Post by: deadwoodbuck on January 23, 2013, 10:23:12 AM
Post by: h20hunter on January 23, 2013, 10:25:55 AM
Older with Alaskan bulkhead and a solid engine would be a solid puget sound boat. Had a buddy that ownded one for some years and we covered a lot of water in that boat. There are a lot of them out there and with a little shopping you should be able to find a good one without a ton of investment.
Post by: Kc_Kracker on January 23, 2013, 10:28:05 AM
Open bow runabout......mass produced garbage.word for word truth, ive owned about ten of them :tup:
Older with Alaskan bulkhead and a solid engine would be a solid puget sound boat. Had a buddy that ownded one for some years and we covered a lot of water in that boat. There are a lot of them out there and with a little shopping you should be able to find a good one without a ton of investment.
Post by: Mudman on January 23, 2013, 10:39:25 AM
Post by: magnanimous_j on January 23, 2013, 10:50:56 AM
I don’t know how many amenities you are looking for in a 20’, but C-Dory and Grady both make little cabin cruisers in that range. Those are both recommended as Puget Sound boats.
Post by: Skillet on January 23, 2013, 10:59:42 AM
Quick reference of things to stay away from if you are not knowledgeable in the upkeep of these specific systems-
OMC inboard/outboards.
Force outboards (May the Force be with you, not behind you).
They are all money pits! :twocents:B bust O out A another T thousand$,
True dat.
Post by: gottatree on January 23, 2013, 11:01:22 AM
Post by: wildmanoutdoors on January 23, 2013, 11:04:14 AM
Its up to the buyer who specs the boat when brand new to get solid components like engines and such. If you get a Force engine you will be worse off than if you sprang for the Merc.
If you get the King trailer as opposed to the Shorelander youll likely be doing bearings and such on the side of the road.
There a decent hull, there are worse and much better. There made with a chopper gun instead of laminate fiberglass construction. They will punture easier than a laminated hull for sure. But if you get one with a good engine and such you will be fine.
Trick is to find one with good components. I dont know anything about inboards except they are less reliable, more maint, and wear quicker...IMO
Post by: lokidog on January 23, 2013, 11:06:59 AM
I have a Bayliner Trophy 21 walk-around cuddy cabin with an outboard. The original Force engines were garbage. They are not a high end boat, they are tough to work on (steering cable, fish well pumps, washdown pump, etc.). If you can deal with that stuff, they are priced better than some others. Given that, I have never felt unsafe in mine
A neighbor bought a Tomcat 26, nice boat but spendy.
Hydraulic steering is a plus.
My Trophy has not been in the water in over 9 months, my 19' Alumaweld is my go to boat. If buying new, I would seriously look at the Hewescraft 20, I think Hewes makes a stronger more durable boat and has higher sides. Hardtop is better than soft top but more $$. Better fuel economy and less maintenance than fiberglass easier to work on as well. One negative to the "smaller" <24' aluminum boats is that most don't have a self-draining deck, meaning the deck drains into the bilge. This is a negative in my book, but not a deal breaker.
Hope this helps.
Post by: Heredoggydoggy on January 23, 2013, 11:15:07 AM
With the economy in the toilet, you should be able to get a nice 1 or 2 year old boat for a very reasonable price, if you aren't in a hurry. Everything posted so far is TRUE! :chuckle:
Post by: robodad on January 23, 2013, 11:16:06 AM
I wouldn't recommend buying one nor will I ever own another, there are much better boats out there IMO !!
Post by: MADMAX on January 23, 2013, 11:17:06 AM
Post by: lokidog on January 23, 2013, 11:43:52 AM
I had a 20' Bayliner trophy several years ago and I'm glad I got rid if it, It was way underpowered with the AQ125 and the only boat I have ever gotten close to puking in. They are really top heavy and pitch and roll much more then other boats I have had and it just could hardly get itself up on plane with 3 guys in it, also the back deck was extremely small, and the side rails were short so it felt like you could go overboard fairly easily (I built a rail around mine).
I wouldn't recommend buying one nor will I ever own another, there are much better boats out there IMO !!
That's funny, I have a yamaha 150 saltwater series on mine and feel like it is overpowered. The top heaviness maybe depends on the cabin style as well, mine doesn't seem too bad to me.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 23, 2013, 11:49:04 AM
There is a 20' Boston Whaler Outrage, stripped down to nothing, just a hull on Craigslist right now for $1,500. Be a sweet project.
The downside to Grady White, Boston Whalers and others is that they are HEAVY. Hand laid glass weights a bundle. Again, time to pull out your $$$ and put an even BIGGER $$$ motor on the back which also means $$$ at the pumps.
For a Bayliner with a 150HP motor, jump to a Grady or BW and you'll need 250HP for the same sized boat to achieve same speed and you won't get the economy. You'll have thicker fiberglass under your feet if it makes you feel better about hitting that reef on your way out fishing...lol..
Post by: lokidog on January 23, 2013, 11:59:30 AM
Post by: Russ McDonald on January 23, 2013, 12:11:45 PM
Post by: deadwoodbuck on January 23, 2013, 02:33:00 PM
Post by: h20hunter on January 23, 2013, 02:34:10 PM
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/3549015633.html (http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/3549015633.html)
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 23, 2013, 03:32:56 PM
here you go....plenty like this:
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/3549015633.html (http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/3549015633.html)
I've eyeballed that one a few times. Nice set up for fish/cruise/camp.
Post by: h20hunter on January 23, 2013, 03:33:55 PM
Post by: lokidog on January 23, 2013, 04:55:05 PM
Post by: deadwoodbuck on January 24, 2013, 08:44:57 AM
Post by: Cylvertip on February 01, 2013, 10:06:45 AM
I can tell you this. From the end of the 90's through at least the mid 2000's, bang for your buck on a lot of the Bayliner, Maxum, and Trophy product was better than the competition. Because of the huge boom in boating from the mid to late 80's into the 90's, boats during those times from a lot of manufactures were shoved through the factories as fast as possible. No one could build them fast enough to meet demand, and corners were cut. Bayliners brand reputation took a huge hit because of it. They weren't the only one doing it, but they were the biggest. To bring the brand image back, construction practices, cosmetics and a lot of components on the product from at least 99 through 2007ish or better, had to be to par with the more premium brands just to be considered entry or mid level product. So $ for $, you were getting a better deal on a Maxum than a comparable Cobalt or Searay, or on a Bayliner vs Searay, etc. The brand name was tarnished, so to compete the boats had to be better and sell for less. If you look at things like JD Power, you will see that, as someone else had stated, Bayliners and Maxums would get pummeled for their crappy motors, while Searay, Cobalt, or other "higher end" brands would get raving reviews. This was complete crap, because they were the same damn Merc motors. JD power will elevate a companies standing based on how much that company is willing to pay to look good - FYI. And if you ponied up and overpaid high dollar for something, are you going to complain about that product? or are you more likely to complain about the more reasonable priced product that is basically the same. Remember this is the general public we are talking about here, so image can fog perception. Side by side: chevy vs cady, ford vs lincoln, toyota vs lexus, which one is more likely to get the pass on the same issue and which is going to get dinged, again when looking at this via public perception?
I can say all of this because I was a Project Manager in Engineering & Product Development there from 99 through late 2004 on Runabouts. I know what we put in to the product vs what our competition was doing. Things that they could get away with, there was no way we could do because of brand perception. I know similar considerations were done on Trophy's and Cruisers. We routinely brought in boats that had the highest ratings in the category and ran them. Few, very few, compared apples to apples on ride quality compared to our models. Some of the competition's boats didn't make it through the first 10 hours of what we ran as normal testing on all of our product before they were unusable. Our boats would run the entire 50 to 100 hour test cycle ( or more) and then be put into our employee boat use program for a few years. After all that they would be gone through, the cosmetic's of 2 to three years of hard use would be fixed, and they would be processed through Olympic with full warranties. Olympic paid about 25% of market value for those boats but would turn them as "Engineering" boats and sell them for 85-90% market value.
There were even collaborations with Searay on product because they were a sister company and it was dictated form on high that we would share some components as there was some factory consolidation that may be possible ( Searay absorbed Bayliner {US MARINE} when the economy took the big dump - Both companies and many more are owned by Brunswick) The first foray into this was a 17ft runabout that we were to use this "great running" Searay hull for. We felt however, that their hull's running characteristics were not all that great. by working with balancing the upper level components on our model, we ended up with a noticeably nicer running boat than theirs with their hull.
Are Bayliners, Maxums, Trophy's perfect - hell no. But compared to similar product, at least during the time frame I was there, I know they were built as well if not better than the competition - apples to apples.
Post by: magnanimous_j on February 01, 2013, 10:10:47 AM
Depends on the year, how it was maintained, and how it was powered.
I can tell you this. From the end of the 90's through at least the mid 2000's, bang for your buck on a lot of the Bayliner, Maxum, and Trophy product was better than the competition. Because of the huge boom in boating from the late mid to late 80's into the 90's, boats during those times from a lot of manufactures were shoved through the factories as fast as possible. No one could build them fast enough to meet demand, and corners were cut. Bayliners brand reputation took a huge hit because of it. They weren't the only one doing it, but they were the biggest. To bring the brand image back, construction practices, cosmetics and a lot of components on the product from at least 99 through 2007ish or better, had to be to par with the more premium brands just to be considered entry or mid level product. So $ for $, you were getting a better deal on a Maxum than a comparable Cobalt or Searay, or on a Bayliner vs Searay, etc. The brand name was tarnished, so to compete the boats had to be better and sell for less. If you look at things like JD Power, you will see that, as someone else had stated, Bayliners and Maxums would get pummeled for their crappy motors, while Searay, Cobalt, or other "higher end" brands would get raving reviews. This was complete crap, because they were the same damn Merc motors. JD power will elevate a companies standing based on how much that company is willing to pay to look good - FYI. And if you ponied up and overpaid high dollar for something, are you going to complain about that product? or are you more likely to complain about the more reasonable priced product that is basically the same. Remember this is the general public we are talking about here, so image can fog perception. Side by side: chevy vs cady, ford vs lincoln, toyota vs lexus, which one is more likely to get the pass on the same issue and which is going to get dinged, again when looking at this via public perception?
I can say all of this because I was a Project Manager in Engineering & Product Development there from 99 through late 2004 on Runabouts. I know what we put in to the product vs what our competition was doing. Things that they could get away with, there was no way we could do because of brand perception. I know similar considerations were done on Trophy's and Cruisers. We routinely brought in boats that had the highest ratings in the category and ran them. Few, very few, compared apples to apples on ride quality compared to our models. Some of the competition's boats didn't make it through the first 10 hours of what we ran as normal testing on all of our product before they were unusable. Our boats would run the entire 50 to 100 hour test cycle ( or more) and then be put into our employee boat use program for a few years. After all that they would be gone through, the cosmetic's of 2 to three years of hard use would be fixed, and they would be processed through Olympic with full warranties. Olympic paid about 25% of market value for those boats but would turn them as "Engineering" boats and sell them for 85-90% market value.
There were even collaborations with Searay on product because they were a sister company and it was dictated form on high that we would share some components as there was some factory consolidation that may be possible ( Searay absorbed Bayliner {US MARINE} when the economy took the big dump - Both companies and many more are owned by Brunswick) The first foray into this was a 17ft runabout that we were to use this "great running" Searay hull for. We felt however, that their hull's running characteristics were not all that great. by working with balancing the upper level components on our model, we ended up with a noticeably nicer running boat than theirs with their hull.
Are Bayliners, Maxums, Trophy's perfect - hell no. But compared to similar product, at least during the time frame I was there, I know they were built as well if not better than the competition - apples to apples.
What years of Bayliner would you recommend?
Post by: Heredoggydoggy on February 01, 2013, 10:22:23 AM
Remember this is the general public we are talking about here, so image can fog perception. Side by side: chevy vs cady, ford vs lincoln, toyota vs lexus, which one is more likely to get the pass on the same issue and which is going to get dinged, again when looking at this via public perception?
:yeah: I remember when Toyota first started importing pickups to the US. They had a row of spot welds around the wheel wells of the truck beds that they just painted over. They didn't even make an attempt to fill them in. I said to myself then: "Boy, if an American manufacturer did that, nobody would buy one." Yet those Toyotas were selling like hotcakes! :dunno:
Post by: JohnVH on February 01, 2013, 10:38:05 AM
Used to take it all over, crabbing, lings, etc.
swivel seats from cabelas
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjohnvh.smugmug.com%2Fphotos%2Fi-s4RtCFL%2F0%2FO%2Fi-s4RtCFL.jpg&hash=cce02ee28f27b0a82c1ebe7dfb90af7649124a8b)
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on February 01, 2013, 10:53:47 AM
Like a Big Mac, it fills a need at a very low cost compared to better options.
Post by: Cylvertip on February 01, 2013, 12:37:57 PM
It was all top secret at the time - cause it was originally build exclusively in Reynosa Mexico, just across the border from McCallen Tx. The area down there had a very skilled work force that was used to working in the electronics industry, along with I think CAT, VW, and some other big names. They had great quality because of it. There were a lot of US folks working in the plant then too. We kept it all under wraps up until we had them ready to ship inventory to dealers. Irvin Jacobs of Genmar ( Brunswick Boat Groups big rival in Pleasure boats at the time - he was the President - and a d-bag - each had like 20 to 30 or more brands under their umbrella) was pissed when we launched it. None of us were real happy about production efforts happening in Mexico, but at the time it did not hamper anything that was happening state side - we increased overall sales so everyone was running at pretty much capacity and then some. When the econ tanked, all bets were off though. Like I said, Searay absorbed the product line into their plants except for Reynosa - it is still running with Bayliner and Searay product coming out of it now.
Irwin Jacobs came up with the FLW bass tour - It is pretty much all Ranger boats - Take a wild guess who owned ranger boats. There are a couple of other brands now, but they are all affiliated. It's a big tournament group and Walmart is right there in the middle of it, but it is not open to just anyone that wants to try - you don't own one of their brands, you ain't in. It would be like NASCAR only allowing use of a specific car brand - Like government motors products, and nothing else. Or if you did compete with another brand, and you won, you were only eligible to take a much smaller portion of the purse.
Post by: Cylvertip on February 01, 2013, 12:58:29 PM
[/quote] What years of Bayliner would you recommend?
[/quote]
I know probably starting in 2000 or 2001, so the 2001 or 2002 models, they have xcel 40 year pressure treated plywood though out. Before that all the wood was resin coated, so it was protected, but even better after that. I know the Trophys went to fiberglass stringers in some of their models not too long after, but that was for more of a perception thing and possibly weight savings, than strength and durability -which are about the same after installation .
Post by: deadwoodbuck on February 05, 2013, 09:05:08 AM
Post by: Cylvertip on February 05, 2013, 11:34:25 AM