Post by: danderson on February 09, 2013, 09:47:01 AM
Post by: bear hunter on February 09, 2013, 10:29:06 AM
Post by: elkboy on February 09, 2013, 10:58:05 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on February 09, 2013, 11:04:15 AM
I picked up a knight bighorn 50 cal. last year from a friend of mine, after sighting it in I never got a very good group out to 100 yards and noticed that the fiber optic front site was damaged, so I picked up a replacement site and still my groups didn't improve, now I'm thinking that I should just get a new front and rear that match, I tryed using different powers and settled on 100 grains of triple 7, and 294 grain power belts, the SST bullets didn't fly any better, I haven't shot the Barns yet herd that may be the solution, plus there a little cheaper, any suggestions ?
It might not be totally your sights. There is a possiblity it could be the way the barrel is sitting in the stock. I doubt that the barrel is floated but you can try to slide a dollar bill under the barrel and between the stock. If it slides all the way back to lug then it is floated and barrel to sock should not be a problem (remove the ram rod b4 testing).
If it does not slide back or gets stuck here and there you might have the problem. This situation could change the barrel harmonics each time you shoot, especially as the barrel heats up. Changing the barrel vibrations will move the POI.
Here is a routine that I wrote up awhile back to check a Knight stock to barrel fit...
Checking the Fit of Knight stock
Rob, relieving the stickiness of that should be a really easy fix....
I wrote this up for a guy on Hunting Net the other day - i will repost it here. Look through it and see if it makes sense to you. I firmly believe the sticky stock will affect your accuracy...
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Can i get a little info on making sure i don't have any stock to barrel issues? I have seen info on tv about how a free floating barrel helps and heard of different procedures of seating the barrel. I will be putting a new stock on my gun very soon (broke the original one), and don't want to have issues there.
I can share some information with you for sure... One thing to remember 'floating' a barrel is not the best for accuracy it is the ‘cheapest’ so that is why you see many companies floating barrels. Companies can not afford to spend the time (money) bedding a barrel to the stock properly so the best thing is to 'float' them. With a wood stock the temperature of the barrel on the wood will make the POI change unless they barrel is bedded in glass or some such feature. In a composite stock if the barrel were bedded into the barrel channel correctly the heat would not be a problem but the flexion of the forearm of the inexpensive stock create a POI shift - so the answer 'float' the barrel.
In your case... since I think you said you have a Knight and if you are getting a Knight composite stock you might not have any of these problems. When I put a barreled action in a Knight stock I set the action in the stock and start the lug screw in. Tighten it with the Allen wrench until it starts to pull the action down. Then stand the gun vertically with the recoil pad on the floor. Gently, and honestly i am not that gentle, tap the gun on the floor to assure that the recoil lug is all the way back in the pocket. Then tighten the lug screw up snugly to hold it all in place. Forgot to say make sure the ram rod is not in place.
When you have the lug screw in tight place the gun in a horizontal position and squeeze the nose of the forearm and the barrel together as tight as you can. If there is no movement – you’re done the barrel is seated on and in the barrel channel. Put the ram rod in and repeat the test. If the test is the same you’re done... go shoot it and give it a check for accuracy.
If during the squeeze test (ram rod removed) the barrel moves down into the stock or the stock moves up to the barrel... release the grip and note if the barrel moves (on its own) back to the original location. Everything should be good - the barrel is floating. Next repeat the test again noting where the barrel returns to. At this time grip the barrel and the forearm of the stock and pull them apart easily. If you feel the barrel stick at some point then you have a problem. If the barrel appears to lift slightly but when you release it - it returns to the original location and you feel no points of stickiness - you are good. Put the ram rod in and repeat the test.
During the squeeze testing if you felt some stickiness in the spring of the floating barrel you will then to do some very light sanding in the barrel channel to relieve the tight spot. You might be able to locate the tight spot by running a dollar bill under the barrel and between the stock to locate the tight spot. Do not sand any more than you need, in fact in my little world the thickness of a single dollar bill is the max thickness the barrel should be off the stock. I normal use a strip of white computer paper for this test it is thinner than a dollar bill - heck it might be worth more than the dollar bill also!!!
Hope this might help you... when you get your new stock and if I can help give a shout....
Post by: danderson on February 09, 2013, 05:34:23 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on February 09, 2013, 06:49:33 PM
Sabotloader, thanks for the information, I just checked my barrel with a dollar bill and its tighter than a bulls ass in fly season, cant even get the bill started, its a composite stock so if I understand your directions correctly I need to loosen up the lug screw place the butt of the rifle stock on the ground tap gently until the recoil lug is all the way back in the pocket then tighten the lug screw, checking to make sure there is enough play for a dollar bill to pass between the barrel and stock,
That activity will not fpoat the barrel but it will get the barred action all the way to the rear...
Just because the barrel is not floating is not a sign that everything is bad... but it is probably leading in part to your grouping problem.
With the rod out did you squeeze the barrel and stock together right at the end of the stock? Was there any movement and when you let go did it go back to the original spot?
Next, with two hands pull the stock and barrel away from each other, did you feel any stickness? when you have them apart gently let go. Does the barrel and stock move back to the same spot they were?
If the barrel sticks at all going down or coming up - you need to locate the sticky spot in the barrel channel of the stock and sand that point out - a little bit at a time. Reassembly and repeat test until stock no longer sticks any where. It can contact the stock but it should not stick anyplace.
You can also try to shim the barreled action up and see it clears(floats the barrel). Cut a small piece ot teflon cutting pad from the kitchen - your wifle used them as cutting boards - well maybe she does. Anyway cut a small square that will fit in the bottom of the recoil lug pocket in the stock. Use a regular hole punch and punch a hole in the center of the square so the lug screw will pass through it. Insert that in the bottom of the lug pocket put the gun back together and see if you get a floating barrel. If it does might shoot it and see if that tightens your groups. This is just a temporary fix to see if it helps accuracy...
I have done all this so many times it makes since to me.. but I also know I do not write so well so I may not be making sense...
mike
Post by: danderson on February 09, 2013, 07:15:28 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on February 09, 2013, 07:24:17 PM
I didn't get any movement in the stock while pressing against the barrel, or from pulling the barrel away from the stock, I haven't tryed loosening up the screw lug.
good... no movement is normally good.
Now the next test. Pull the ram rod and then remove the lug screw with the rifle in a horizontal position. Then carefully turn the rifle upside down and see if the barreld action falls out easily or might it be somewhat stuck in the barrel channel... I am banking there is sticky point in the stock... If not, if it comes out smoothly everything should be good to go...
Post by: danderson on February 09, 2013, 07:38:33 PM
Post by: danderson on February 09, 2013, 07:55:14 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on February 09, 2013, 08:12:24 PM
I pulled the lug screw out and literal had to pry the barrel out of the stock, it was stuck pretty well, put it back in tightened it up and removed it and it stuck again, so I'm thinking I need to shim the lug to get some clearance.
I was pretty sure that would be the case when you said no movement at all.
Next part... Take the barrel out again and set it aside and with a good light, and for me I would need to put my glasses on, look along both sides of the stock in the barrel channel and see if you can find where the channel has been polished to a brighter smoother area than the surrounding area. Normally if you have shot the rifle enough the barrel polishes the channel where it rubs the worst. Those area will need to be sanded out to reduce their grab on the barrel.
If you can not find any polished spots put the barrel back in the stock (do not put the screw in) and start sqeezing the barrel by hand to see if you can locate the spot that it hangs up. That will also show you where you might need to sand.
If you do not have one of those little teflon cutting boards you can use an aluminum beverage can to make shims. The cut great with a pare of scissors. It will take two or three layers of aluminum to equal the thickness of a teflon cutting board. Remember this will work to lift the action but it inot the bust long range plan. Sanding the barrel channel out is the best... Does not have to float - just not stick..
Post by: teanawayslayer on February 19, 2013, 01:53:00 PM
Post by: danderson on February 19, 2013, 10:09:40 PM
Post by: Bunny Thumper on February 19, 2013, 10:17:51 PM
Post by: Wacenturion on February 20, 2013, 08:25:11 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on February 20, 2013, 08:50:32 AM
I got the barrel floated like Sabotloader explained, had to sand a few places in the stock, and shimmed the lug, a dollar bill slides through without hanging up, I cant get up to my shooting range yet because of the snow wont be long. I still have to get some ammo
Great! it sounds like you made very good progress... At some point you might want to remove that lug shim and install the barreled action back into the stock normally. You may have solved the sticky problem just by the sanding you have already done. I would be curious if the the barreld action still sticks or if it less sticky...
mike
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 20, 2013, 11:54:02 AM
Post by: danderson on February 20, 2013, 07:36:01 PM
Post by: BOOM!! on February 26, 2013, 10:40:03 PM
I have never had an accuracy issue with my bighorn
And you decided to do what? :sry: :bdid: That thing will never shot straight again. :bash:
Just kidding man, you'll be fine :yike:
Post by: teanawayslayer on March 02, 2013, 12:33:13 PM
Williams peep....... :tup::yeah:x2. my groups changed dramatically. When you pull the gun up for a quick shot your eye is trained right down the barrel. It's nice not having to line everything up
Post by: danderson on March 02, 2013, 05:51:24 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 09, 2013, 05:01:16 PM
Post by: kerrdog on April 09, 2013, 05:29:45 PM
Post by: danderson on April 10, 2013, 06:39:26 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 10, 2013, 05:20:09 PM
Post by: danderson on April 10, 2013, 05:28:34 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on April 10, 2013, 08:35:35 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on April 10, 2013, 09:22:49 PM
I got my barrel floated also and been dying to get out a sight er in, I'm gonna get the williams peep installed first plus I'm having a hard time getting ammo, I'm looking for the bloodline
Wholesale Sports now Sportsman again should have them in stock and if everything else fails Knight has them. + you should be able to find them on line..
Post by: danderson on April 10, 2013, 09:34:43 PM
Post by: barracuda163 on April 14, 2013, 05:43:54 PM
Post by: shorthair15 on April 14, 2013, 06:01:03 PM
Post by: HntnFsh on April 20, 2013, 07:28:42 PM
call bobs sporting goods in longview they have a lot of bullets in stock for muzzleloaders they have knight bloodline in 275 grain and a few others for the 50 caliber a good supply for sure. I frequent the store often as it is my home town sporting goods store. they will ship out items as well.
Yep,was in there today. They had bloodlines in stock
Post by: danderson on April 21, 2013, 03:31:45 PM
Post by: danderson on May 22, 2013, 06:37:38 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on May 22, 2013, 07:45:37 AM
I have a couple of thoughts/questions I might share with you...
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Well I finally got the Williams peep sight attached to my rifle, picked up a batch of the Bloodlines in 300 grain some triple 7 powder, magnum caps, bore butter, and headed to the hills to sight in,
The 300 grain Bloodline are normally a very a very good flying bullet, so I would certainly agree with the choice of projectiles. My next assumption is that you are using the Red sabots provided with the bullet.
Powder and caps are exactly what I might use, but I am questioning what you might use Bore Butter for while shooting? If you might be using it in the bore or on the sabot that might be one of your problems especially at 100 yards.
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using a bench rest and starting at 25 yards started out low and after adjusting the site shot a decent group so moved out to 50 yards and pretty much shot in the same spot, moved out to 100 yards and here's were the problem starts, the group is still not were I would expect it to be, maybe I'm being a little picky
Your 25 yard group and even the 50 show a lot of promise and I agree, I would not be happy with the 100 yard group either.
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but with a bench rest and after shooting roughly 12 times am beginning to wonder if this is the best I can expect out of the rifle, I purchased it used and am beginning to wonder if its a lemon.
I really think you should expect more (better results) at 100 and beyond.... So here goes my questions...
What powder charge were you using? I have found it best to shoot the heavier and longer Bloodlines with a decent kick in the rear to keep them on track and to provide enough velocity for them to fight the external elements.
When you were shooting what was the outside temperature? A warm temp and a warm barrel can really be a problem on polymer sabots causing them to loose their grip on the bore.
There also could be a barrel to stock problem that might explain the 100 yard shots, but I am thinking since the 25 yard shots are so decent this may not be an issue.
For me, right now, I am thinking some of it or most of it might come down to the use of BB and/or how it was used. Sabots are self lubricating and should not need an application of BB. If you might be putting some in the bore between shots that that again could easily be causing your problem as the sabot will not be able to grip the bore and never get the rotational speed that it should.
If you are not shooting full bore lead conicals - I would really advise not using BB at all. If you have used it in your bore and you are going to shoot sabots you really need to get it out of the barrel before shooting. The worst part is that BB leaches into the pores of the bore and really does take a good boiling water cleaning to get it out. BB is/can be a good product in combination with conicals.
Just some thoughts from the peanut gallery... Let me know what you think
mike
Post by: danderson on May 22, 2013, 12:22:07 PM
I mentioned the bore butter because I was told that it helps reduce fouling between shots, Knowing that the first shot may not be the most accurate I discounted my first shot after cleaning and managed to get roughly 6 shots before I had to clean the barrel again, the temperature was in the mid 60s, another reason that I mentioned the BB is that when loading the muzzeloader its very hard to get the bullet started in the muzzel in the first 4 or so inches and putting a very small amount of BB on the sabot relieves that somewhat, then the bullet seats down the rest of the way easily, I am a little concerned that its seems to be tight at first then easy to seat the bullet. I have sanded the interior of the stock so that the barrel isn't sticking in there anymore when removed, but cannot slide a dollar bill through after there put back together, there is still some free play between the barrel and stock so I don't think sticking is an issue. The only thing I haven't tryed yet is giving it a good old fashioned boiling water clean up I been using the water soluble stuff recommended by others. Another thing I haven't tryed is increasing the powder load to 110 grains to see if that makes a difference.
Post by: dawhunt on May 23, 2013, 05:32:36 AM
bob
Post by: Sabotloader on May 23, 2013, 07:05:57 AM
Quit using bore butter !!! you don't need it if its to hard to load the red sabot get a differant sabot from Knight they have an easy load sabot.
bob
The EZ load sabot is for a .451/.452 bullet Danderson is shooting a .458, which still might work but I do not know that it would loosen anything up.
Post by: Sabotloader on May 23, 2013, 07:46:40 AM
Thanks for the help Mike, I am shooting 100 grains of the T7 using the red sabots provided,
OK - thanks for the info..
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I mentioned the bore butter because I was told that it helps reduce fouling between shots,
And it can do just what you mentioned especially with conicals, and even the older plastic sabots but it needs to applied correctly to a hot barrel then the excess dry patched out. I use it still today in my trap chokes to help reduce plastic fouling. But, with todays new formulation of Polymer it really is not necessary. One of the things you could do to help reduce fouling - do not use a bore with Teflon in it. Teflon burns and creates a sticky, but somewhat slick substance. If possible find a bore that is synthetic like Western Montana Extreme Bore Conditioner, Eezox Gun Oil, or Slip 2000 gun oil. These synthetic oils do not attract the fouling like a regular petroleum oil.
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Knowing that the first shot may not be the most accurate I discounted my first shot after cleaning and managed to get roughly 6 shots before I had to clean the barrel again, the temperature was in the mid 60s,
After the six shots when you ran the patch down where was the resistance the tightest? Still at the muzzle end of the barrel or at the breech end?
Suggestion make yourself a small number of Windex (regular blue Windex with ammonia) patches and for awhile start running one of these patches after each shot. It will take awhile to clean the BB out of the bore and the pores of the bore.
This is the way I make mine - especially when shooting T7 with shotgun primers.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FWinPatch.jpg&hash=4c2a517d56eef6ed628baa068de5faef57d93973) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/WinPatch.jpg.html)
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another reason that I mentioned the BB is that when loading the muzzeloader its very hard to get the bullet started in the muzzel in the first 4 or so inches and putting a very small amount of BB on the sabot relieves that somewhat, then the bullet seats down the rest of the way easily,
You may very well have a build up of fouling in that first 4-6" at the top of the barrel. That area of the barrel cools faster than other portions of the barrel and with the use of BB on the sabot most of it will be rubbed off of the sabot in that first 4-6" of the barrel. Probably should not say this but instead of using BB I often just roll the outside of the sabot on my tongue to light moisten the sabot. Do not get any moisture in the powder cup though. The saliva acts as a lubricant to get it through the crown of the barrel.
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I am a little concerned that its seems to be tight at first then easy to seat the bullet.
I would bet it is a build up fouling caught behind the lands in the barrel and even into the grooves on the top of the barrel. Really sounds like an aggressive cleaning is needed. You can do it the old fashioned hot water and soap, a degreasing soap like Zep Orange Citrus Degreaser or another such product. ZEP is available at Home Depot
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plumbersurplus.com%2Fimages%2Fprod%2F5%2FEnforcer-ZUCIT128-rw-205680-314245.jpg&hash=193d8f0663aa4bda91ddebd58bacd0ba80d1cfff)
When you are done cleaning with the hot water and soap rinse the bore with boiling water - that will just flake the plastic and fouling off the bore.
Another way to tackle it might be by using JB's Bore Cleaning compound. This is a commercial video of the use of JB's
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=13084/guntechdetail/Using_JB_Bore_Paste_and_Kroil_with_the_VFG_Bore_Pellets (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=13084/guntechdetail/Using_JB_Bore_Paste_and_Kroil_with_the_VFG_Bore_Pellets)
This is a little overboard for me but really does work - I simply use the JB's on a lightly oiled patch and on the end of my loading cleaning jag. It should be a tight fit. It will turn your bore black and you will have to do a good cleaning job when you are done. I think I have my routine written up here some place. If I find it I will put it in...
Found an answer that I wrote to a guy...
sabotloader - OzarkPA Howdy SL -
When you ran your JB paste in your bore - did you just oil a patch and coat with paste and run it with your jag?
Thanks,
Geoff
Yes, you might have to double your patch to get a tight fit. But I ran an oiled patch with JB's smeared on the sides...ran that side 25 strokes top to bottom (important) then flip the patch over and run another 25 strokes. Did this 4 times then clean up the bore and see what you might have accomplished... On my Triumph I think I ran this operation twice.
Hope this helps
mike
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I have sanded the interior of the stock so that the barrel isn't sticking in there anymore when removed, but cannot slide a dollar bill through after there put back together, there is still some free play between the barrel and stock so I don't think sticking is an issue.
That sounds pretty good to me... but still might be an issue - especially if you have the front rest far out on the forearm when shooting on the bench. Try to move the front rest as far back as you can - maybe just ahead of the lug screw. The rest could be pushing the stock against the bore causing it to move just a tiny bit.
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The only thing I haven't tryed yet is giving it a good old fashioned boiling water clean up I been using the water soluble stuff recommended by others. Another thing I haven't tryed is increasing the powder load to 110 grains to see if that makes a difference.
I am not sure moving the load up will help right now. I think I would work on the bore and than also make sure the front rest is back on the stock...
Hope this is not confusing the issue - but I really believe you have a good rifle and it just might need some tender loving care right now....
Oh see if you can find some Birchwood Casey 2 in 1 Bore Scrubber (liquid in a bottle)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fts2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DH.5057651403982921%26amp%3Bpid%3D1.7%26amp%3Bw%3D171%26amp%3Bh%3D175%26amp%3Bc%3D7%26amp%3Brs%3D1&hash=5d710d3019e3e83d00548c76b2a48bc9d77f8388)
If you find it let me know - I will pass on a little cleaning tip using it ...
mike
Post by: scottcrb on May 23, 2013, 06:17:50 PM