Post by: lokidog on February 20, 2013, 10:11:12 PM
Post by: Stilly bay on February 20, 2013, 10:34:38 PM
great pheasant dogs, great duck dogs, and super family dogs.
second choice would be what I have now, a medium sized "upland" lab that can run all day in the field or sit for hours on end in a blind.
although someday I would really like a gorgeous field bred golden, very nice dogs!
Post by: pens fan on February 20, 2013, 11:20:56 PM
Half the size of a lab...twice the heart :tup:
Post by: lokidog on February 20, 2013, 11:23:02 PM
In one word.....BOYKIN.
Half the size of a lab...twice the heart :tup:
Put it in Other, I couldn't figure out how to add more categories, as they would have been a seperate category. A friend had a couple of nice ones.
Post by: Mr56Jeep on February 21, 2013, 07:23:03 AM
Post by: Dhoey07 on February 21, 2013, 10:10:53 AM
I know my lab can handle the cold, stay still in a blind, beat the brush, retieve anything i tell him too, and be a gentleman at home. Oh yeah, and i didn't have to wait a year to hunt with him. They'll hunt pretty much out of the box
Post by: JJD on February 21, 2013, 10:14:03 AM
Post by: Goldeneye on February 21, 2013, 10:19:52 AM
As far as another breed that's not what you see every day. I used to know a guy that hunted standard poodles. Those dogs were darn good hunters as well in most conditions.
Post by: bobcat on February 21, 2013, 10:56:50 AM
Post by: benbo30 on February 21, 2013, 11:27:28 AM
The Labrador is the most popular dog in the country for a reason.:yeah:
Post by: Stilly bay on February 21, 2013, 11:44:57 AM
The Labrador is the most popular dog in the country for a reason.
I just wish they would dry out a little faster
Post by: singleshot12 on February 21, 2013, 11:47:19 AM
The Labrador is the most popular dog in the country for a reason.
I just wish they would dry out a little faster
Just gotta feed em salmon and eggs so their coat stays oily :twocents: :tup:
Post by: AspenBud on February 21, 2013, 11:54:01 AM
But if I was going to have a flusher it would be a field bred English Cocker.
I don't care for labs, I've seen a lot that like to fight and they can be a little too in your face. That said, I think most would be hard pressed to find a better utility breed. It may not always be pretty, but they can do it all and there is a line of lab for everyone.
Post by: Curly on February 21, 2013, 11:57:21 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 22, 2013, 03:26:23 PM
The Labrador is the most popular dog in the country for a reason.
I just wish they would dry out a little faster
Just gotta feed em salmon and eggs so their coat stays oily :twocents: :tup:
Pautzke's Red Balls o' Fire
Post by: weathergirl on February 22, 2013, 09:47:14 PM
Anyway, just curious.... :dunno:
Post by: npaull on February 22, 2013, 09:48:37 PM
Post by: thatkidwho on February 23, 2013, 01:03:05 AM
Post by: rosscrazyelk on February 23, 2013, 07:25:27 AM
In one word.....BOYKIN.
Half the size of a lab...twice the heart :tup:
right there with ya on that one. Love my boykin
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on February 23, 2013, 07:35:50 AM
Post by: huntingfool7 on February 23, 2013, 11:54:40 AM
Personally I think a golden retriever is just about the perfect dog, and could never imagine being without one. I genuninely am curious, though, why anyone would choose a lab over a golden retriever? Not that labs are bad, but I'm curious why people would choose one when they could have a golden retriever? I think the only thing that has been mentioned is fur...maybe we haven't ever had really furry ones though.Like Springers (my pick), there are field bred and show bred lines. Pick the wrong line for your intended pursuits and you'll most likely be disappointed.
Anyway, just curious.... :dunno:
Field bred springers have a different look than show dogs. Less hair, lighter build, head shape and ear location is different.
I don't know what BH45 had but my chocolate lab was harder headed than the three springers I currently own combined with rocks left over. God bless her, she was a good dog...hard headed but good.
Post by: Stilly bay on February 23, 2013, 12:41:24 PM
I don't know what BH45 had but my chocolate lab was harder headed than the three springers I currently own combined with rocks left over. God bless her, she was a good dog...hard headed but good.
too many people let generalizations, anecdotes, and singular personal experiences determine their choices instead of facts or research.
:yeah: excellent point! the difference between many bench strains of dog and field strains are huge. they might as well be different breeds
Like Springers (my pick), there are field bred and show bred lines. Pick the wrong line for your intended pursuits and you'll most likely be disappointed.
Post by: shootem on May 25, 2013, 12:11:11 AM
Post by: RadSav on May 25, 2013, 02:15:14 AM
I've been blessed to have two of the finest Springers to ever hunt the uplands - Upland Dancer Rescue (Dancer) and Sandy River Rescue (Sandy). I bet I spent less than five days training each of these girls. They were just born perfect hunters and super lovers. And I rescued both of them from hard handed abusive A-Holes before they were seven months. In each case I told the previous owner he could have the dog back if he could successfully kick my arse. Neither low life took the challenge and we ended up with two of the best kids life could bless a man with. Sure wish at least one of those guys had tried. They needed a serious beating. I think it would have been worth the jail time. Beat a puppy half to death...what kind of low life does that?
Anyway (pause for temper cool down), I can't speak highly enough about the springers. Only draw backs I've found is their ears aren't too blackberry brier tough, they dry slowly hunting snows on the ice, two of them in one house can produce the loose hair volume of five normal dogs, and if you hunt in an area with a lot of seeds and burrs you had better cut them 3/8" or shorter or most of your day will be lost picking crud out of their fur. They aren't going to win any swimming contest either.
I can't imagine a better pet, a better hunting companion or a better K-9 child. Dang I loved that Dancer dog. And that love hasn't been lost on the two girls we have now. Even if the little Sandy dog wasn't such a good hunter she would still be one of the best girls ever. Just wonderful, wonderful dogs.
I know this isn't the "Show you bird dog" thread so sorry for getting carried away. But here is a paint/picture of the two current springers, Upland Skagit and Sandy River Rescue, chasing a rooster out of the blackberries. Notice the briers catching on Sandy's ear. Other than age that's about the only thing that has ever slowed my springers down.
Post by: Special T on May 25, 2013, 07:26:01 AM
Post by: AWS on May 25, 2013, 01:03:22 PM
When you watch dogs doing water work it is amazing how much they use their tail.
As you can tell from my handle you know my leaning.
Post by: wildweeds on May 25, 2013, 04:45:40 PM
And you forgot the part about them being excellent Co pilot truck dogs.
A freind of mine is involved with dog rescue/foster dogging she placed a purebred/papered 5 month old springer in a foster home earlier this week because............. the dog chased the owners cat.Should the dog need a home and the foster folks don't keep him(Their dog just died and they are in rebound mode).The dog will come up for adoption.I told my freind it would be a shame that a hunting dog with drive to not be in a home that hunts.
everyone should own an English Springer Spaniel at least once during their hunting career. they can do any thing a labrador can except maybe bucking waves in big water situations. pheasants don't stand a chance against a springer.
great pheasant dogs, great duck dogs, and super family dogs.
Post by: RadSav on May 25, 2013, 05:21:39 PM
imagine my surprise when the guy with the springer called to brag that the springer outdid the labrador sea duck hunting every time because the lab was a pansy in the big water.
That's something I have never seen. I've seen some labs that couldn't smell the water they were swimming in, but never one fearful of it. That's crazy! His daddy must be so proud :chuckle:
Post by: Stilly bay on May 25, 2013, 05:41:27 PM
imagine my surprise when the guy with the springer called to brag that the springer outdid the labrador sea duck hunting every time because the lab was a pansy in the big water.
That's something I have never seen. I've seen some that couldn't smell the water they were swimming in, but never one fearful of it. That's crazy! His daddy must be so proud :chuckle:
yeah, there are plenty of sad stories about springers retrieving ducks in the big water until they succumbed to hypothermia and drowned because their owners didn't have enough sense to stop them.
Springers are amazing dogs with tons of heart and drive but everything has its limits.
Post by: jetjockey on May 27, 2013, 05:06:15 AM
Post by: akirkland on May 27, 2013, 09:21:40 AM
Post by: Stilly bay on May 27, 2013, 12:12:58 PM
That's what good vests with flotation are for. I'd be willing to bet there are more labs that have lost their lives due to the same thing..... We hunt over springers every year for pheasants in PA. Those dogs are awesome. I've also hunted over a fair amount of labs, and Id take a springer every day in the uplands. I know this will stir the pot with many, but labs do not impress me in the upland fields. Plus I love the size of a well bred field springer. 40-50 lbs is nearly perfect IMO.
ANY dog hunting ducks in severe winter conditions needs a good vest for insulation and floatation. I don't care if its a German shorthair or a Chessie! Some dogs may handle the cold much better than others but they all can get hypothermia once they are wet.
Sorry but, Springers just aren't built for extreme conditions like sea duck hunting in the dead of winter, even with a vest. They can technically do it but it doesn't mean they should.
I do agree that most labs have nothing on a Springer Spaniel in the uplands. They are the masters of pheasants in heavy brush and one of the baddest bird dogs you could ever want.
Post by: Bullkllr on May 27, 2013, 09:02:21 PM
Personally I think a golden retriever is just about the perfect dog, and could never imagine being without one. I genuninely am curious, though, why anyone would choose a lab over a golden retriever? Not that labs are bad, but I'm curious why people would choose one when they could have a golden retriever? I think the only thing that has been mentioned is fur...maybe we haven't ever had really furry ones though.
Anyway, just curious.... :dunno:
I've heard it has been somewhat difficult to find field-bred goldens for quite awhile, whereas field-bred labs are all over the place.
Most will say labs are "tougher"...
Labs absolutely dominate field trials compared to goldens and all other retriever breeds combined.
And then there's the coat. You could drop my yellow lab in a festering mud bog full of thistles, and in 10 minutes he would automatically be spotless.
Post by: MadMooner on May 28, 2013, 09:46:13 AM
Smaller dog- Spaniel
Post by: AspenBud on May 28, 2013, 12:25:48 PM
Personally I think a golden retriever is just about the perfect dog, and could never imagine being without one. I genuninely am curious, though, why anyone would choose a lab over a golden retriever? Not that labs are bad, but I'm curious why people would choose one when they could have a golden retriever? I think the only thing that has been mentioned is fur...maybe we haven't ever had really furry ones though.
Anyway, just curious.... :dunno:
I've heard it has been somewhat difficult to find field-bred goldens for quite awhile, whereas field-bred labs are all over the place.
Most will say labs are "tougher"...
Labs absolutely dominate field trials compared to goldens and all other retriever breeds combined.
And then there's the coat. You could drop my yellow lab in a festering mud bog full of thistles, and in 10 minutes he would automatically be spotless.
Labs are also a more diverse breed than goldens. There really is a line of lab for everyone.
I tend to look at it like this. Chessies, Labradors, Springers, English Cockers, Pointers, English Setters, Brittanys, German Shorthairs, and German Wirehaired Pointers are arguably the most popular gun dog breeds among bird hunters in this country. There is a reason for that, lots of choices in breeding and they just work.
When you get into the more obscure breeds, or breeds that are less popular as hunting dogs, you have to really look to find what you want and be prepared to open your wallet. That's not meant to detract from those breeds, it's just that you have less choice within them than you do with the aforementioned.
Post by: pens fan on May 31, 2013, 11:06:17 PM
So you guys with experience, what is up with the Boykin Spaniel? They seem like an interesting breed.They are half the size of a lab and can do anything a lab can. Or a chessie, or a golden, or an english. BUT, they are spaniels...totally different personality. They are not for everyone.
Post by: pens fan on May 31, 2013, 11:12:24 PM
Post by: cem3434 on May 31, 2013, 11:37:16 PM
Big dog- Chessie
Smaller dog- Spaniel
All around dog - Lab
Post by: cem3434 on May 31, 2013, 11:40:38 PM
So you guys with experience, what is up with the Boykin Spaniel? They seem like an interesting breed.They are half the size of a lab and can do anything a lab can. Or a chessie, or a golden, or an english. BUT, they are spaniels...totally different personality. They are not for everyone.
Overall they are great dogs, but they can be tempermental in the field. My buddy has one and its great in the upland fields, but if another dog beats him to a retreive then he is useless the rest of the day. They are also a little undersized for retrieving geese.
Post by: clindsayrun on May 31, 2013, 11:47:25 PM
He's a scosh small to be wrasslin with those big honkers though... but don't tell him that... he put on more than one great show trying to drag one back to the blind.
I lived in Seattle from '99-'03 and he was a great dog to hunk with out at Cherry Valley and Stillwater. We'd get birds up that other peoples dogs would miss, and we used to have quite a few guys ask for our dog to work out in front of them. Great memories!
He's 15 years old now, and I think fall 2012 might have been his last season... he'd work for a while, but we mostly were just out to walk. He's all heart though.
I'll stick to slightly larger dogs from here on out. Have a spastic lab now and am interested in a springer once my Novi's gone.
Post by: Special T on June 01, 2013, 07:54:23 AM
Post by: Stilly bay on June 01, 2013, 11:31:29 AM
My Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever was/is a heck of a duck and pheasant dog.
Post some pics! Duck tollers are cool dogs.
Post by: Bullkllr on June 02, 2013, 07:38:28 AM
Labs dominating the field trials is a reality. But when there are 400 dogs in a trial, and 390 of them are labs...well...you figure the odds.
So, if someone wanted to win a retriever trial, and they could choose any retriever breed...I'm thinking there must be reasons beyond availability/popularity.
Kinda like if I wanted to put together a basketball team... I wouldn't get a bunch of short fat w**** guys, even though more of them are available
Not that field trial traits are the only things to look for in a personal hunting dog. Speed and "desire" labs have in spades.
Post by: Stilly bay on June 02, 2013, 11:43:14 AM
Labs dominating the field trials is a reality. But when there are 400 dogs in a trial, and 390 of them are labs...well...you figure the odds.
So, if someone wanted to win a retriever trial, and they could choose any retriever breed...I'm thinking there must be reasons beyond availability/popularity.
Kinda like if I wanted to put together a basketball team... I wouldn't get a bunch of short fat w**** guys, even though more of them are available
Not that field trial traits are the only things to look for in a personal hunting dog. Speed and "desire" labs have in spades.
I think you see more labs because they have been bred to mature and be trained quickly and most of them can handle a lot of pressure and bounce back, thats a great combo for pro trainers and trailers that have to work with a truck load of dogs everyday and produce results. For many of the same reasons you see english pointers dominating pointing trials.
The right trainer with the right dog -from any breed- could potentially win a trial, its just with labs there is a much bigger pool to choose from and lots of pro trainers trailers want to hedge their bets since you don't make a name for yourself with losses. on the flip side decades ago there was a much bigger pool of chessies and other breeds that are somewhat obscure today and labs were almost a minority compared to today.
On the same note flooding the field trial world with labs ( mostly black labs btw) can cause some misconceptions.
I lost count of how many times I heard that chocolate labs just aren't as capable as blacks because they aren't winning nearly as many trials. fact of the matter is there aren't nearly as many chocolate labs as black labs so of course there will be fewer in the winners circle.
Or that because Labs are winning they are the only breed that can.
Dog people and hunters love to cling to misconceptions and old wives tales , and many will -for the most part- continue to follow what is working for the other guy with all those ribbons on his wall or all those amazing pics on the internet and the lab will continue to grow in popularity while there are many other breeds that are overlooked.
Post by: wildweeds on June 02, 2013, 12:41:22 PM
Post by: Stilly bay on June 02, 2013, 01:05:57 PM
It's got to be the pointer/setter guy in me that has to have the stand the hair up on the back of your neck lightning.
it is kind of harder to spot style or flash in a retriever than a pointy breed, but you know it when you see it. Kind of like good music, it doesn't matter what genre it is, when its good its good! Sounds like the dog you described wasn't so good.
You are right about the junk Labs of course, with no other hunting breed ( Goldens notwithstanding) is it more important to do a adequate research before buying, and to actually know what it is you are researching.
Post by: wildweeds on June 02, 2013, 05:13:17 PM
1 dog out of the dozen I watched,had zip,style,BIG water entry,enthusiasm,the other 11 were either Junk,overtrained into submission and a dislike for the work. 1 for a dozen is about 1%,I guess I'm a 1% er when it comes to dogs.
It's got to be the pointer/setter guy in me that has to have the stand the hair up on the back of your neck lightning.
it is kind of harder to spot style or flash in a retriever than a pointy breed, but you know it when you see it. Kind of like good music, it doesn't matter what genre it is, when its good its good! Sounds like the dog you described wasn't so good.
You are right about the junk Labs of course, with no other hunting breed ( Goldens notwithstanding) is it more important to do a adequate research before buying, and to actually know what it is you are researching.
Post by: huntingfool7 on June 02, 2013, 08:53:28 PM
Post by: JJD on June 03, 2013, 07:11:55 AM
Plenty of junk labs too,I watched about a dozen dogs go at a test yesterday,Of a dozen I considered only one to be a candidate for ownership by me.I don't find it appealing to saunter up to waters edge,slip in easy,swim so slow that satelite navigation is almost needed to even see forward progress,then return at the same speed hit the bank,drop the bird,shake off,and then need to be commanded to pick the bird back up. It's got to be the pointer/setter guy in me that has to have the stand the hair up on the back of your neck lightning.Yup, popularity breeds some real garbage as a result of $$ to be made. As in one dog breeding another = $$.
However, some of what you describe at the test is a result of training. I have had a number of dogs who do the work just fine. Only had one that would have made it in the "trials" games, but all my dogs worked well, obeyed commands and worked with great enthusiasm. I kind of get the impression that some guys are in such a hurry to get results, that they push their dogs too hard and kill much of their drive. I've seen a few so beaten down that they would leave the line with their tail between their legs. I think the trainers who are gifted, read a dog well enough to know how much pressure they can take and still retain enthusiasm for the work.
Post by: Stilly bay on June 03, 2013, 12:28:49 PM
Quote
I guess I'm a 1% er when it comes to dogs.
They make a patch for that.
Yup, popularity breeds some real garbage as a result of $$ to be made. As in one dog breeding another = $$.
However, some of what you describe at the test is a result of training. I have had a number of dogs who do the work just fine. Only had one that would have made it in the "trials" games, but all my dogs worked well, obeyed commands and worked with great enthusiasm. I kind of get the impression that some guys are in such a hurry to get results, that they push their dogs too hard and kill much of their drive.
Too bad you don't end up making much $ if you do everything the right way.
The trend for the last -40 years :dunno:?? - is to breed for faster maturing dogs that can be trained and more or what some call finished at a very early age (1-2 years) lots of breeders have been selling it in seminars, books, and videos successfully because people want their bird dog RIGHT NOW. The trouble is "Joe average guy" who thinks he knows a little something about training buys a book or a DVD and works his new puppy into the ground with constant drills without focusing on fun . The thought of making a Lab unenthusiastic about retrieving is just nuts! but it happens all the time because people are trying to rush through the training process and all they end up with is a sloppy dog with a chit load of bad habits. Few people seem to realize with pups that ONE good retrieve is better than a 12 sloppy ones!!!
I think the trainers who are gifted, read a dog well enough to know how much pressure they can take and still retain enthusiasm for the work.
:yeah: I think a lot of people can get away without being a gifted trainer as long as they are a patient trainer. Despite what ever gimmick training DVD you just bought, every dog is on a different schedule/learning curve and if you can't take enought time to figure out what that schedule is then you are not going to get the results you are after.
When starting out I wish some one would tell me the two most important things to focus on with your pup isPressure and enthusiasm
not pointing or retrieving or drills. If you make sure you are giving just the right amount of pressure, not too much or too little. And monitor the pup's enthusiasm like its a diabetic's blood sugar level, every thing else is just a walk in the park.
Post by: Special T on June 03, 2013, 04:03:07 PM