Post by: BIGINNER on February 11, 2013, 12:19:59 PM
the purpose of this thread isn't to discuss weather or not the guy taking the video is a dumbazz, but about the response from the police and how we should respond to them. its sad that law abiding citizens (like me) are worried about cops reacting to a perfectly legal thing. :dunno:
anyways here's the video
Police vs *censored* (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgU3ZCIPK-A#)
Post by: pianoman9701 on February 11, 2013, 12:27:43 PM
Post by: Curly on February 11, 2013, 12:35:42 PM
Post by: predatorpro on February 11, 2013, 12:59:14 PM
Post by: jrebel on February 11, 2013, 01:01:14 PM
Post by: Knocker of rocks on February 11, 2013, 01:06:06 PM
Those cops are really ignorant of the law. God, MO was a terrible state in which to live.
:yeah:
Substitute "black" for "with a weapon", and see what would happen. They gave no legal or logical reason to detain him
Post by: h20hunter on February 11, 2013, 01:13:54 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on February 11, 2013, 01:15:32 PM
Post by: Crunchy on February 11, 2013, 01:17:44 PM
Post by: Heredoggydoggy on February 11, 2013, 01:18:12 PM
Post by: snowpack on February 11, 2013, 01:18:53 PM
Post by: Knocker of rocks on February 11, 2013, 01:25:30 PM
OK....i've typed up a few comments but needed to delete them because they come back to me wanting to put the guy down for being inciteful. I think the repsonse by the cops if fairly typical and to be expected. The police have to respond to all the phone calls they would get in this situation. By the time they get there I'm sure they are plenty irritated and are going to be butt heads to the guy. Not something I would do but yes, it does get you thinking about the reponse you would get if it came down to it.
The cops started off as confrontational, by call the guy as azz...., so they didn't get off on the right foot.
I do think there is a little bit of bully in some open carry people, they sometimes seem to like making people feel intimidated and uncomfortable.
I don't think there is an easy answer
Post by: h20hunter on February 11, 2013, 01:34:02 PM
Post by: Curly on February 11, 2013, 01:37:45 PM
Post by: Crunchy on February 11, 2013, 01:41:06 PM
Post by: Curly on February 11, 2013, 01:46:13 PM
Post by: Arnbo on February 11, 2013, 01:50:41 PM
Post by: Curly on February 11, 2013, 01:52:08 PM
Doyou think the loud mouth cop could really chase a suspect over a half a block.
He'd probably give it a good try if the guy had stolen some Krispy Cremes.
:peep:
Post by: BIGINNER on February 11, 2013, 01:52:36 PM
Post by: Curly on February 11, 2013, 01:55:28 PM
Post by: BIGINNER on February 11, 2013, 01:55:37 PM
Post by: Knocker of rocks on February 11, 2013, 02:10:57 PM
also,.. at what point can you just walk away from the cops if they have nothing to hold against you? or is any law abiding citizen automatically obligated to stay once an officer starts talking to them.... :dunno:
I think you have to ask "am I being detained?". At which the point the officer will tell you that you are or are not. He should also tell you the reason you are being detained, whether that is the lawfull carrying of a firearm, being young or of color.
Post by: BIGINNER on February 11, 2013, 02:18:27 PM
also,.. at what point can you just walk away from the cops if they have nothing to hold against you? or is any law abiding citizen automatically obligated to stay once an officer starts talking to them.... :dunno:
I think you have to ask "am I being detained?". At which the point the officer will tell you that you are or are not. He should also tell you the reason you are being detained, whether that is the lawfull carrying of a firearm, being young or of color.
according to those cop,.. the guy was being reckless with his gun (holstered).
Post by: Dhoey07 on February 11, 2013, 02:19:05 PM
I also understand people calling the police about a person carrying a gun, walking down a busy street for no apparent reason, whether it's holstered or not.
Post by: Special T on February 11, 2013, 02:32:04 PM
Post by: Mongo Hunter on February 11, 2013, 02:58:31 PM
I have tried educating a cop on the side of the road during a traffic stop, trust me even if you ARE right your WRONG. I know its sucks but that's just the way it is, I don't like it either. (I did talk to the sheriff the next day)
Believe it or not I think most cops are FOR and armed public and being hostel towards them doesn't help and visa versa. the first time I saw a video like this I thought it was funny and all that but now I'm just worried that we are going to get in this constent head butting and the cops may decide that they don't like having an armed public anymore cause its too much hassle.
Post by: pianoman9701 on February 11, 2013, 03:12:49 PM
Those cops are really ignorant of the law. God, MO was a terrible state in which to live.
:yeah:
Substitute "black" for "with a weapon", and see what would happen. They gave no legal or logical reason to detain him
Sure they did. "We got complaints. Wadda you expect us to do?" Total morons.
Post by: JLS on February 11, 2013, 03:14:56 PM
Post by: h20hunter on February 11, 2013, 03:25:09 PM
Post by: Rudy on February 11, 2013, 03:27:16 PM
Handled pretty poorly by both parties.
I couldnt agree more, well said
Post by: Special T on February 11, 2013, 03:27:54 PM
Post by: BIGINNER on February 11, 2013, 03:31:30 PM
I think the comments that says both sides handled poorly are really summing it up. Demonstating your rights in this manner is simply never very successfull. By that, I mean both parties end up looking stupid. Not sure how many folks were toting weapons at the pro rally in Olympia but I haven't seen a single video clip of this type of confrontation. Down there.....a pro rally.....proper time and place. Side of the street...it just doesn't maky anyone look good.
I open carry on the side of streets, gas stations, parks,.... should I stop? :hello:
Post by: JLS on February 11, 2013, 03:35:21 PM
Post by: predatorpro on February 11, 2013, 03:42:29 PM
Post by: h20hunter on February 11, 2013, 03:44:32 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on February 11, 2013, 03:46:55 PM
The job of the police is to protect society within the limits of the law, the Constitution being the law of the land. It's prudent for an officer, upon getting a complaint to check out the person with the firearm to the best of his ability while maintaining the Constitutional rights of the open-carrier. However, police not only don't often have my Constitutional rights in mind when they stop me, they're often ignorant of what they are or why they're important. This was clearly the case in this video.
The other question, should I carry is an individual question, but certainly a person's right, depending on local restrictions to the contrary. Is it bad to make a point by doing so? Maybe, maybe not. The cops in this video clearly could benefit from more exposure to legal carry citizens. What makes the guy in this video different from any citizen who open carries for protection? Nothing. But, the stigma that the media and unfortunately, our present government has put on gun ownership is what causes the confusion about our rights, not the person exercising them.
I prefer to look at it in light of our other rights. Would you consider someone who exercises their 1st Amendment rights to be a trouble-maker for going to church whenever they feel like it, or for protesting the actions of our government by walking up and down the sidewalk in front of the federal building with a sign? If your answer is "no", then it should probably be the same for our 2nd Amendment, as well.
Post by: FisherKing on February 11, 2013, 03:47:18 PM
I don't think an officer is violating the person's rights by simply asking him his name and age or asking for ID. Once they find out that he is legally able to posses a pistol, then he can be on his way.........(at least that is how I see it).
Actually Curly they are.
Only in a police state do you have to show ID, you have the freedom to be anonymous in the United State. We are a nation of laws. Unless they are making a "terry stop" based on probable cause, only they do have the right to detain you. Especially in a digital age every time you show an officer and id it can be logged and even placed on the police blotter, "so and so was carrying a gun, was released." Being anonymous is something to cherish, because it really is freedom.
Post by: Smossy on February 11, 2013, 03:49:30 PM
Post by: h20hunter on February 11, 2013, 03:50:43 PM
Post by: 400out on February 11, 2013, 03:50:50 PM
Post by: ellensburgpo on February 11, 2013, 03:51:26 PM
I don't think an officer is violating the person's rights by simply asking him his name and age or asking for ID. Once they find out that he is legally able to posses a pistol, then he can be on his way.........(at least that is how I see it).
Actually Curly they are.
Only in a police state do you have to show ID, you have the freedom to be anonymous in the United State. We are a nation of laws. Unless they are making a "terry stop" based on probable cause, only they do have the right to detain you. Especially in a digital age every time you show an officer and id it can be logged and even placed on the police blotter, "so and so was carrying a gun, was released." Being anonymous is something to cherish, because it really is freedom.
Probable cause and terry stop are not the same thing. They are two different thresholds.
Post by: predatorpro on February 11, 2013, 03:54:26 PM
:yeah:I don't think an officer is violating the person's rights by simply asking him his name and age or asking for ID. Once they find out that he is legally able to posses a pistol, then he can be on his way.........(at least that is how I see it).
Actually Curly they are.
Only in a police state do you have to show ID, you have the freedom to be anonymous in the United State. We are a nation of laws. Unless they are making a "terry stop" based on probable cause, only they do have the right to detain you. Especially in a digital age every time you show an officer and id it can be logged and even placed on the police blotter, "so and so was carrying a gun, was released." Being anonymous is something to cherish, because it really is freedom.
they need to have probable cause that he has commited a crime...in no way had did that cop have any probable cause that this man had broken the law... the cop should have shook the mans hand for being a proud american and exercising his rights! we could use more people like that guy!
Post by: pianoman9701 on February 11, 2013, 04:01:21 PM
what a dick! neither are very smart but personally I think they should beat the camera guy with his pistol for making us all look like idiots :bash: :bash:
Really? Beat the camera man because this guy, regardless of how idiotic, is exercising his legal rights under the most valuable laws of our land? So much for the 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 5th Amendments then, as well, eh?
Post by: Smossy on February 11, 2013, 04:03:53 PM
You better not have an arrow nocked. They would think you were going to poke a bunch of holes in something you shouldn't somewhere that you weren't allowed to be.lol :chuckle:
Post by: JLS on February 11, 2013, 04:05:58 PM
:yeah:I don't think an officer is violating the person's rights by simply asking him his name and age or asking for ID. Once they find out that he is legally able to posses a pistol, then he can be on his way.........(at least that is how I see it).
Actually Curly they are.
Only in a police state do you have to show ID, you have the freedom to be anonymous in the United State. We are a nation of laws. Unless they are making a "terry stop" based on probable cause, only they do have the right to detain you. Especially in a digital age every time you show an officer and id it can be logged and even placed on the police blotter, "so and so was carrying a gun, was released." Being anonymous is something to cherish, because it really is freedom.
they need to have probable cause that he has commited a crime...in no way had did that cop have any probable cause that this man had broken the law... the cop should have shook the mans hand for being a proud american and exercising his rights! we could use more people like that guy!
You're a little off here, probable cause is needed to effect an arrest. Reasonable suspicion is needed to detain and investigate.
Post by: jaymark6655 on February 11, 2013, 04:06:16 PM
Unfortunately I think the guy doesn't keep calm and this whole video is what both sides shouldn't do.
I couldn't watch the whole thing, but someone on here said he should just comply. If this is has anything to do with the covering up the firearm, it should be noted that depending on the situation the cop could be telling him to break the law and he was right not to comply.
Here in WA a guy can carry without a CPL and if instructed to cover up even by a cop, he should not do it.
Cops like this are why some people carry rifles. Its legal, why not do it. Because it upsets or causes people distress; well so does hunting, but I don't see a whole lot of people here lining up to stop.
Post by: ellensburgpo on February 11, 2013, 04:09:12 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on February 11, 2013, 04:10:57 PM
Post by: h20hunter on February 11, 2013, 04:11:08 PM
Post by: Crunchy on February 11, 2013, 04:16:58 PM
Post by: Curly on February 11, 2013, 05:37:38 PM
I don't think an officer is violating the person's rights by simply asking him his name and age or asking for ID. Once they find out that he is legally able to posses a pistol, then he can be on his way.........(at least that is how I see it).
Actually Curly they are.
Only in a police state do you have to show ID, you have the freedom to be anonymous in the United State. We are a nation of laws. Unless they are making a "terry stop" based on probable cause, only they do have the right to detain you. Especially in a digital age every time you show an officer and id it can be logged and even placed on the police blotter, "so and so was carrying a gun, was released." Being anonymous is something to cherish, because it really is freedom.
What if the guy open carrying a pistol didn't appear to be old enough to be legally in possession? Wouldn't a check of his ID be within the rights of the officer to check his age? :dunno:
Post by: JLS on February 11, 2013, 06:20:49 PM
I don't think an officer is violating the person's rights by simply asking him his name and age or asking for ID. Once they find out that he is legally able to posses a pistol, then he can be on his way.........(at least that is how I see it).
Actually Curly they are.
Only in a police state do you have to show ID, you have the freedom to be anonymous in the United State. We are a nation of laws. Unless they are making a "terry stop" based on probable cause, only they do have the right to detain you. Especially in a digital age every time you show an officer and id it can be logged and even placed on the police blotter, "so and so was carrying a gun, was released." Being anonymous is something to cherish, because it really is freedom.
What if the guy open carrying a pistol didn't appear to be old enough to be legally in possession? Wouldn't a check of his ID be within the rights of the officer to check his age? :dunno:
Yes, and that's where reasonable suspicion comes in. You just described a circumstance where a cop should have reasonable suspicion that the person packing is not legally old enough, and would ID him to verify his age. No different than when you're drinking a beer on the lake and the SO asks you for ID to verify you're 21.
Post by: kenzmad on February 11, 2013, 06:39:31 PM
Post by: 3nails on February 11, 2013, 07:22:50 PM
Problem with that is that we dont have ID cards here. We may or maynot have a drivers license but that is to used to prove you are legal to drive a car. A drivers license is not an ID card and we are not required to carry ID.Great point.
Post by: JLS on February 11, 2013, 07:30:36 PM
Problem with that is that we dont have ID cards here. We may or maynot have a drivers license but that is to used to prove you are legal to drive a car. A drivers license is not an ID card and we are not required to carry ID.
ID'ing is not always in the literal sense. It may be done verbally also.
Also, your driver's license in most cases is also a valid ID. Isn't it what people use to get into bars? Vote? Buy a firearm?
Post by: Dan-o on February 11, 2013, 07:31:23 PM
The guy was pretty belligerently pressing his rights....
Post by: BowForElk on February 11, 2013, 10:28:23 PM
Post by: BIGINNER on February 11, 2013, 10:30:00 PM
The part that I didn't like was when the Officers wouldn't let him continue his walk to wherever he was going. They don't have the right to tell him where he can and cannot go and if he wanted to park his car somewhere and walk to a chinese restaurant down the road he can and they can't tell him he can't.
thats exactly what i was getting at.
Post by: Nilehunter on February 11, 2013, 10:40:01 PM
:yeah::yeah:I don't think an officer is violating the person's rights by simply asking him his name and age or asking for ID. Once they find out that he is legally able to posses a pistol, then he can be on his way.........(at least that is how I see it).
Actually Curly they are.
Only in a police state do you have to show ID, you have the freedom to be anonymous in the United State. We are a nation of laws. Unless they are making a "terry stop" based on probable cause, only they do have the right to detain you. Especially in a digital age every time you show an officer and id it can be logged and even placed on the police blotter, "so and so was carrying a gun, was released." Being anonymous is something to cherish, because it really is freedom.
they need to have probable cause that he has commited a crime...in no way had did that cop have any probable cause that this man had broken the law... the cop should have shook the mans hand for being a proud american and exercising his rights! we could use more people like that guy!
This (used loosly) officer considered: 1. a call from a concerned citizen 2. someone exercising their rights, probable cause. They were wrong to not let him go about his business (after the few basic questions). :twocents:
Post by: JoeE on February 11, 2013, 10:47:28 PM
Post by: GoPlayOutside on February 11, 2013, 10:47:42 PM
2. Open Carry Guy = A-hole
Post by: Turner89 on February 11, 2013, 10:59:55 PM
OK....i've typed up a few comments but needed to delete them because they come back to me wanting to put the guy down for being inciteful. I think the repsonse by the cops if fairly typical and to be expected. The police have to respond to all the phone calls they would get in this situation. By the time they get there I'm sure they are plenty irritated and are going to be butt heads to the guy. Not something I would do but yes, it does get you thinking about the reponse you would get if it came down to it.Yea, I'm sure your going to get a visit by the cops, and they may be irriatated. But they better know what they'er talking about. What a bunch of bone heads. I usually give cops the benefit of doubt 99% of the time. Maybe I'm so quick to side with the kid due to the threat on the 2 amendment. The loud mouth cop was embarrassing