Post by: Jonathan_S on February 28, 2013, 11:44:14 AM
What the heck am I missing? Everything I read limits the .45-70 to short ranges of 150 yards and under (usually well under)
I bought my wife a .45-70 1895 Guide Gun for bear hunting - yeah she's tough enough to shoot it - and I've reloaded several batches up to 57 grns H4198 with a 300 grain hollow point.
This gun is very accurate at one hundred yards, more accurate than I am certainly and I corralled 1" groups the other day.
At 150 yards, it still shot 3" and 4" groups with iron sights. Now that 300 grain bullet is no pacifist and I know it's got the punch to knock the vitals out of a pickup truck, let alone a black bear, at 200+ yards.
Why does everyone discredit this as a a 200 yard gun?
Confused...
Post by: pianoman9701 on February 28, 2013, 11:46:20 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on February 28, 2013, 11:47:02 AM
Post by: h20hunter on February 28, 2013, 11:49:43 AM
Post by: washingtonmuley on February 28, 2013, 11:51:41 AM
I always thought of it as more of a longer range, buffalo-type gun. I would think 200-300 yards is where it shines. got an arch like a jump shot, but... :dunno:It is going to drop close to 3' out at 300 yards. If you are going to shoot that kind of distance I would put some glass on it.
Post by: Alchase on February 28, 2013, 11:57:06 AM
Does not mean they were not effective though.
Post by: Fl0und3rz on February 28, 2013, 11:58:31 AM
That's why I think of these as more appropriate for short range brush gun snap shooting. I don't want an optic on a lever gun.
If you don't already have one, check out the XS ghost ring sight. If you intend to scope it, I believe they make one with a rail for optics mount, as well.
Post by: jrebel on February 28, 2013, 12:02:49 PM
With all that said I have the xlr version with the longer barrel. I would not shoot the guide gun at 300 yards. :twocents:
I am going off my memory hear so my trajectory number may be a little off, but not by much. I can look when at home to see my notes made on the gun.
Johnny
Post by: washingtonmuley on February 28, 2013, 12:13:32 PM
I do 47 grains IMR 4198, and its a thumper with a 300 JHP. Without some sort of calibrated sight, I stick to under 200 yards. It could probably do farther, but you'd have to know your trajectory and be good with your range estimation and sight adjustment.I put an AO ghost ring site with a 2.5 power leupold scope on mine and I love it. I have only shot it out to 100 yards but might have to break her out again and see what she can do at longer distances.
That's why I think of these as more appropriate for short range brush gun snap shooting. I don't want an optic on a lever gun.
If you don't already have one, check out the XS ghost ring sight. If you intend to scope it, I believe they make one with a rail for optics mount, as well.
Post by: PolarBear on February 28, 2013, 12:17:46 PM
Post by: Fl0und3rz on February 28, 2013, 12:27:55 PM
I do 47 grains IMR 4198, and its a thumper with a 300 JHP. Without some sort of calibrated sight, I stick to under 200 yards. It could probably do farther, but you'd have to know your trajectory and be good with your range estimation and sight adjustment.I put an AO ghost ring site with a 2.5 power leupold scope on mine and I love it. I have only shot it out to 100 yards but might have to break her out again and see what she can do at longer distances.
That's why I think of these as more appropriate for short range brush gun snap shooting. I don't want an optic on a lever gun.
If you don't already have one, check out the XS ghost ring sight. If you intend to scope it, I believe they make one with a rail for optics mount, as well.
Nice.
Here's mine.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=60755.0;attach=185207;image)
Zeroed at 175 yards. +5 at 100 and -3" at 200. I could probably flatten that by getting some more velocity out of it.
Post by: jrebel on February 28, 2013, 12:36:29 PM
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on February 28, 2013, 12:46:20 PM
I can tell you that at 100 yards they have plenty of power to go completely through someone's house (mine) and exit the opposite side with very little expansion and continue on.
There HAS to be a story here....... :dunno:
Post by: h20hunter on February 28, 2013, 12:47:48 PM
Post by: sirmissalot on February 28, 2013, 12:54:43 PM
I do 47 grains IMR 4198, and its a thumper with a 300 JHP. Without some sort of calibrated sight, I stick to under 200 yards. It could probably do farther, but you'd have to know your trajectory and be good with your range estimation and sight adjustment.I put an AO ghost ring site with a 2.5 power leupold scope on mine and I love it. I have only shot it out to 100 yards but might have to break her out again and see what she can do at longer distances.
That's why I think of these as more appropriate for short range brush gun snap shooting. I don't want an optic on a lever gun.
If you don't already have one, check out the XS ghost ring sight. If you intend to scope it, I believe they make one with a rail for optics mount, as well.
Nice.
Here's mine.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=60755.0;attach=185207;image)
Zeroed at 175 yards. +5 at 100 and -3" at 200. I could probably flatten that by getting some more velocity out of it.
Sweet, what sights are those? Also, I've seen the big hoops on the lever before, never have understood the purpose of it, just more room for gloves?
Post by: Fl0und3rz on February 28, 2013, 12:57:11 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on February 28, 2013, 12:57:47 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on February 28, 2013, 12:59:47 PM
Post by: BigGoonTuna on February 28, 2013, 01:34:29 PM
i'd love to have one, but haven't been able to justify buying one unless i can get into reloading...that ain't gonna happen right now with the shortage of components.
Post by: lokidog on February 28, 2013, 03:01:43 PM
Post by: Fl0und3rz on February 28, 2013, 04:10:13 PM
I bought my wife a .45-70 1895 Guide Gun for bear hunting - yeah she's tough enough to shoot it - and I've reloaded several batches up to 57 grns H4198 with a 300 grain hollow point.
I just noted that a book max load for H4198 and a Hornady 300 grn HP is 51.2 for 2,000 fps out of a 22" barrel.
:yike:
Post by: et1702 on February 28, 2013, 04:45:35 PM
I've got a Browning HiWall 1885 single-shot in 45-70. Very accurate gun w/iron sights only! If you don't reload, there are also a lot of magnum (+P) type loads that can be shot out of the newer guns (e.g., Garrett, BuffaloBore, etc.) that will flatten your trajectory somewhat. But, probably not the older lever guns, or Springfield trap doors.
ET
Post by: yorketransport on February 28, 2013, 07:26:34 PM
I bought my wife a .45-70 1895 Guide Gun for bear hunting - yeah she's tough enough to shoot it - and I've reloaded several batches up to 57 grns H4198 with a 300 grain hollow point.
I just noted that a book max load for H4198 and a Hornady 300 grn HP is 51.2 for 2,000 fps out of a 22" barrel.
:yike:
Hodgdon lists a 60.0gr max for a 300gr bullet and H4198 as a the max lever gun load. I used to run 58gr and a 300gr bullet in my BFR revolver.
I'll agree with the others that the only real limitation that the 45-70 has at extended range is the trajectory. Once you figure it out though, I don't think you'd have any trouble knocking a critter off it's feet with a well placed 300gr bullet at 300 yards. :tup:
Andrew
Post by: Fl0und3rz on March 01, 2013, 01:56:15 AM
Hodgdon lists a 60.0gr max for a 300gr bullet and H4198 as a the max lever gun load. I used to run 58gr and a 300gr bullet in my BFR revolver.
Right you are, for the 300 gr. Sierra HP. Just saying that it appears to be quite the fire-breathing load out of a 18.5" guide gun. (Sierra lists 2200 fps for 54.3 gr. and 22" on the Marlin.) And even more so on a BFR.
Post by: RG on March 01, 2013, 05:05:38 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on March 01, 2013, 06:03:06 AM
Post by: MikeWalking on March 01, 2013, 06:15:51 AM
The 45-70 was developed by the Army with the idea of hitting a man size target at 600 yards as well as take down a horse at closer ranges. It was what they thought they needed for fighting with tribes on the plains.
Post by: pianoman9701 on March 01, 2013, 06:52:20 AM
I've loved all my 1895's. Especially with a new trigger.
The 45-70 was developed by the Army with the idea of hitting a man size target at 600 yards as well as take down a horse at closer ranges. It was what they thought they needed for fighting with tribes on the plains.
Interesting info. Thanks.
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 01, 2013, 10:16:18 AM
Post up a pic.
Pics of what? Not that it matters because I haven't taken any yet but I will in the future :)
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 01, 2013, 10:24:15 AM
I shot 40 rounds of 57 grns the other day (OUCH!) and had no sticky extractions or problems of any sort.
Post by: RG on March 01, 2013, 05:07:37 PM
in my opinion the reason the 45-70 gets the inaccurate tag is because of the fps so slow much past 100 yards,after the bullet slow down that much it wants to start tumbling no matter the round.its ballistics pure and simple its not a long range gun that can be counted on.
Huh? You don't shoot the factory trap-door springfield loads in any modern guns. You have to handload. I killed an elk over 200 yards, (It took 2 shots, the first one hit below him), and a mule deer at 175. I can assure you the bullets hit point first and no second shot needed.
Post by: Fl0und3rz on March 01, 2013, 05:31:26 PM
Lots of replies, thanks guys. As far as the max for H4198 goes, I read 60 grns was the max, that's what Hodgdon says for modern lever guns. I reloaded a batch at 48 just for her to go plinking with. It would still kill with ease I suppose at 48 but it's definitely still accurate at 57 grns and it will definitely shoot flatter.
I shot 40 rounds of 57 grns the other day (OUCH!) and had no sticky extractions or problems of any sort.
Yeah, ouch! I might consider for myself going a little higher than 47 grains of IMR 4198, because I would like to hit 2,000 fps and get a little flatter trajectory out of the 18.5" barrel.
Oh no! I guess I have to go reload a bunch. But I am definitely not looking forward to shooting more than 20 or so. But it is a fun gun, in any event.
And as far as long range goes, it's all relative to where and how you hunt. In the brush, anything over about 50-75 yards is long range for that type of hunting. Otherwise, I use a scoped modern cartridge rifle.
Post by: Simcoe hunter on March 30, 2013, 11:09:40 PM
in my opinion the reason the 45-70 gets the inaccurate tag is because of the fps so slow much past 100 yards,after the bullet slow down that much it wants to start tumbling no matter the round.its ballistics pure and simple its not a long range gun that can be counted on.
http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook.htm (http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook.htm)
The above will shed some light on the capabilities of this round. Hardly inaccurate, and plenty of power. This is simply an amazing cartridge truth be known.
Post by: high country on March 31, 2013, 05:36:10 AM
Post by: jyerxa on March 31, 2013, 11:56:14 AM
Post by: Heredoggydoggy on March 31, 2013, 12:20:18 PM
Post by: washelkhunter on March 31, 2013, 12:28:46 PM
Post by: threedwizard on March 31, 2013, 12:34:00 PM
Post by: Heredoggydoggy on March 31, 2013, 12:36:10 PM
Got a 444 marlin in the safe. I'll take that over the 45-70 or the 450 marlin.
Yep--great cartridge, yet for some reason, it just never caught on. Years ago a guy I worked with had his new 444 Marlin at the range, and let my buddy try it. He dropped the hammer on an empty chamber, and flinched so badly we nearly died laughing!
Post by: RG on March 31, 2013, 10:48:27 PM
Got a 444 marlin in the safe. I'll take that over the 45-70 or the 450 marlin.
Yep--great cartridge, yet for some reason, it just never caught on. Years ago a guy I worked with had his new 444 Marlin at the range, and let my buddy try it. He dropped the hammer on an empty chamber, and flinched so badly we nearly died laughing!
It's a good cartridge but never had the heavyweight appeal of the 45-70. The 300 and 405 grain bullets gave the 45-70 a lot of punch compared to the 265(?) or 240 grain. It's certainly not that the 444 won't get the job done, it will. 45-70 has the advantage for nostalgic appeal too.
I have a model 94 in .356 Win. and had a Model 71 in .348. The .358 is in the same league. Nobody really knows what to think of the .356 because it's not the old, well known, historic caliber. It's pretty much the same thing though.
Post by: 6x6in6 on March 31, 2013, 10:57:55 PM
Got a 444 marlin in the safe. I'll take that over the 45-70 or the 450 marlin.:yeah: love my trip 4.