Post by: longstevo on February 11, 2013, 05:21:27 AM
Him: I support gun control and expanded background checks.
Me: Expanded background checks just lead to universal gun registration, ect
Him: Seriously? Don't you think that every time you buy a gun from Walmart and fill out the background check forms that information is forwarded to the feds and already registered?
Me: Uh.....
Is that true? When we step up to Walmart to purchase a firearm and fill out that information packet, who keeps that information from getting into the ATF's hands? Aren't we already registering our newly purchased firearms each and every time we buy one?
:dunno:
Post by: netcoyote on February 11, 2013, 05:30:45 AM
Now that is what is supposed to happen. I would be skeptical if somehow, some government entity doesn't find a way to hang onto the information as a de facto registration.
Post by: netcoyote on February 11, 2013, 05:42:39 AM
From the FBI website: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics)
From a website (no garantee of accuracy)
http://www.ms-sportsman.com/printer_friendly.php?id=312 (http://www.ms-sportsman.com/printer_friendly.php?id=312)
"
The National Instant Criminal Background Check System (“NICS”) is a background check that must be performed by any Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) when he sells a gun to an individual.
When a person goes to a store to buy a gun, he (or she) must fill out a standard federal firearms purchase Form 4473, which asks some cursory background questions. The dealer then calls the NICS number and reads the individual information to an FBI computer geek.
A quick background check of the individual purchaser is run to determine if he/she has outstanding warrants or has been convicted of a felony or other criminal activity.
Normally this action takes only a few seconds, and the NICS checker gives the retailer the go-ahead to proceed with the sale.
If the information on the individual is not instantly available, or if there is a computer problem, the retailer is instructed to hold the sale. The customer will then be told to return in three days. If the NICS system has not contacted the retailer in that time, the retailer may at his discretion sell the gun to the individual.
Here’s the beautiful part. Once the NICS system has given the go-ahead to allow the sale to proceed, all pertinent information on the purchaser must be eradicated from the system within 24 hours. The FBI has been mandated by Congress and federal law not to use this information to build a firearms owner data base.
The Form 4473 that is filled out by the purchaser stays in the possession of the gun dealer. It is not transmitted to the federal government in any way, although Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATFE) compliance agents make periodic checks of gun retailers to ensure they are keeping proper records.
When a person goes to a store to buy a gun, he (or she) must fill out a standard federal firearms purchase Form 4473, which asks some cursory background questions. The dealer then calls the NICS number and reads the individual information to an FBI computer geek.
A quick background check of the individual purchaser is run to determine if he/she has outstanding warrants or has been convicted of a felony or other criminal activity.
Normally this action takes only a few seconds, and the NICS checker gives the retailer the go-ahead to proceed with the sale.
If the information on the individual is not instantly available, or if there is a computer problem, the retailer is instructed to hold the sale. The customer will then be told to return in three days. If the NICS system has not contacted the retailer in that time, the retailer may at his discretion sell the gun to the individual.
Here’s the beautiful part. Once the NICS system has given the go-ahead to allow the sale to proceed, all pertinent information on the purchaser must be eradicated from the system within 24 hours. The FBI has been mandated by Congress and federal law not to use this information to build a firearms owner data base.
The Form 4473 that is filled out by the purchaser stays in the possession of the gun dealer. It is not transmitted to the federal government in any way, although Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATFE) compliance agents make periodic checks of gun retailers to ensure they are keeping proper records.
But because of these forms, and the checking through NICS, many people assume some form of gun registration is in place. That they are not offended by this presumption absolutely frightens me.
Another important thing to remember is there is no need to register a gun or conduct an NICS check on sales or transfers of guns between individuals."
Post by: Wazukie on February 11, 2013, 06:32:41 AM
Post by: ICEMAN on February 11, 2013, 06:51:55 AM
So....When a gun is stolen, how do they know who the "registered" owner is so they can return it? By "registered" I mean the "original purchaser" Sounds like an ownership database to me :dunno:
They can't. Unless you report a gun stolen, law enforcement have "basically" no way to know who to return a gun to. FFLs maintain a record of sales, but they are not reporting these to the feds. In some instances FFLs will release the name of someone who purchased, think DC sniper Lee/Malvo etc...
Dept of Licensing offers a form which you can register a private sale of a handgun. Voluntary.
When LE take a stolen gun report, they enter the data into a national database/stolen property file. This is what they can later run a located weapon serial number against....
Post by: SniperDanWA on February 11, 2013, 06:52:56 AM
So....When a gun is stolen, how do they know who the "registered" owner is so they can return it? By "registered" I mean the "original purchaser" Sounds like an ownership database to me :dunno:
That's what I alluded to in an earlier post, but many on here think the forms are destroyed. I guess I don't agree. Someone, somewhere keeps some info on it, as the LEO seem to go to the person the gun was registered to first. :dunno:
Post by: CAM38 on February 11, 2013, 06:56:13 AM
Post by: Wazukie on February 11, 2013, 06:57:34 AM
So....When a gun is stolen, how do they know who the "registered" owner is so they can return it? By "registered" I mean the "original purchaser" Sounds like an ownership database to me :dunno:
They can't. Unless you report a gun stolen, law enforcement have "basically" no way to know who to return a gun to. FFLs maintain a record of sales, but they are not reporting these to the feds. In some instances FFLs will release the name of someone who purchased, think DC sniper Lee/Malvo etc...
Dept of Licensing offers a form which you can register a private sale of a handgun. Voluntary.
When LE take a stolen gun report, they enter the data into a national database/stolen property file. This is what they can later run a located weapon serial number against....
My father had a 22 pistol stolen. He did not know it was stolen. It was then found and he was contacted by police. They asked if he owned such and such pistol. He confirmed that he did. When asked how they knew it was his, they said they ran the serial #. Now this was a pistol that he had bought back in the 1950's. To this day, I can not figure out how they traced to him, if they did not have the serial number in some kind of database. :dunno:
Post by: ICEMAN on February 11, 2013, 07:07:39 AM
The NCIC is a huge database, but it does not contain gun sale records.
http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fbi/is/ncic.htm (http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fbi/is/ncic.htm)
Wazukie, I cannot explain how they knew to contact your father. Is it possible that the theif admitted to LE where he stole if from? Or possible it was stolen with other things that may have had your fathers name on it?
Post by: boneaddict on February 11, 2013, 07:16:11 AM
Post by: Wazukie on February 11, 2013, 07:35:53 AM
Post by: lee on February 11, 2013, 07:45:27 AM
Lee
Post by: magnanimous_j on February 11, 2013, 08:01:23 AM
So, .... when an FFL'er calls for a NIC check on someone..... exactly what information is given? Just personal info or is also information on the firearm you are purchasing given?
Lee
That's the million dollar question. When I worked at Sports Authority behind the gun counter, part of my job was to maintain the records. They were complete records of gun purchases. Names, addresses, Social Security, serial numbers, all of it.
We would fax a copy to corporate and every once in a while a courier would come around for the original copy of this or that.
I promise that Sports Authority would not waste 1/10th of a second surrendering that info to the government if they asked for it. So it may not have been a Firearms Database, but it functioned like one.
Post by: Lincoln4 on February 11, 2013, 08:10:51 AM
Post by: longstevo on February 11, 2013, 08:20:33 AM
So, .... when an FFL'er calls for a NIC check on someone..... exactly what information is given? Just personal info or is also information on the firearm you are purchasing given?
Lee
That's the million dollar question. When I worked at Sports Authority behind the gun counter, part of my job was to maintain the records. They were complete records of gun purchases. Names, addresses, Social Security, serial numbers, all of it.
We would fax a copy to corporate and every once in a while a courier would come around for the original copy of this or that.
I promise that Sports Authority would not waste 1/10th of a second surrendering that info to the government if they asked for it. So it may not have been a Firearms Database, but it functioned like one.
So you guys would have stacks of records with complete personal information on it, and every now and then a 'courier' would show up and take them away?
Post by: Cascade_fisher on February 11, 2013, 08:23:19 AM
Post by: magnanimous_j on February 11, 2013, 08:31:37 AM
So, .... when an FFL'er calls for a NIC check on someone..... exactly what information is given? Just personal info or is also information on the firearm you are purchasing given?
Lee
That's the million dollar question. When I worked at Sports Authority behind the gun counter, part of my job was to maintain the records. They were complete records of gun purchases. Names, addresses, Social Security, serial numbers, all of it.
We would fax a copy to corporate and every once in a while a courier would come around for the original copy of this or that.
I promise that Sports Authority would not waste 1/10th of a second surrendering that info to the government if they asked for it. So it may not have been a Firearms Database, but it functioned like one.
So you guys would have stacks of records with complete personal information on it, and every now and then a 'courier' would show up and take them away?
More or less. The records were in a locked storeroom. Every once in a while (maybe 4 or 5 times in the 2.5 years I worked there), corporate would call and tell us to prepare specific records. We would make sure they were complete and we put them in a special envelope with a plastic safety seal with a serial number on it. The next day a guy would come back and ask for those exact records. 99.9% of the records were permanently stored on site.
Management told us they were records that had been requested by the government for one reason or another.
Post by: Machias on February 11, 2013, 08:42:05 AM
Management told us they were records that had been requested by the government for one reason or another.
Those are the records of guys that were on HuntWa talking about overthrowing the US Government. ;)
Post by: Heredoggydoggy on February 11, 2013, 08:47:19 AM
So....When a gun is stolen, how do they know who the "registered" owner is so they can return it? By "registered" I mean the "original purchaser" Sounds like an ownership database to me :dunno:
When the LE get a gun, all they can do at that point is ask the gun manufacturer what Distributor the gun went to. They then contact the Distributor and find out which gun shop the gun went to. They then contact the gun shop to get the name of the original purchaser. That's as far as the paper trail leads. I know several guys that got guns back that were either stolen or sold, because they were the "Owner of Record". I know a couple of people who have 2 of the same gun because they had one stolen, and after buying another one, Police recovered the stolen one and returned it to him.
Post by: longstevo on February 11, 2013, 08:54:50 AM
Management told us they were records that had been requested by the government for one reason or another.
Huh......
Post by: jyerxa on February 11, 2013, 09:15:06 AM
Post by: Alchase on February 11, 2013, 09:18:16 AM
Management told us they were records that had been requested by the government for one reason or another.
Those are the records of guys that were on HuntWa talking about overthrowing the US Government. ;)
No, just those with pics showing Nate Steelhead out of water
:hello:
:chuckle:
Post by: netcoyote on February 11, 2013, 09:24:00 AM
I know that the NCIC paperwork goes no where, that it stays with the FFL that does the sell. The gentleman who stole my father's firearm was never found in possession of said firearm. I do believe though, I could be wrong, that does happen now and again, that when a sell is done, the info on the form is verbally transmitted to the person on the other end of the phone line. That includes firearm information. I also know that the fed's say that that information is purged. Well they also say we were never in Cambodia either. :dunno:
Another possibility is that your father may have sent a manufacturers warrantee card in and the LEO called the manufacturer to disclose the original buyer's identification.
Post by: sirmissalot on February 11, 2013, 09:30:47 AM
Post by: kirkl on February 11, 2013, 09:35:08 AM
Post by: lokidog on February 11, 2013, 09:39:55 AM
Post by: netcoyote on February 11, 2013, 10:06:14 AM
All the government has to do is ask (with a warrant if they want to pretend to follow the laws of the nation) any of these FFLs with their records to turn them over and they will do so, bing, bang, boom, registration complete. That is why they are so intent on getting private sales to have background checks.
So how do they know WHICH FFL to ask? Sure they could start in the area you live, but what if you live in Forks and bought a gun new in Spokane 12 years ago? Do they send out a blanket search order to every FFL in the state? ...in the country?
Post by: woodswalker on February 11, 2013, 10:08:45 AM
Post by: turkeyfeather on February 11, 2013, 10:14:22 AM
My understanding is that Form 4473 is required to be held on site of the purchase (or at least in the seller's control) for 10 years. The NICS call is only information on the individual, not the firearm(s) being purchased.That's not true. The serial number of the gun you purchased is recorded on the form. I have on several occasions heard the FFL read off the serial number when calling NICS.
Post by: JJD on February 11, 2013, 10:30:47 AM
Even Cabelas tracks your ammo purchases if you purchase with credit card.
I know this because they asked me to review some ammo I bought there. Not sure I like anyone tracking what type and how much ammo I purchase. Cash from now on.
Post by: JC-NORTHFORKER on February 11, 2013, 10:41:34 AM
Post by: lokidog on February 11, 2013, 10:46:41 AM
All the government has to do is ask (with a warrant if they want to pretend to follow the laws of the nation) any of these FFLs with their records to turn them over and they will do so, bing, bang, boom, registration complete. That is why they are so intent on getting private sales to have background checks.
So how do they know WHICH FFL to ask? Sure they could start in the area you live, but what if you live in Forks and bought a gun new in Spokane 12 years ago? Do they send out a blanket search order to every FFL in the state? ...in the country?
When they want to know who has ALL of the guns, they will just go to ALL of the FFLs, you don't think their computers can sort it out? :tinfoil: Just because it is a conspiracy theory doesn't mean it can't ever be a conspiracy fact.
Post by: turkeyfeather on February 11, 2013, 10:50:14 AM
I am an FFL dealer, when the 4473 is filled out it stays an premisis, with the pistol transfers we are required to fax a copy of it to the state. That is why on pistols they can track down the original purchaser. With a long gun, rifle or shotgun no information is passed on, it stays with the ffl. The law enforcement can track it from the manufacturer to the distributor, to the dealer and than to the original perchaser, by contacting the dealer. From there on there is no more tracking the firearm unless you know who you sold it to.So the question is what does the state do with it then? I honestly think we are naive to think the gov't doesn't keep track of this.
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on February 11, 2013, 10:54:36 AM
And don't forget the state game and wildlife offices...anyone who has purchased a hunting license or tag for modern firearms, regardless of whether they have ever purchased a gun from an FFL.
Post by: 300UltraMagShooter on February 11, 2013, 10:51:25 PM
However, don't make the mistake of saying "aren't we already doing such and such..." as a way to justify more.
This is the example for why you don't want to do it. This is how "slow creep" or "slippery slope" works.
You step by step give up a little of your freedom till one day you wake up and don't have it.
The point should be made, "see, it is happening just as we said it would."
Anyway, what's the point, the smart people are in the 5% bracket. The rest of the people seem to be really dumb... and a lot of the really dumb people are in charge.
Sad to see America go down in history as just another fallen trial. Sadly, with the lunatics winning, even the history books will not show what we had and what we lost.... since the winners (lunatics) get to write the history books.
Post by: GrainfedMuley on February 12, 2013, 12:46:32 AM
Post by: csaaphill on February 12, 2013, 03:38:05 AM
Looks like there's enough paper trail done with what is aleady on the books. If they get the Universal background check then muley would be wrong at that point. Meaning after that time it will be required for you to keep a record and background check.
But very uninforcable unless you sell To a FBI ATF person.
Just another reason to be against any more of this kind of infringements.
Post by: GrainfedMuley on February 12, 2013, 05:24:10 AM
Post by: lokidog on February 12, 2013, 11:03:55 AM
I am an FFL dealer, when the 4473 is filled out it stays an premisis, with the pistol transfers we are required to fax a copy of it to the state. That is why on pistols they can track down the original purchaser. With a long gun, rifle or shotgun no information is passed on, it stays with the ffl. The law enforcement can track it from the manufacturer to the distributor, to the dealer and than to the original perchaser, by contacting the dealer. From there on there is no more tracking the firearm unless you know who you sold it to.
The dealer I just bought a handgun from sent a copy to my county sheriff (they called me at home to verify since my mailing address is a different county than my residence address), another one goes to the state?
Post by: JC-NORTHFORKER on February 12, 2013, 01:27:45 PM
I am an FFL dealer, when the 4473 is filled out it stays an premisis, with the pistol transfers we are required to fax a copy of it to the state. That is why on pistols they can track down the original purchaser. With a long gun, rifle or shotgun no information is passed on, it stays with the ffl. The law enforcement can track it from the manufacturer to the distributor, to the dealer and than to the original perchaser, by contacting the dealer. From there on there is no more tracking the firearm unless you know who you sold it to.
The dealer I just bought a handgun from sent a copy to my county sheriff (they called me at home to verify since my mailing address is a different county than my residence address), another one goes to the state?
without a concealed permit we do fax it to the law enforcement agency where the customer lives and they do the background check. Then when we transfer the pistol we send a copy of the pistol transfer paperwork to the DOL, in olympia. With a concealed permit we just call in the NICS check and send the pistol transfer form to the DOL.
Post by: lokidog on February 12, 2013, 05:11:23 PM
I am an FFL dealer, when the 4473 is filled out it stays an premisis, with the pistol transfers we are required to fax a copy of it to the state. That is why on pistols they can track down the original purchaser. With a long gun, rifle or shotgun no information is passed on, it stays with the ffl. The law enforcement can track it from the manufacturer to the distributor, to the dealer and than to the original perchaser, by contacting the dealer. From there on there is no more tracking the firearm unless you know who you sold it to.
The dealer I just bought a handgun from sent a copy to my county sheriff (they called me at home to verify since my mailing address is a different county than my residence address), another one goes to the state?
without a concealed permit we do fax it to the law enforcement agency where the customer lives and they do the background check. Then when we transfer the pistol we send a copy of the pistol transfer paperwork to the DOL, in olympia. With a concealed permit we just call in the NICS check and send the pistol transfer form to the DOL.
I have a CPL and walked away with the gun. :dunno:
Post by: csaaphill on February 12, 2013, 11:20:47 PM
truley though that's a good skill to have. :tup:
Post by: GrainfedMuley on February 12, 2013, 11:23:55 PM
good to know muley you will be indispensible. which is why Fema camps is where your going :chuckle:
truley though that's a good skill to have. :tup:
HAH! The only way I going to a FEMA camp is in a body bag. :chuckle:
Post by: Mudman on February 12, 2013, 11:33:35 PM
Post by: csaaphill on February 13, 2013, 12:01:32 AM
Post by: GrainfedMuley on February 13, 2013, 03:52:52 AM
I think they already have a fbi database of all these records and such. I heard they are building some massive archive emails record cia center in Virginia. So every email here and facebook and everywhere else can be sorted. Gun pops up in email it will be filtered to worker bee to investigate and record as gun owner. They can get our names and link it all together. Add this to hunt licsense and gun sell records and they will not miss many people at all. I bet that would account for 90% of gun owners or more. Sounds pretty far out there yes, but very easily done compared to door to door and leo enforced registery. Ammo sales will be recorded next and this will prove their intentions clearly in my eyes. :yike:
Huh.......and people say there is no gun conspiracy in America.
Post by: csaaphill on February 13, 2013, 04:30:07 AM
:chuckle:
Post by: Mudman on February 13, 2013, 07:39:24 AM
Post by: csaaphill on February 14, 2013, 11:15:36 PM
Ya I know its out there! But I try an keep an open mind. :chuckle: Besides nothing has that far out there lately. It seems alot of conspiracies or fears have been showing some truth recently. Just like Obama "Im not coming for Americas guns" Really! :bash: 5 years ago Drones were military weapons only not domestic.seems like everytime they initiate these things they, do it for a reason, once done like the killing of bin laden, Husane etc...
One would think ok time to do away with it right? Why keep the patriot act? Why resign or bring in the NDAA, DHS. Shouldn't these all be done away with? Nope gota keep them and find some use for em. Yep it happens all the time once something has run it's cource and should be disbanded the GOV finds a way to keep it active.
Post by: Mudman on February 14, 2013, 11:51:11 PM
Post by: csaaphill on February 15, 2013, 12:54:17 AM
i know welfare was to be only used untill u got a job.
Now Progressive Socialists use it to propregate their agenda.
Post by: GrainfedMuley on February 15, 2013, 02:33:57 AM
not sure but good questin
i know welfare was to be only used untill u got a job.
Now Progressive Socialists use it to propregate their agenda.
So true. My sister has been on PA since she was 18. She just turned 46 at the end of January. She has not had a steady job her entire life for more than 6 months. What does she have to show for it? 3 kids and no Daddy.