Post by: rosscrazyelk on March 02, 2013, 07:28:14 AM
What about you?
Post by: dawn2dusk on March 02, 2013, 04:24:11 PM
Post by: LBES on March 02, 2013, 04:29:16 PM
Post by: jackelope on March 02, 2013, 04:32:04 PM
Post by: RadSav on March 02, 2013, 05:17:12 PM
Three fletch allows you to achieve proper FOC with less weight. It reduces the the amount of noise in flight. It's faster and easier to fletch. And it is effective as long as the total surface of drag exceeds the total surface of drag in your broadhead. The odd cock vane also allows you to consistently orient spline on arrows with soft spline orientation.
Four fletches biggest advantage is clearance and cock rotation as you receive the same clearance on the rest at zero nock placement or 180 degree nock placement. Arrows with bad spline orientation that might not be the best idea. But under most high stress hunting situations it's generally a benefit. The three fletch arrow has 25% less surface of drag than the four fletch arrow. As a result the four fletch arrow generally corrects faster in the initial transfer from static to dynamic. It also helps keep the transfer of energy forward as the arrow passes the apex of the parabolic curve (if you happen to shoot that far).
The absolutes are not always that simple though. And compromises can always be had that eliminate each as a benefit and each as a positive. Take for example max helical -vs- slight offset. A max helical three fletched arrow may very well exceed initial alignment benefits of a slight offset four fletched arrow. And it's improved gyro stability can help the transfer of momentum at the apex of the parabolic curve compared to the slight offset four fletched arrow. However, a four fletched arrow using Max Helical may exhibit too much initial drag and actually start to effect the arrows rate of deceleration as compared to the max helical counter part. Once in complete rotation amount of drag difference is minimal unless your fletching material flutters heavily.
For myself I happily use them both. Though I have to say now that I see so many other people using four fletch it is not as much of an attraction to me as it was when I started using it 27 years ago. For my anal nature arrow spline is an area of mental distress to me. As a result I tend to lean toward the three fletched max helical on all my carbon arrows. And I tend to lean toward the basic helical 90 degree four fletch on all my ACC, FMJ and aluminum arrows.
To me the only absolute decision with fletching is that it should never ever be applied straight.
Post by: MLBowhunting on March 02, 2013, 05:24:27 PM
Post by: bullcrazy on March 03, 2013, 09:11:11 AM
Post by: jackelope on March 03, 2013, 05:23:41 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on March 03, 2013, 05:30:31 PM
Post by: coachcw on March 03, 2013, 05:33:27 PM
Post by: Greg Mullins on April 02, 2013, 07:41:47 PM
Post by: DoubleJ on April 02, 2013, 07:47:55 PM
Post by: RadSav on April 02, 2013, 07:59:08 PM
3 for me because RadSav told me to. Hasn't been an issue so I'm not going to change anything
I did? I've been having a lot of senior moments lately :chuckle: Did I send you some MAX Hunter vanes?
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 02, 2013, 08:00:55 PM
Post by: dreamunelk on April 02, 2013, 08:04:37 PM
Post by: DoubleJ on April 02, 2013, 08:09:05 PM
3 for me because RadSav told me to. Hasn't been an issue so I'm not going to change anything
I did? I've been having a lot of senior moments lately :chuckle: Did I send you some MAX Hunter vanes?
You said if 3 with the 6 degree bend made by my Arizona E-Z Fletch mini was working, don't change.
Here's what you sent me (no lable on the package)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv612%2Fdoublej88%2Fafletch_zpsdbe7312f.jpg&hash=d78e894459abf86a852a6b6f5ac28d911935ceb5)
Post by: RadSav on April 02, 2013, 08:22:13 PM
Post by: DoubleJ on April 02, 2013, 08:23:31 PM
Yeah those are the MAX Hunter vanes. I did not like them as four fletch. A little too big of profile and a little too heavy I think for 4. As a three fletch they are wonderful!!! The extra profile gives as much as most others in 4 fletched so why waste the additional fletch. Blazers I'll take either way and really like them as four, but 3 fletch only with the MAX Hunter IMO.
I love them. They fletch easy and damn near indestructible
Post by: Greg Mullins on May 17, 2013, 08:02:51 PM
Post by: coonhound on May 17, 2013, 08:21:54 PM
Post by: Smossy on May 17, 2013, 08:24:25 PM
Post by: coachcw on May 19, 2013, 09:06:26 PM
Post by: earlmarne on May 19, 2013, 10:37:34 PM
i have moved back recently to a 3 inch vanetec with 575 grains of arrow n 18 percent foc.
i have yet to have an arrow fly as well as my high foc set ups.seem more forgiving of everything.with the exception of yardage estimation.due to overall weight being higher therefore slower
Post by: RadSav on May 20, 2013, 04:11:52 AM
So I played around a bit today with poundage and spine as well as fletchings . I found the new cpxl shot a 250 carbon express at 61 lbs and 29.5 inch draw killer . at 66 lbs the 350 spine arrows only 20 grains heavier fell off quicker . I was shooting really well with the three fletch 250's so I screwed a broad head on one a shuttle t just screwed it on with the factory three fletch and cut the flecthing right off at 40 yards . now in questioning my four fletch set up . maybe because the foc was higher on the 250's ?
At 30" draw length and arrows 29.5" in length you are really pushing the limits of what the 250 can do out of the Insanity CPXL. Not sure I would be that brave with an all graphite arrow. Even the 350 @ 66# is pushing it beyond where it is recommended. With the four fletch and assuming you are using the Blue Streak or Maxima shafts the difference in overall drop at 40 yards between the two different set ups you mention should only be a couple of inches total. And drop per yard at the target should only differ about 1/10th of an inch. So if you are seeing the 350's at 66# dropping off much quicker there has to be a problem somewhere as long as you are not using full helical and quickspins together. FOB is a good bit different and being close to that 12% mark on the 250/61#/3 fletch might be the difference to some small extent. But it could be that you have the bow tuned just right for the extreme paradox in the 250's that is not there in the 350/66# which are closer to a match for your bow than the 250/61#.
Even with 4 fletched Blazers, lightweight Maxima/Blue Streak and a 9.5-10% FOC you should not see any fluflu effect. You are not reaching the apex of the arrows parabolic curve with the four fletch/350/66# until nearly 120 yards. So there should be no issue with three or four until 20 yards one way or the other from that point. I myself would shoot both arrows at 40 yards using the exact same pin setting. If the groups differ more than 2.5" I'd say you are having a tuning or spine related problem not a fletching problem.
Myself, if I were shooting that long of draw length and that long of arrow I would be shooting the 350 at 61# and a 300 spine arrow at 66#. And I would not be worried about FOC or 3-vs-4 until I knew I had any spine issues and bow tuning absolutely perfect.
Post by: boneaddict on May 20, 2013, 05:11:43 AM
Post by: coachcw on May 20, 2013, 06:49:35 AM
Post by: coachcw on May 20, 2013, 06:55:38 AM
Post by: JJD on May 20, 2013, 08:23:41 AM
Post by: RadSav on May 20, 2013, 11:53:18 AM
at 61 lbs my 250 set up is at 295 grains give or take a couple well over the leagal limit , and the 350 set up is at 419grains
Did you mean 395 grains? I've been running programs over and over trying to make sense of what you are seeing. What arrow and are you using a wrap? I'll run a couple more and see if I can make sense of it finally. But so far you got some freaky stuff going on :o
Post by: coachcw on May 20, 2013, 12:09:16 PM
Post by: RadSav on May 20, 2013, 01:26:39 PM
I've been punching in raw shaft weight numbers to make the numbers work out right. And not a dang thing makes sense ;) Even with four fletch the 350/66# should be more efficient. Noise should be a big clue. Between the two there should be only a percentage point different in GR/# and FOC if no wrap is used. Total drop difference at 40 yards 1.1" difference with the 350 being the flatter shooter. Looks like you found a magic spot in paradox in the 250's that you do not have with the 350's. I'm skeptical it will hold long term. That's really, really pushing the limits of the 250!
Does show that you must have some dag gum good form and that CPXL has some fantastic repeatability :tup:
Post by: coachcw on May 20, 2013, 10:26:33 PM
Post by: RadSav on May 20, 2013, 10:36:33 PM
rav , they are full length right now , they are at 29. knock to insert without wraps , I could easily take an inch off but kinda like the 7.5 grains and if I decide to go back to 30 inch draw it might get close. the balance point was at 12.25 inches on a 29.25 inch arrow I didn't figure out the foc math just know it shoots killer , did I say it shoots killer . I've always been a poundage guy but i'm likeing this set up. As far as form of course it's as close to perfict as it can get and not be a machine :chuckle: I'm sure the bowtech has nothing to do with it :dunno:
How are you getting 395 grains from a 29.25" arrow with 7.5 grains per inch? Shouldn't that be 345 grains finished arrow :dunno:
Post by: coachcw on May 20, 2013, 10:48:04 PM
Post by: TommyH on May 20, 2013, 10:56:41 PM
Post by: coachcw on May 20, 2013, 10:59:33 PM
Post by: coachcw on May 20, 2013, 11:00:45 PM
Post by: coachcw on May 20, 2013, 11:07:18 PM
Post by: RadSav on May 20, 2013, 11:43:18 PM
Ok now im mind screwed here I just did the math and came out with 360 grains ! do you have the insert weights , bull dog nocks and blazer weights ? thanks brian . I guess I need to get ahold of a scale . heck maybe the scale was off when I checked the 350's . I wont doubt your math brother .
I'm betting those 250's are older shafts and the 350's are newer shafts :dunno: Only way I can get things to work out where the 250's at 61# shoot flatter than the 350's at 66# is with a variance in nock throat. The older TCX nocks were fitted perfect for todays strings. The more recent ones I've gotten are way too dang tight (I now replace them with Easton Micro Lite nocks). That reflects in speed and trajectory a whole bunch. Much more than one might think. Would be sort of cool to see what would happen if you swap the nocks out and see what happens.
Bull Dog collars should be 4 grains and each Blazer vane should be 6 grains. Standard CE insert is way light at 11 grains (reason I generaly shoot Vibrake inserts in my Blue Streak/Maxima shafts. Though those have changed from 23 grains to Hot Tails @ 16 grains).
Post by: RadSav on May 21, 2013, 12:27:51 AM
my bow scale is one of cabellas and nine turns off a 70 lbs limb it reads 59lbs , it may be off I just figured it was 61. It's crazy to me how todays bows don't seem to lose to much efficancey backing the limbs down . This brings up a point I was gonna make Rav , do you think that I'm getting these results because these are 70lbs limbs backed down to sixty vrs 60s down tight ?
NINE TURNS OUT!!! :chuckle: That would be a 27# reduction in the old days! If that held true today you would be shooting that bow at about 45 pounds. Which would certainly make sense as the 250 spine would then be dead center optimal in spine for the 29.5" CPXL @ 45#. I might have to call the guys at Bowtech tomorrow and see what they have for poundage reduction per turn. I'd do it to one of my Bowtechs, but I'm afraid to. They are shooting just too sic at the moment.
Lightweight max load limbs really are a thing of amazement. We always knew it was advantageous. But when Jennings and Carroll came close to it in the past the limbs just could not take it. The Jennings T-Star was a great shooter, but it was not uncommon for active target shooters to go through multiple sets of limbs in a year. And that wasn't nothing in preload to what you are seeing today. Sometimes modern technology IS a good thing. Not too often in archery but there are times :tup: Max load plus CPX is one heck of a combination and Bowtech has really got it dialed in right now. You really are not loosing much in efficiency these days with a max load limb like PSE, Bowtech CPX, highend Bear and McPherson when taking some reasonable weight off. Most of the inefficiencies come if you don't have the adjustability in the string stops. One of the reasons the new Bear Motive is so impressive with the double adjustable string stops.
If these results were skewed because of the limbs not being tight against the riser you would see a massive improvement in the 350 @ 66# over the 250@61 pounds. And if that were the case I'd not be banging my head against the wall trying to make sense of the numbers and recollections your posting. But what you are posting just makes no freakin sense at all :bash: For seamheads like myself that hurts the brain.
I despise paper tuning! It is so easy to get mislead with paper. You find the right distance and the right spine you can get perfect holes when nothing at all is optimal. Fact that you are getting field points and broadheads to fly together now that impresses me! Good holes in paper doesn't necessarily mean perfect arrow flight. Sort of like getting good arrow flight off the shelf of a longbow. It's not cut past center! So to get a perfect tear in paper you have to match spine perfectly so the archers paradox is timed perfectly. I remember cutting arrows 1/8" at a time to get just the perfect flight from my longbows and older recurves. And even then sometimes broadheads would hit where you wanted sometimes not. It was fun, but a lot of work.
Does Denton have an Easton hand held digital bow scale? I've found those to be scary accurate. They are flipping expensive, but worth every penny. I've even used them to measure the trigger pull on my guns. And they are perfect for setting up Carter true tension releases.
Post by: coachcw on May 21, 2013, 07:16:27 AM
Post by: RadSav on May 21, 2013, 05:20:52 PM
In my bow tech book it says one turn out on each limb equals one pound . I've heard guys talk about the bts being a bit noisy maybe backing the limb out shut it up. My press wont work on this bow so maybe I will swing by the big r in omak and have him time it just to be sure.
Well, 1# per turn would make sense on those bows. They've got more than three times the preload as the older bows so sweet. Probably see less than one pound at full stress and more than 1# at minimum stress with an average of 1#. No need to mess with mine.
I'd still like to hear what you see by swapping nocks. I know at 40 yards I've seen 6-8" difference in POI same bow, same arrow, same point, different Carbon Express TCX nock. Even with a few pounds difference from what you think the 350/66# should be shooting flatter 3 or 4 fletched. If you are seeing variations try that Easton Micro nock. It's a pretty good one. Five years and I've seen not one single variance between color or cavity number. Wish I could say the same for the G-Nock and the TCX nock. I may go back to the ACC Pro for 70 bows in Washington. That would give me the X-Nock - one of my all time favorites.
I have picked up three EZ Green presses for friends over the past few years. I think the retail price has now dropped to below $400. Same press as my expensive one just without the fancy wheel and fancy paint. It's a good one for the money and works well on the pickleforks.
Post by: RadSav on May 21, 2013, 05:24:25 PM
Post by: coachcw on May 21, 2013, 09:27:31 PM
Post by: mossback91 on May 21, 2013, 10:20:25 PM
Everything Ive tried out of my ol hoyt always great though :dunno:
Now to find out what the bear will do!!! :drool:
By the way you guys really hurt my brain throughout most of this thread :bash: Too much tech for me!!! :)
Post by: RadSav on May 21, 2013, 10:54:43 PM
one thing denton told me is these bows don't respond to tiller .
He is correct. Almost impossible to move one cam without moving the other. It's a great system. Combined with the CPX limb it's pretty hard to mess it up. :tup:
Post by: coachcw on May 22, 2013, 01:05:36 PM