Hunting Washington Forum

Other Hunting => Bird Dogs => Topic started by: wonder on January 30, 2013, 12:57:46 PM

Title: The Chicken or the Egg?
Post by: wonder on January 30, 2013, 12:57:46 PM: It appears that having chickens in the yard (fenced pen) has tainted my young lab pup. He has somehow managed to get into the pen and had an occasional bird fly out and get roughed up too resulting in the death of at least 4 chickens. So, over the course of several months and after some increased reprimands (my fault) he doesn't seem interested in wild birds either?

Took him out last weekend to hunt at Cooke Canyon Hunting Club in Ellensburg hunting pen pheasants and it wasn't a good hunt for him at all. I owe this to my fault. He had multiple opportunities to get after multiple hens but seems as though he thinks he's going to get in trouble if he gets after them. More than likely he associates the chickens to these pheasants? Anyone have any advice other than the obvious to get rid of the stupid chickens to get him excited about chasing/hunting birds again?
Title: Re: The Chicken or the Egg?
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 30, 2013, 01:07:48 PM: Build a chicken pen the dog can't get into and he'll lose interest in them. I have kill pigeons, ducks, homing pigeons and chukar all within visibility of my dogs and they've never killed a bird. Had about 300+ total birds here last summer. My dogs never killed one which was in it's pen where it was supposed to be.
Title: Re: The Chicken or the Egg?
Post by: CoryTDF on January 30, 2013, 01:13:22 PM: Training, Training, Training...... in the field hunting is not the place to try and learn and fix your dogs bad habits. If you train your dog often you should know what needs work and develop a plan to fix it BEFORE you go hunting. I have this talk with people all the time. While hunting is NOT the place to train your dog. Retrievers have certain instincts that drive them to do certain things but NO dog can just hunt and behave without some type of training. The level to which you train your dog is up to you but either way if you had been training you would have had an idea that this was going to happen when you took him to the field. Working dogs is like making a fire you start small and build up. If you have created a negative association with birds by punishing your dog for doing what his instincts tell him to do then you need to find a way to reverse that. Try using dead birds and working with positive reinforcement. I am self taught and went 5 of 6 senior AKC tests with my Lab last year. I am no expert but She is now a AKC titled Senior Hunter. I train 5 days a week all year. When hunting season starts I pretty much quit. There are two many uncontrolled situations and no real corrections for me to make. I spend the next month cleaning up any bad habits that she picked up in the season. Training is key! PM me I'll give ya my number and I can tell you a few things to try if you would like.
Title: Re: The Chicken or the Egg?
Post by: Stilly bay on January 30, 2013, 01:18:43 PM: find couple dog owners with dogs that have a super high prey drive. or couple more birdy labs. let them hang out and make friends... and release the chickens. clip their wings so they can't fly ( some chickens can fly a little bit). while the other dogs run down this chicken its going to look like so much fun your dog will not be able to resist. the chicken will squawk and drop feathers and it will terribly exciting . the whole time you must offer encouragement and praise to your dog. a few sessions and he will have his mojo back.

in the mean time get rid of the chickens or build a poultry fort knox... at the very least, from then on if you BIRD dog kills a BIrd don't punish him.
Title: Re: The Chicken or the Egg?
Post by: CoryTDF on January 30, 2013, 01:22:57 PM: Quote from: Stilly bay on January 30, 2013, 01:18:43 PM
find couple dog owners with dogs that have a super high prey drive. or couple more birdy labs. let them hang out and make friends... and release the chickens. clip their wings so they can't fly ( some chickens can fly a little bit). while the other dogs run down this chicken its going to look like so much fun your dog will not be able to resist. the chicken will squawk and drop feathers and it will terribly exciting . the whole time you must offer encouragement and praise to your dog. a few sessions and he will have his mojo back.

in the mean time get rid of the chickens or build a poultry fort knox... at the very least, from then on if you BIRD dog kills a BIrd don't punish him.

Better off not to use chickens. It's not hard to find pheasents or ducks if you do a google search. pigeons work great too and they are soooooooooo easy to catchP
Title: Re: The Chicken or the Egg?
Post by: Stilly bay on January 30, 2013, 01:49:55 PM: I think chickens are the answer. they got him in trouble in the first place. they can't fly, they can barely out run a dog and they make a hell of a lot of noise which will excite the dog.
pigeons, pheasants, and chukar just kinda give up when they get caught, this dog needs to see a spectacle :twocents: and feel some fight to get his prey drive juices flowing.
Title: Re: The Chicken or the Egg?
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 30, 2013, 01:56:37 PM: I train with chickens fairly regularly. Banty roosters are the only domestic bird that carries a game bird scent. Get a few banties and keep in your coop. They are one of the best ways to bold up a young retriever.
Title: Re: The Chicken or the Egg?
Post by: lokidog on January 30, 2013, 02:05:09 PM: My dogs have always known the chickens were off limits (free range during the day) but had no problems chasing down birds while hunting. I am still working on the pup to remind her that the chickens are not fair game but am not worried about her not being interested in game birds.

I think calm training around the chickens would be better than getting excited and then disciplining. :twocents:
Title: Re: The Chicken or the Egg?
Post by: Stilly bay on January 30, 2013, 02:06:24 PM: Quote from: Happy Gilmore on January 30, 2013, 01:56:37 PM
Banty roosters are the only domestic bird that carries a game bird scent.

I did not know this... what benefit would bantys have to training pointing breeds? I have used guinea hens in the past for training because they will run forever and act like a pheasant on steroids but never a banty.
Title: Re: The Chicken or the Egg?
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 30, 2013, 02:40:07 PM: Quote from: Stilly bay on January 30, 2013, 02:06:24 PM
Quote from: Happy Gilmore on January 30, 2013, 01:56:37 PM
Banty roosters are the only domestic bird that carries a game bird scent.

I did not know this... what benefit would bantys have to training pointing breeds? I have used guinea hens in the past for training because they will run forever and act like a pheasant on steroids but never a banty.

Banty's scream, howl, yelp and make a commotion that is irresistable to many dogs depending upon where you're at in training. Not sure about using them for pointing other than they are durable and can take alot of abuse and live.
Title: Re: The Chicken or the Egg?
Post by: huntingfool7 on January 30, 2013, 03:06:04 PM: I really dislike the idea of using chickens to train dogs. As stated in another thread, I've had a dog come home full of shot for killing/chasing a neighbors chickens. Livestock killers are fair game and legal targets. Why WhY WHY would you want to encourage that?

That said, I have chickens and pigeons. The dogs leave the chickens alone. The pigeons are fair game. If they catch a pigeon on the ground, I treat it as a retrieve. My springers have soft mouths and I just put the bird back in the pen. I'm assuming yours will kill them, just right it off as a loss (don't punish) and use the dead bird for traing.

I think you should invest in some homing pigeons and build a loft. Start training with them. You already have a bird killer, getting him excited about pigeons should be easy. Then I would invest in some chukar and pheasants to work with.

You don't actually say whether your dog is leaving the chickens alone at this point. Can you clarify this?
Title: Re: The Chicken or the Egg?
Post by: Stilly bay on January 30, 2013, 03:20:14 PM: Quote from: huntingfool7 on January 30, 2013, 03:06:04 PM
I really dislike the idea of using chickens to train dogs. As stated in another thread, I've had a dog come home full of shot for killing/chasing a neighbors chickens. Livestock killers are fair game and legal targets. Why WhY WHY would you want to encourage that?

a lot of times when trying to fix a problem dog there is a trade off, meaning you might teach an undesirable trait to overcome an even more undesirable trait. chances are this dog will have a hard mouth and continue to be chicken killer if things work out, but he will also be interested in game birds again.

WHy why why would you not have control of your dog? and why would you not make sure he was confined when he wasn't under your control? if you know your dog will attack livestock why allow him the opportunity?
Title: Re: The Chicken or the Egg?
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 30, 2013, 04:45:45 PM: I got a couple Banty's a few years back. They were from my Mom's neighbor. She had been getting irate because his chickens would cross the street and tear apart her rose garden digging for grubs. Cut my dog loose and she rounded up a couple of them and took them home in a spare dog crate.

It's great fun and excellent training. Didn't hunt over many dogs in South Dakota that could stay on a phesant track better than my Chessie. After pointer hunt tests she rounds up chukar at the end of the day. Her best was 9 live birds in less than 15 minutes. I think Richard(Bluemoon) was here but, nobody wanted to put any money down their dogs could bring back as many live birds in the same time frame.

Can't figure out why nobody wanted to play with me?
Title: Re: The Chicken or the Egg?
Post by: wonder on January 31, 2013, 07:59:36 AM: Thanks for the great constructive feedback. My better half has insisted on having these birds in the yard which have caused more problems than their worth. Yes, pen needs to be built like a fort. Problem was, I told her if she wants to have these critters then she needs to house them. She doesn't build a very good fort. Still working on that project. As for the pup running chickens down lately, not really. Only have 4 hens left and the last time they got out I was able to put them back in right away and shore up the fence. To answer one of the questions from above, yes I have been training him before season with basic commands and retrieving decoys scented with quail and pheasant juice which was all I had at the time. Apparently I hadn't worked him enough. I agree that I need more time in training to make him want to go after birds. Maybe I was just too optimistic before going out last week. Realize now that the problem is me. Appreciate the tips on how to get him back on track.
Title: Re: The Chicken or the Egg?
Post by: huntingfool7 on January 31, 2013, 09:21:08 AM: Quote from: Happy Gilmore on January 30, 2013, 04:45:45 PM
I got a couple Banty's a few years back. They were from my Mom's neighbor. She had been getting irate because his chickens would cross the street and tear apart her rose garden digging for grubs. Cut my dog loose and she rounded up a couple of them and took them home in a spare dog crate.

It's great fun and excellent training. Didn't hunt over many dogs in South Dakota that could stay on a phesant track better than my Chessie. After pointer hunt tests she rounds up chukar at the end of the day. Her best was 9 live birds in less than 15 minutes. I think Richard(Bluemoon) was here but, nobody wanted to put any money down their dogs could bring back as many live birds in the same time frame.

Can't figure out why nobody wanted to play with me?

I get that chickens might be a cure for some things. The highlighted comment points out my objection to this. It may be great fun for the dog and you might think it's hysterical but you are opening a can of worms that could result in someone legally and rightfully shooting your dog.

If you ever spend time around farms, if the neighbors have chickens, or if you lose your dog in the field and he happens upon someplace that has chickens he may never find his way home. I would hate to have my dog shot because of something I trained it to do.

I don't even know what to say about thieving the neighbors chickens. I don't think I would have posted that.

Livestock killing dog = deer running feral mutt...both are a shooting offence.

Wonder- Work the dog on leash around the chickens. Tell him to "leave it" when he shows an interest in them. Get some pigeons/chukar/pheasants and start working him with good birds.
He's a young dog, I think you can get him on track.
Title: Re: The Chicken or the Egg?
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 31, 2013, 09:56:27 AM: You missed the part where they crossed the street and were damaging my Mom's rose gardens. She has about 100 different varieties each of which cost a lot more than two or three chickens combined.

Like I said before, at your own house I'd improve the chicken facility. If you've hammered on your dog to avoid birds, they'll avoid birds. You want to keep hammering him on avoiding birds you can wait until you get your next dog to hope he's a good hunter and you don't let chickens control how good your dog turns out.
Title: Re: The Chicken or the Egg?
Post by: wonder on January 31, 2013, 11:45:53 AM: Thanks again for the good advice. I have some wings from the last hunt that I'm working with him on and I agree that he is still saveable because he's so young. He needs more positive influence (other good dogs) which I don't have access to as well as some firm but positive feedback from me.

I'll keep at it and know that it's something that takes time to nurture. I've seen a few dogs grow up that one year the owner wants to shoot the dog and the next year he's saying "who's dog is that!"

Take care and much appreciated!