolves shouldn't have any problems on the westside. They used to be widespread across the peninsula and had no problems hunting. Most of the early forest reserve rangers back before extirpation were hired on for predator hunting. But back then a good portion of winter range wasn't densely settled (except Queets/Hoh homesteads--now taken by the park) and not much logging impact. Now days, the mountains are surrounded by homes/farms or land that has been logged a few times. I think the mix of clearcuts and heavy brush will work out well for wolves.One thing I'm not sure of is how effectively wolves can hunt in the brushy terrain we have here in western Washington. Sure they will get all the elk with hoof rot, but after that, how long will the wolves last? Or will they even be able to establish themselves over here at all? Will it only be in the high country? How will they do in the lowlands around Puget Sound?
Bobcat are you serious! Do you realize just how brushy it is in Northern Idaho and Eastern Washington.
The wolves will last just as the coyotes have adapted to almost every state in the union. If there is any type of food base they will establish them selves. If you follow any of the post about them on this side, Just look at Bone's post some of his photos are in open sage!
One of the Farmers in the Wedge's calving pens are just outside of his Kitchen window. So once they overcome the fear of surroundings they will be right in your backyard.
Post by: Mudman on January 23, 2013, 06:48:52 PM
Post by: Knocker of rocks on January 23, 2013, 06:57:27 PM
Bobcat I have a neat neighbor. He is 90 and was a boy when his Pappy was logging Capitol forest. He has some great story's. Anyway he has told me about the Timber wolves that ran up there and how different they are from the greys in Montana where he lived as well.
How so? Old guys are cool
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on January 23, 2013, 07:01:07 PM
Sitka, I'm just basing that on reports from other states like Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho. I don't believe they've had much luck controlling wolf numbers by hunting. Have you heard different?
Well my buddy in Lewiston said the late whitetail hunting was spectacular with some real trophies taken and he hunted the late muzzle loader season for elk in unit 14 and one other which I can't remember and he said it was the most elk he's seen in years and years. His opinion was that wolf hunting was doing what it's supposed to do, trimming them to a manageable number.
Not sure about Montana, but my uncle's group was 6 for 6 on elk out of Townsend. Haven't heard any wolf reports from there.
Post by: Mudman on January 23, 2013, 07:03:40 PM
Post by: bearpaw on January 23, 2013, 07:07:45 PM
Post by: HORSEPOWER on January 23, 2013, 07:17:04 PM
Post by: Ridgeratt on January 23, 2013, 07:20:48 PM
Post by: splitshot on January 23, 2013, 07:42:16 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 23, 2013, 07:51:26 PM
How well is that working?
Post by: Wenatcheejay on January 23, 2013, 07:53:17 PM
Post by: Ridgeratt on January 23, 2013, 08:00:35 PM
Coyotes are hunted with no limits, and no closed season.
How well is that working?
My point exactly!! Once we get them we will never get rid of them!! They will adapt to the surroundings. Just look at the other states that hunt them now. They can't meet the quota's they set now!!
You are going to get them!!! Regardless of the emotion you feel about not having them.
Post by: kentrek on January 23, 2013, 08:21:04 PM
I've talked to several outfitters recently in the more wolf infested areas, there are almost no elk, many quit offering elk hunts or have reduced down to single digit number of hunters due to a lack of elk. Only half as many outfitters total in idaho as there was 5 years ago in Idaho, in many cases due to wolves.
we ran into more outfitters after wolfs then elk..not sure how much longer they will be in business :dunno:
i think the only thing wolf huntng will do is put alot more fear in the wolfs, pushing them into the deep counrty away from people
seems to be alot more animals with in the first 20 miles of "idaho towns" then way way out in the boonies..could explain why hunting has improved for sum
hunters will adapt and so will the animals,the hunting world is not coming to an end cuz of the wolf :tup:
also the only realistic way for wolfs to be gone is for the gov to want them to be gone
Post by: Special T on January 23, 2013, 08:47:42 PM
Some say that hunting will NOT solve the problem... Maybe BUT WY has not capitulated like ALL of the tother states and will NOT have the problems that we will have. :twocents:
Post by: AspenBud on January 23, 2013, 09:15:26 PM
Coyotes are hunted with no limits, and no closed season.
How well is that working?
My point exactly!! Once we get them we will never get rid of them!! They will adapt to the surroundings. Just look at the other states that hunt them now. They can't meet the quota's they set now!!
You are going to get them!!! Regardless of the emotion you feel about not having them.
Is it that wolves are that smart? Or have hunters in the areas that aren't meeting their quotas been more successful than anyone realizes?
Comparing coyote hunting and wolf hunting is like comparing apples and oranges. Piles of yotes get shot every year. Wolves apparently not so much, or easily, so far.
Post by: Ridgeratt on January 23, 2013, 09:18:49 PM
Coyotes are hunted with no limits, and no closed season.
How well is that working?
My point exactly!! Once we get them we will never get rid of them!! They will adapt to the surroundings. Just look at the other states that hunt them now. They can't meet the quota's they set now!!
You are going to get them!!! Regardless of the emotion you feel about not having them.
Is it that wolves are that smart? Or have hunters in the areas that aren't meeting their quotas been more successful than anyone realizes?
Comparing coyote hunting and wolf hunting is like comparing apples and oranges. Piles of yotes get shot every year. Wolves apparently not so much, or easily, so far.
yes but they haven't been eradicated yet either!! Wolves will be even worse than yotes.
Post by: bobcat on January 23, 2013, 09:19:59 PM
The point is, predators in general are just tough to hunt.
When wolves originally were eradicated from this state, it sure wasn't done by "fair chase" hunting methods.
Post by: Ridgeratt on January 23, 2013, 09:22:02 PM
Post by: bobcat on January 23, 2013, 09:26:28 PM
Post by: 6x6in6 on January 23, 2013, 09:33:22 PM
Our beloved WDFW will be controlling wolves. And until the WDFW can get a grasp on how many packs we truly have, there is no "we" control.
Unfortunately and yet probably, we will be in a situation similar to the coyote (apple) whereas the wolf (orange) may be a year around season by the time the bunnie huggers get thru suing the WDFW to stop wolf hunts. :bash:
Post by: Stalker on January 23, 2013, 09:41:49 PM
I have nothing against wolves and understand their position in natures balancing act. My issue with wolf management in Western States is with the so called experts and human manipulation of this issue. There are various agendas at work behind the scenes that the average American is not privy to / nor willing to do the required research to become informed of so when the issue gets to the public forum they are spoon fed emotional points meant to elicit a specific response / vote and I do not believe this best serves the greater populace of our country / western states. I would further submit that the native communities allowing hunting / harvesting of these animals on their lands will provide the “Wolf Supporting” community with a defense to use against the rest of the State against opening wolf hunting / management due to possible lack of records keeping. I say this because we as hunters / fishing persons normally argue that the tribes do not maintain / report accurate harvest numbers; so I believe this will be used as an argument to work against the sportsman in statewide harvest numbers / records. After all how can we say that the numbers provided in harvesting wolves is accurate and then say we have questions about other reported / unreported harvests???
Hunters have spent “Hundreds of Millions to Billions” in the true conservation of animals in North America over the past century + and our voices have been shut out of this issue and unfortunately I do not see us gaining in this area; unfortunate. Again this is one person’s opinion / thoughts.
Post by: Jingles on January 23, 2013, 09:46:18 PM
Post by: elkfins on January 24, 2013, 02:53:32 PM
While hunting alone will not necessarily control the wolf population, it will be a great first step in managing the wolves and thier behavior.
I am hearing and reading many accounts of wolf encounters where the people are stating that the wolves acted as if they had little or no fear of the humans. And at this point, why should they? For the most part, the wolves in our state haven't been shot at or had members of thier pack killed by a human. Once we can kill them, the remaining wolves in the area will learn to become fearful of humans and hopefully, they will modify thier habits to avoid humans as much as possible.
Consider this theory (I'm not saying this is what occurred... just a potential theory). Locals in the Methow were accused of killing off the pack of wolves there. I have yet to see any proof that the pack was indeed wiped out but there are plenty of rumors and accusations. Perhaps some locals killed a few of the wolves (there seems to be some evidence of this)... Shortly thereafter, we have a pack in the Teanaway not far south, there are sightings in Skagit valley, not far west and continue to be sightings in the Methow but not in the numbers before the pack was "killed off". Maybe it's possible that the shooting of a few wolves, habituated the remaining wolves to fear the humans in that area and the pack dispersed or just moved on in an attempt to avoid contact with those humans that were targeting them.
I'm willing to bet that if the McIrvins ranch hands were able to shoot wolves on site if they were anywhere near the ranging cattle (as opposed to having to catch them in the act), there would be less cattle lost to wolves and the WDFW wouldn't have had to spend thousands of dollars killing off the Wedge pack.
There is more to managing predators and game than just killing a certain percentage of the population. Habituating the remaining population needs to be a key goal in the control of the species. Canines are smart animals... they will learn the lessons we teach them. The key is to teach them the lessons we want them to learn. The ability to hunt and kill them is a key tool to accomplish this goal.