Post by: Sabotloader on February 05, 2013, 05:11:38 PM
Here are a couple pics of the Lehigh/Bloodline bullet.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2F230FTa.jpg&hash=91b7c15647dbabd15c5b9b8b266eeed55217d4a4)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2F230FT.jpg&hash=b4999f4845c05992009c76e09d6a749ef80ab4bc)
Probably should mention that Grouse was the big push in the development of this bullet... His request for a heavier-longer bullet with a higher BC lead Lehigh Dave to this design.
Those of us that have had some prototyes of this bullets have found that it does take a fast twist bore to stabilize the bullet. Thus the driving force and move to find some of the older Knight Original DISC 45's that were built with a 1-20 twist in the bore. The are other older 45 cal rifles out there with the rate of twist also, just do not remember which ones they were.
While the 1-20 of the past had a problem shooting the more modern bullets accurately, the new sabots with the new formulation of stronger polymers are able to handle the twist more effectively.
I have shot these bullets in a 1-20 Knight and 1-20 White Whitetail and my last shooting trip was with my 50 cal Mountaineer. The bullet shot very well from these bores.
I also had to prove to myself that it would not shoot from a 1-30 DISC 45. That was pretty much a tumbling act and a failure...
Today I had one more thing that I had to prove to myself... will it shoot from a 1-28. I think I was told that it would not but I really wanted to try for myself. I took a Knight DISC Elite 50 cal and headed to the farm. I really was not expecting much but I had to try.
One other problem... I was not sure this rifle was totally sighted in. I have not shot this particular rifle in years so I was really unsure about it. It is kinda a backup rifle that I have not used. I remember removing a Nikon Omega and installing a Bushnell Elite but could not remember if I did anything but bore sight it.
Got to the farm set up a shooting course starting with targets at 75 yard and out to 100 yards...
This is a picture of the beginning set up...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FShootComposite-5.jpg&hash=22c186f6adf8fdbfa749a73375a30378ef72967a)
All-in-all... I am pretty pleased with the results... I decided to shoot 110 grains of T7 figuring that lowering the velocity might induce tumbling in the 1-28 bore. If would shoot with a 110 - then I would also no that it would shoot with my normal 120 grain load. One thing the faster the velocity, the better chance for stabilization. Grouse and other that are using BH are really making it jump out of the barrel.
Today's paper target - but shooting the bird was a whole lot more fun!!! Shot #3 on the 100 yard paper was totally my fault... I hurried the shot and new just as the gun went off...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FTargets%2F2-5Shoot.jpg&hash=420ac4675843d7fe2687f38422c1a60ee510944a)
Post by: CoyoteChuck52 on February 05, 2013, 08:01:52 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on February 05, 2013, 08:58:23 PM
Boy I would like to see Knight offer a Disc Extreme .45 cal 1-20 twist, fluted ,stainless...I would be all over one and these bullets
I am hoping for a fast twist 45...
Post by: Sabotloader on February 06, 2013, 08:28:27 AM
I think it is important to note and I am creating a term that I do not know if it is correct.... but I believe the 1-28 is the Break-Over Twist... for the most part it will stabilize in a 1-28 but it is marginal, to the point that a 1-29 would not work and a 1-27 might be better. Other factors are the sabot fit to the bore and the grip of the bullet to the sabot. MMP's Polymer formulation is very pliable and allows the sabot to form to the bore very well. The knurling on the bullet actually embosses the lines on the inside of the sabot. When you load a 40 call bullet in a Blue MMP it will not even load to the bottom of the sabot until you push it through the crown and down the bore. The sabot then has a full grip on the bullet.
Even the powder may be a factor. I shoot T7 that burns much faster than BH, could that be a factor getting the bullet to velocity faster in the bore than does BH?
There really is to many varibles to actually count a whole lot on a 1-28 twist... Although it may work.
Post by: kerrdog on February 06, 2013, 03:01:31 PM
I've been meaning to ask you about how you would load a 300 grain bloodline for .50 cal disk Extreme. (I'm a wet-sider going after Roosevelt Elk.) I've been using 100 grains of Triple Seven FFg. I backed it off from 110 because it seemed like my groups (if you could call them that) got smaller. I've also really been wondering about whether the first shot on a clean barrel (My barrel is really clean) tends to be a flyer and if the bore actually should to be fouled when hunting. Is it a myth?
Post by: Sabotloader on February 06, 2013, 07:53:19 PM
Hey Sabotloader,
I've been meaning to ask you about how you would load a 300 grain bloodline for .50 cal disk Extreme. (I'm a wet-sider going after Roosevelt Elk.)
I believe the 300 grain bloodline will work very well on your elk. But one thing to remember and it is important when using a bloodline you need velocity.
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I've been using 100 grains of Triple Seven FFg. I backed it off from 110 because it seemed like my groups (if you could call them that) got smaller.
100 grains of T7-2f is not a bad load at all. That load should get you about 1725 fps of velocity from a 300 grain bullet. That is easily good thru 100 yards. I shoot 120 grains in my DISC and that should give me an edge to 200 yard.
Here is a table that shows the velocities I got with the different powders.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2F50calT7vsBHVelocity-1.jpg&hash=a4e5a0546f6d05e8f53192ed06289fa1859909b1)
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I've also really been wondering about whether the first shot on a clean barrel (My barrel is really clean) tends to be a flyer and if the bore actually should to be fouled when hunting. Is it a myth?
I really do not know if you can call it a flyer but for the most part it will be out of the group an inch maybe 1 1/2" on most occasions. I alway shoot a semi-fouled barrel, but I do not live on the 'Wet Side'.
But!!!! you were talking groups here a minute ago... are you having a problem with the size of your groups? At 100 yards with factory open sights - I would think you could stay in the area of 3" off a bench, well within the 20-24" kill zone of an elk.
mike
Post by: kerrdog on February 07, 2013, 06:38:11 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on February 07, 2013, 08:01:21 PM
My groups are nowhere near that. I was grouping 4 inches at 50 yards with wild flyers. I'm an OK shot, so I was a little confused and concerned. That's when I backed off the powder a little bit and started doing a little better. I woulda stayed longer, but I ran out of 300 grain bloodlines.
OK next tell me about your rifle... Is it a new one or an older one... If it were an older one you might have a barrel to stock problem creating harmonics that change from shot to shot...
Try this if you feel inclined...
I wrote this along time ago for another guy that was having problems... I found this the hard way as a couple of my older Knights had these problems...
Rob, relieving the stickiness of that should be a really easy fix....
I wrote this up for a guy on Hunting Net the other day - i will repost it here. Look through it and see if it makes sense to you. I firmly believe the sticky stock will affect your accuracy...
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Can i get a little info on making sure i don't have any stock to barrel issues? I have seen info on tv about how a free floating barrel helps and heard of different procedures of seating the barrel. I will be putting a new stock on my gun very soon (broke the original one), and don't want to have issues there.
I can share some information with you for sure... One thing to remember 'floating' a barrel is not the best for accuracy it is the ‘cheapest’ so that is why you see many companies floating barrels. Companies can not afford to spend the time (money) bedding a barrel to the stock properly so the best thing is to 'float' them. With a wood stock the temperature of the barrel on the wood will make the POI change unless they barrel is bedded in glass or some such feature. In a composite stock if the barrel were bedded into the barrel channel correctly the heat would not be a problem but the flexion of the forearm of the inexpensive stock create a POI shift - so the answer 'float' the barrel.
In your case... since I think you said you have a Knight and if you are getting a Knight composite stock you might not have any of these problems. When I put a barreled action in a Knight stock I set the action in the stock and start the lug screw in. Tighten it with the Allen wrench until it starts to pull the action down. Then stand the gun vertically with the recoil pad on the floor. Gently, and honestly i am not that gentle, tap the gun on the floor to assure that the recoil lug is all the way back in the pocket. Then tighten the lug screw up snugly to hold it all in place. Forgot to say make sure the ram rod is not in place.
When you have the lug screw in tight place the gun in a horizontal position and squeeze the nose of the forearm and the barrel together as tight as you can. If there is no movement – you’re done the barrel is seated on and in the barrel channel. Put the ram rod in and repeat the test. If the test is the same you’re done... go shoot it and give it a check for accuracy.
If during the squeeze test (ram rod removed) the barrel moves down into the stock or the stock moves up to the barrel... release the grip and note if the barrel moves (on its own) back to the original location. Everything should be good - the barrel is floating. Next repeat the test again noting where the barrel returns to. At this time grip the barrel and the forearm of the stock and pull them apart easily. If you feel the barrel stick at some point then you have a problem. If the barrel appears to lift slightly but when you release it - it returns to the original location and you feel no points of stickiness - you are good. Put the ram rod in and repeat the test.
During the squeeze testing if you felt some stickiness in the spring of the floating barrel you will then to do some very light sanding in the barrel channel to relieve the tight spot. You might be able to locate the tight spot by running a dollar bill under the barrel and between the stock to locate the tight spot. Do not sand any more than you need, in fact in my little world the thickness of a single dollar bill is the max thickness the barrel should be off the stock. I normal use a strip of white computer paper for this test it is thinner than a dollar bill - heck it might be worth more than the dollar bill also!!!
Hope this might help you... when you get your new stock and if I can help give a shout....
mike
I am headed out to do some trap shooting this morning I will check back in this afternoon to see if you have any questions.... try to find a round dowel approximately the same diameter as the wall on the barrel channel...