Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 02, 2013, 08:00:00 PM
That is way off the chart ...they claim that all the classes in our area are booked solid and if he wants to finish his class he needs to go to Ephrata this weekend ...How can they exspect a person to spend $ 200 in fuel cost just so your son can complete the course ...if there is that many youth waiting to take hunters ed then they should get more instructors to carry the load ....I would be peeeeeeesed ! :dunno: :bash: :bash: what if he failed the course :yike: :yike:
Post by: bigtex on April 02, 2013, 08:01:15 PM
Post by: Bob33 on April 02, 2013, 08:04:36 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 02, 2013, 08:07:02 PM
Post by: jrebel on April 02, 2013, 08:08:41 PM
Why don't you be a solution to the problem and become an instructor :dunno:
Let me give you one reason.....to become an instructor is a pain in the butt!! I completed the mentor program a couple years ago and just needed to be evaluated. I was told the only place to be evaluated was north of Spokane and I had to be there for the entire class. I don't understand that logic....drive 3 hours and stay for 2-3 days to be evaluated on 1-2 hours of instruction. Complete BS if ask me. I have been teaching for the last 15 years and have been hunting for the last 25-30 years. There are multiple classes in my area with senior instructors, why do I need to travel so a certain person can evaluate me. Needless to say I wasted a ton of time and never came away with my instructors liscense. :bash:
Post by: stevemiller on April 02, 2013, 08:19:29 PM
Post by: h2ofowlr on April 02, 2013, 08:32:23 PM
Why don't you be a solution to the problem and become an instructor :dunno:
Let me give you one reason.....to become an instructor is a pain in the butt!! I completed the mentor program a couple years ago and just needed to be evaluated. I was told the only place to be evaluated was north of Spokane and I had to be there for the entire class. I don't understand that logic....drive 3 hours and stay for 2-3 days to be evaluated on 1-2 hours of instruction. Complete BS if ask me. I have been teaching for the last 15 years and have been hunting for the last 25-30 years. There are multiple classes in my area with senior instructors, why do I need to travel so a certain person can evaluate me. Needless to say I wasted a ton of time and never came away with my instructors liscense. :bash:
I helped out in these classes for about 18 years and you have to spend a lot of your personal time to be trained. This is all out of pocket like mentioned. Being an instructor is a thankless job. As you have seen, some guys bash instructors for not letting them in due to being late or missing a class ect. Then you have to deal with all the new rule changes, legal follow through etc. I am surprised anyone wants to do it anymore.
Post by: ghosthunter on April 02, 2013, 08:43:45 PM
Every time the state puts more requirements on instructors they loose instructors.
There are a lot of instructors who never put on a class. They just help with a class.
In my county there are 25 instructors, I know of only five that set up classes. I am one.
The other problem is that many instructors see the Internet class as watered down or a poor excuse for training new hunters so they do not support the online sessions as field evaluators . I do not do on line class evaluations.
Every time the state puts more regulation on volunteer instructors a little bit of the fire is dampened.
The instructor base is aging and younger instructors just are not willing to take on the Responsibilities and jump through the hoops.
April 2012 new polices slayed many instructors.
The public wants a class on their terms, their time,their dates. I often get people calling for a class and want me to call them back when I have a class. I like most instructors do not have the time to call back 50 -75 people for a class that has 25 seats.
I tell folks they really need to take the bull by the horns and do what they need to do to get in a class. Now days kids have so much going on that often a choice has to be made, sports or Hunter Ed.
Anyone who thinks these comments are unfounded should step up and get certified. If you are unwilling for whatever reason , than sit down. :twocents:
Post by: elk247 on April 02, 2013, 09:24:41 PM
Post by: ghosthunter on April 02, 2013, 09:34:47 PM
Post by: NoImpactNoIdea on April 02, 2013, 10:24:41 PM
The shortage of instructors is why they are encouraging Master Hunters to step up.
I hope they do since there won't be any new master hunters any time soon.
Post by: KFhunter on April 02, 2013, 10:33:30 PM
The shortage of instructors is why they are encouraging Master Hunters to step up.
I hope they do since there won't be any new master hunters any time soon.
ya, I looked into MH and dang what a pile of suck that program is.
Post by: elk247 on April 02, 2013, 10:56:51 PM
Pm sentThanks Ghosthunter!
Post by: h2ofowlr on April 02, 2013, 11:33:04 PM
Post by: NoImpactNoIdea on April 02, 2013, 11:44:46 PM
The shortage of instructors is why they are encouraging Master Hunters to step up.
I hope they do since there won't be any new master hunters any time soon.
ya, I looked into MH and dang what a pile of suck that program is.
The program is actually closed to new applicants. I agree with you that it seems like a lot of work...for a patch basically.
Post by: winshooter88 on April 03, 2013, 12:22:17 AM
Post by: huntingfool7 on April 03, 2013, 06:46:29 AM
The shortage of instructors is why they are encouraging Master Hunters to step up.What is being done to encourage this?
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 03, 2013, 07:00:04 AM
Why don't you be a solution to the problem and become an instructor :dunno:
Let me give you one reason.....to become an instructor is a pain in the butt!! I completed the mentor program a couple years ago and just needed to be evaluated. I was told the only place to be evaluated was north of Spokane and I had to be there for the entire class. I don't understand that logic....drive 3 hours and stay for 2-3 days to be evaluated on 1-2 hours of instruction. Complete BS if ask me. I have been teaching for the last 15 years and have been hunting for the last 25-30 years. There are multiple classes in my area with senior instructors, why do I need to travel so a certain person can evaluate me. Needless to say I wasted a ton of time and never came away with my instructors liscense. :bash:
I helped out in these classes for about 18 years and you have to spend a lot of your personal time to be trained. This is all out of pocket like mentioned. Being an instructor is a thankless job. As you have seen, some guys bash instructors for not letting them in due to being late or missing a class ect. Then you have to deal with all the new rule changes, legal follow through etc. I am surprised anyone wants to do it anymore.
It's very cool that you've helped out for 18 years. I just love it. Been doing it for two years now and it's far from thankless for me. Parents appreciate what we do. The kids are so excited about being able to finally get their licenses. And, I love that I'm bringing new blood into hunting. I get very close to choked up when I see a class full of people who are there to learn about the thing (other than my family) I love most in my life - hunting. Teaching about conservation and sportsmanship are my favorites.
I'm taking an NRA RSO course in OR next month so I can help with the live fire, too. I would encourage anyone to sign up and teach. :tup:
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 03, 2013, 07:01:49 AM
The shortage of instructors is why they are encouraging Master Hunters to step up.What is being done to encourage this?
One thing they do is that teaching hours count toward the volunteer hours you need to stay current on the MH program.
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 03, 2013, 07:08:00 AM
Some friends of mine went through the process and became instructors last year. They said that with the classes they had to take and all the assisting in classes and evaluations it took them a year to complete and they had to travel all over the state to get it done. When I went through instructor certification it was a weekend class and then teach one class with an experienced local instructor for evaluation. I have trouble figuring out why anyone would jump through the hoops that they have to now to become an instructor, just to be chewed on by someone who doesn't like how you run your class. An instructor that has taught for years is thinking about quitting because of all the new rules. WDFW seems to like to kick themselves in the behind more and more all the time.
The answer: because we don't want our sport to go away.
The hoops to jump through aren't really all that great and I've never had anyone in the program be anything but thankful that I do it. If I do something wrong, maybe someone suggests I do it differently, but other than that everyone is super positive toward my participation.
What are your priorities? If your priority is to find something that takes no training and effort, then sit home and watch TV. But, if your priority is to give something back for the years of enjoyment you've had hunting and being mentored by your parents and friends, then do what it takes to teach Hunter Education. Pointing fingers at the DFW for not recruiting enough or at Master Hunters for not participating enough while others sit on the sidelines is BS. Do something to make a difference in someone's life.
Post by: D-Rock425 on April 03, 2013, 07:10:27 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 03, 2013, 07:11:25 AM
The shortage of instructors is why they are encouraging Master Hunters to step up.
I hope they do since there won't be any new master hunters any time soon.
ya, I looked into MH and dang what a pile of suck that program is.
That's absolutely the opposite of my experience with the MH hunter program, but this thread is about Hunter Ed. Why don't you teach, KF? You'd have a lot of experience to benefit our young wanna-be hunters. OM me if you're interested.
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 03, 2013, 07:12:22 AM
That's it it's official I'm signing up to be an instructor. I've been thinking about it for about two weeks now.
You're like a super D Rockstar! Awesome. :tup: :tup: :tup: :tup:
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 03, 2013, 07:14:20 AM
Why don't you be a solution to the problem and become an instructor :dunno:Actually I have looked into it ...seems most understand the problem ...I am not into feeding their type rehavior....I do not agree with the way they handle most things ..so why would I want to be a part of it :dunno: :hello:
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 03, 2013, 07:21:12 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 03, 2013, 07:23:17 AM
Why don't you be a solution to the problem and become an instructor :dunno:Actually I have looked into it ...seems most understand the problem ...I am not into feeding their type rehavior....I do not agree with the way they handle most things ..so why would I want to be a part of it :dunno: :hello:
Because it's not about you and it's not about the DFW. It's about getting new blood into hunting before we lose our sport to apathy. And, it's about doing something for someone else purely for that without expecting anything in return. It's true giving.
I have real problems with some of the things the DFW and Wildlife Commission does, as many of you are aware. That doesn't mean that kids who want to hunt in WA should suffer and not have a teacher to take a class.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 03, 2013, 07:37:18 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 03, 2013, 07:45:33 AM
I agree ..then they should do what it takes to make people want to be involved :tup:
Why don't you make some suggestions to them on how to improve recruiting. Even better yet, train to become an instructor. It can't be all "they". Some of it has to be "we". And, I'm not pointing fingers, BH. We all need to take responsibility for those things which are important to us.
Post by: Dick in the Dirt on April 03, 2013, 08:06:23 AM
A person would like to become involved,but with the state nothing but a circle jerk.
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 03, 2013, 08:15:12 AM
I went though the back ground check and a class to the point of having a mentor assigned to me and never heard a word after that. With all the running around that is expected from you to get certified , figured it was going to cost me about $300-400 to jump though all the hoops. As long as the state is involved ,things will never improve.
A person would like to become involved,but with the state nothing but a circle jerk.
Huh? Didn't cost me a cent. When I didn't hear if my certification went through, I called and got it in 2 days.
Post by: huntingfool7 on April 03, 2013, 10:50:26 AM
Some friends of mine went through the process and became instructors last year. They said that with the classes they had to take and all the assisting in classes and evaluations it took them a year to complete and they had to travel all over the state to get it done. When I went through instructor certification it was a weekend class and then teach one class with an experienced local instructor for evaluation. I have trouble figuring out why anyone would jump through the hoops that they have to now to become an instructor, just to be chewed on by someone who doesn't like how you run your class. An instructor that has taught for years is thinking about quitting because of all the new rules. WDFW seems to like to kick themselves in the behind more and more all the time.
The answer: because we don't want our sport to go away.
The hoops to jump through aren't really all that great and I've never had anyone in the program be anything but thankful that I do it. If I do something wrong, maybe someone suggests I do it differently, but other than that everyone is super positive toward my participation.
What are your priorities? If your priority is to find something that takes no training and effort, then sit home and watch TV. But, if your priority is to give something back for the years of enjoyment you've had hunting and being mentored by your parents and friends, then do what it takes to teach Hunter Education. Pointing fingers at the DFW for not recruiting enough or at Master Hunters for not participating enough while others sit on the sidelines is BS. Do something to make a difference in someone's life.
Good post Pianoman, that is a great reason to get involved.
I'm sitting in/assisting with my first class next week.
Post by: stevemiller on April 03, 2013, 11:11:40 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 03, 2013, 11:15:51 AM
Another negative point from what i understand by an instructor that I know personally,You have a lot of legal obligations and recourse if proper action is not taken by you when your an instructor.he said if you see anything wrong while your in the field at the range or whatever and its not reported you have recourse from authorities.Kind of like the hypocritic oath or something. I dont know for a fact but thats what he told me.A lot to expect for a volunteer :twocents:
As far as I know, and I've read the new manual from cover to cover, there's no obligation to do or report anything outside of the course. That would be a personal, moral obligation. There is an obligation to fail someone during the test for any loss of muzzle control, whatsoever and incident reports will be written up after the field test for failing someone. This is my experience only. It may differ slightly from class to class.
Post by: stevemiller on April 03, 2013, 11:17:54 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 03, 2013, 11:21:50 AM
Maybe your right,maybe its actually his excuse not to hunt.he doesnt hunt or shoot.says this is why.
He's not crazy about it like we are. :tup: Sign up to teach the young'uns about hunting. It's really a great big kick in the butt!
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 03, 2013, 11:26:59 AM
I put in the paper work about 2 weeks ago while the family was doing there class. :tup: Have to wait for background and all that stuff then a class schedule.
Right on, Steve! :tup:
Post by: huntingfool7 on April 03, 2013, 01:26:00 PM
Maybe your right,maybe its actually his excuse not to hunt.he doesnt hunt or shoot.says this is why.I'm curious about this. If a guy does not shoot or hunt, why would he become a hunter safety instructor?
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 03, 2013, 01:37:02 PM
Maybe your right,maybe its actually his excuse not to hunt.he doesnt hunt or shoot.says this is why.I'm curious about this. If a guy does not shoot or hunt, why would he become a hunter safety instructor?
Old and bored?
Post by: Blackjaw on April 03, 2013, 01:42:09 PM
Post by: bigtex on April 03, 2013, 04:45:23 PM
Post by: Pinetar on April 03, 2013, 05:57:11 PM
Yes, they did have guns in the class room but they were a complete joke. They were painted hunter orange and most of them hardly worked. Most were mossbergs and all firing pins removed. The pump gun was a struggle to pump, even for the adults. The lever gun did not work and wouldn't feed shells. Some of the safeties did not even work correctly. We were using snap caps obviously not real ammo in the class room. Unfortunately, painted orange they looked like toys. In my opinion we should be teaching our kids with guns that work safely and do not come off looking like a toy but this is what the game dept. issues to them to use.
On the field day, which to my understanding was not mandatory to pass the test (stupid rule) and get your certificate, we had real guns and YES the kids got to fire them. I think these guns were bought by the instructors with monies from the students or parents donated to the cause.
The instructors even had 15 plus archery targets set out in a real wooded scenario for the kids to walk through and set up safe zones of fire and safe gun handling. Again, these guys put a lot of their own time and money into teaching our kids and my hat is off to them. My daughter was a little nervous at the start of the class but she learned a lot and had a great time all because of these instructors. A BIG Thank you to them again.
Post by: Little Red on April 03, 2013, 06:39:45 PM
Post by: Bob33 on April 03, 2013, 07:06:17 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 04, 2013, 06:14:38 AM
I think they are dealing with alot of applications for instructors at the moment. I put mine in quite awhile ago and haven't heard back from anyone.
You can call the program and find out about your application. They are actively looking so it's possible they have misplaced it.
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 04, 2013, 06:25:39 AM
Bowhunter45- To answer your question. My 9yr old daughter just completed hunter safety up in Easton, some of the instructors are members here on Hunt WA. They were AWESOME! Very professional and did an amazing job with the kids. FIRST CLASS! The class was in the evenings and they even fed all the kids every night out of their pockets. On the field day they had a bonfire and hot dog roast, again out of their pockets.
Yes, they did have guns in the class room but they were a complete joke. They were painted hunter orange and most of them hardly worked. Most were mossbergs and all firing pins removed. The pump gun was a struggle to pump, even for the adults. The lever gun did not work and wouldn't feed shells. Some of the safeties did not even work correctly. We were using snap caps obviously not real ammo in the class room. Unfortunately, painted orange they looked like toys. In my opinion we should be teaching our kids with guns that work safely and do not come off looking like a toy but this is what the game dept. issues to them to use.
On the field day, which to my understanding was not mandatory to pass the test (stupid rule) and get your certificate, we had real guns and YES the kids got to fire them. I think these guns were bought by the instructors with monies from the students or parents donated to the cause.
The instructors even had 15 plus archery targets set out in a real wooded scenario for the kids to walk through and set up safe zones of fire and safe gun handling. Again, these guys put a lot of their own time and money into teaching our kids and my hat is off to them. My daughter was a little nervous at the start of the class but she learned a lot and had a great time all because of these instructors. A BIG Thank you to them again.
We have a set of the Mossbergs and they function fairly well. One problem is if they're not maintained - they need to be cleaned and oiled after each class and because they're not fired, this often doesn't occur to people. The live fire isn't mandatory, but we never tell the students that and everyone fires at our classes. We also do a field course using Montana decoys for targets and it's great. The decoys are bought with donations. I like to tell students which animals are legal to hunt (Buck only, Tom only, any elk, etc), and we'll set them up so that they have to maneuver for a shot, or there might be an orange vest way behind the target, barely visible. There might be a legal coyote, but a moose or antelope behind. They don't get fails if they pick the wrong critter or take a stupid shot, but it's a very realistic opportunity for them to practice what's been taught in the classroom.
Like Bob33 said, this is a really rewarding volunteer opportunity. Bob is actually the person who encouraged me to become an instructor and I'm thankful to him for opening me up to it's benefit in my life. Thanks Bob. :tup:
Post by: KFhunter on April 04, 2013, 07:58:56 PM
I hear nothing but horror stories about how hard the instructors are at Colville :o
So the online class will be a backup if it doesn't go well.
(I don't know the instructors in Colville, only word of mouth from parents with kids who've failed from gotcha! type tricks)
I think the Kettle Falls instructors gave it up, they were good ones too I put several kids through there with great results.
Post by: Oldguy on April 04, 2013, 08:19:55 PM
I agree ..then they should do what it takes to make people want to be involved :tup:
Why don't you make some suggestions to them on how to improve recruiting. Even better yet, train to become an instructor. It can't be all "they". Some of it has to be "we". And, I'm not pointing fingers, BH. We all need to take responsibility for those things which are important to us.
I suggest that you contact the Hunter Education hierarchy and let me know how your input gets accepted. You'll get the royal stiff-arm in regard to recruiting if it doesn't fit their program. Instructors are expected to do the recruiting and using sports shows or sports outlets for sigh-ups just aren't valid. Typical of the WDFW is their one track mentality and don't really care what we think.
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 05, 2013, 05:48:46 AM
I agree ..then they should do what it takes to make people want to be involved :tup:
Why don't you make some suggestions to them on how to improve recruiting. Even better yet, train to become an instructor. It can't be all "they". Some of it has to be "we". And, I'm not pointing fingers, BH. We all need to take responsibility for those things which are important to us.
I suggest that you contact the Hunter Education hierarchy and let me know how your input gets accepted. You'll get the royal stiff-arm in regard to recruiting if it doesn't fit their program. Instructors are expected to do the recruiting and using sports shows or sports outlets for sigh-ups just aren't valid. Typical of the WDFW is their one track mentality and don't really care what we think.
Regardless of what the DFW's problem is or what you perceive their problem to be, if we want to keep hunting a viable and current sport, we need new blood. I complain about the DFW constantly. But when it comes to bringing in new blood to the sport that we care so much about, you need to let it go and do something OR accept the fact that hunting will die without our active volunteer participation. This isn't about the DFW. This is about keeping hunting alive for future generations. What is it that you care about more? Being right or being in the woods with your grandchildren and them being in the woods with theirs long after you're gone?
Post by: sledjockey on April 16, 2013, 07:40:37 AM
In dealing with Olympia, it almost makes me shudder at how they create all these issues one one hand and are unwilling to do the small amount of work to fix the issue when offered a solution. I am mailing off my packet tomorrow so we will see how long it takes them to get me processed for the in-services. Considering that I have yet to even been given the names and numbers of the local teaching teams, I am not holding my breath.
When I got my kids set up for hunter's ed, I had to drive from Vancouver to Lake Stevens for their classes, so I definitely feel everyone's pain regarding our current program.
Post by: Oldguy on April 16, 2013, 02:00:07 PM
Another negative point from what i understand by an instructor that I know personally,You have a lot of legal obligations and recourse if proper action is not taken by you when your an instructor.he said if you see anything wrong while your in the field at the range or whatever and its not reported you have recourse from authorities.Kind of like the hypocritic oath or something. I dont know for a fact but thats what he told me.A lot to expect for a volunteer :twocents:
[/quote]
As far as I know, and I've read the new manual from cover to cover, there's no obligation to do or report anything outside of the course. That would be a personal, moral obligation. There is an obligation to fail someone during the test for any loss of muzzle control, whatsoever and incident reports will be written up after the field test for failing someone. This is my experience only. It may differ slightly from class to class.
[/quote]
You might look at page 17 in the manual and read "Reporting Suspected Abuse."
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on April 16, 2013, 02:49:19 PM
Post by: jkononen on April 16, 2013, 03:19:23 PM
Post by: stevemiller on April 20, 2013, 02:03:16 AM
[/quote
Another negative point from what i understand by an instructor that I know personally,You have a lot of legal obligations and recourse if proper action is not taken by you when your an instructor.he said if you see anything wrong while your in the field at the range or whatever and its not reported you have recourse from authorities.Kind of like the hypocritic oath or something. I dont know for a fact but thats what he told me.A lot to expect for a volunteer :twocents:
As far as I know, and I've read the new manual from cover to cover, there's no obligation to do or report anything outside of the course. That would be a personal, moral obligation. There is an obligation to fail someone during the test for any loss of muzzle control, whatsoever and incident reports will be written up after the field test for failing someone. This is my experience only. It may differ slightly from class to class.
[/quote]
You might look at page 17 in the manual and read "Reporting Suspected Abuse."
[/quote]Are you referring to the hunter ed. manual for students?or a manual for instructors?They are differant.
Post by: Bob33 on April 20, 2013, 07:22:09 AM
Post by: steen on April 20, 2013, 09:35:55 AM
Post by: Bob33 on April 20, 2013, 09:43:55 AM
We've informally added up the hours that our team contributes. Several of the instructors give more than 100 hours per year. Thankfully, the state doubled our pay this year. If it weren't for that, all we'd have is the satisfaction of giving back and contributing to seeing the hunting heritage carried on. ;)
Post by: Nick 139 on May 06, 2013, 09:32:55 PM
Post by: Paul Sims on June 06, 2013, 09:11:38 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 06, 2013, 09:35:05 AM
I taught for about 15 years, the "new' policy in 2012 caused me to stop. Initially the state wanted the make model and serial numbers of all the instructor guns used in class, then they wanted those guns permanently disabled. Most of that was put to bed, although reluctantly on the states part, they want only their fake guns used in class. while BS it could be lived with. what drove me out was the REQUIREMENT I read the test to any who asked. Years ago we quit reading without a documented disability because the rules for hunting are contained in a written pamphlet, it is no defense to say someone else read the rules wrong. If you're 10 YO and can't read yet-you have bigger problems. The other issue was the live fire, our class was advertised as a live fire class. We want to see the control a student exercises before, during and after discharge. We were on a shotgun range, so used 20 gauge, which approximates the recoil of a .243, the minimum deer caliber. The new policy read a student could come up to us on Saturday morning and say he/she/it did not want to shoot. We would have been required to put the student through a dry ball exercise and pass them anyway. That was ultimately unacceptable to our team, so 5 people, who spent years in this exercise , quit. As I recall, the rule was you either signed and abided by the new policy or WDFW would disqualify the class, but through out the state today, teams are teaching who did NOT sign the policy and teams are teaching who DID sign the policy but ignored it. Which calls to question--a tenet of the Hunter Ethics we stress is integrity----you can't teach it if you don't live it.
It's a shame you quit. I'm sure over 15 years, you've introduced a great many youngins to hunting. Thank you.
I joined two years ago when the new regulations were being adopted. I'm usually chosen to do the reading to students who are unable to do it for themselves and consider it a privilege to do so. Not all of these students have reading problems because they're young. Some are adults who are illiterate. My opinion, and not to take a stab at you, is that this is about hunting solely, not whether or not someone has any ability to read, whatsoever. If they can retain the spoken word from class enough to pass an orally given exam, they have what they need.
In reference to live fire, we do it in every class and don't tell them it's optional. There's never been a complaint or question.
The regulations seem a bit odd considering that what we're teaching is life and death, and the handling of real, working firearms should be an important part of that. However, that's not enough to keep me away. I feel that the need to bring more hunters into our sport is greater than my own desires regarding the regulations. Therefore, it's an imperative for me to teach Hunter Ed. I get that you have your own reasons to leave the program and you've taught for far more years than I. So, I 'm in no way judging you for departing the program. We all have to keep present what is important here and that's to get more people hunting. Teaching Hunter Ed is one way to do that.
Post by: Paul Sims on June 06, 2013, 11:56:47 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 06, 2013, 12:00:29 PM
Read the manual again, I believe it states you are required to announce there is no requirement to participate in the live fire, by failing to do so, it is a circumvention of the manuals intent. Glad you like to read the test---do you also accompany afield to read the game rules ? or the many signs that limit or restrict access ? It is one thing to be illiterate because you lived in some third world country where reading was not taught, it is yet another to have had the opportunity and the resources and not have been clever enough to have learned. Hunting requires knowledge of the rules and regs and the ability to make appropriate decisions. Perhaps we should just read the driving test to people and send them on the highway. WDFW says that driving is dynamic and hunting is passive so it's different---wow--pull the trigger and see how dynamic things get. Nice thing about volunteers, you get to decide the limits of your involvement and the conditions surrounding it, and I get to decide mine. GREAT people in Hunter Ed, just a suck policy written by someone with no concept of how to educate, who called in the attorneys.
No need to be a jerk Paul. I didn't write the rules. It's probably better you retired. It sounds like you're a real piece of work. Have a nice day.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on June 06, 2013, 12:02:07 PM
Post by: Paul Sims on June 06, 2013, 01:18:11 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 06, 2013, 02:11:11 PM
ouch is right, 15 years of repeat family after family because they thought our team was one of the best they had encountered. I am a piece of work, I have standards and ethics I will not abandon just to appease wdfw or anyone else, I will not celebrate mediocrity nor teach to the lowest common denominator. Our classes did require effort, passing was not a given. but those who passed could hold their own with anyone in the field, will you be able to say the same ? In those years we taught almost 1200 students, any of whom I would hunt with today, knowing they have read and know the regs as well as I. Regardless of your nimrod opinion, It's a legacy I can live with.
In my first response to you, I acknowledged your years of service and was careful to be sensitive in my answers, recognizing that someone who's put 15 years into Hunter Education has probably made quite an impact on our state's hunters. Then you responded like a jerk, telling me the rules and how you don't want to read for people who can't and what I shouldn't do. You showed disdain and less respect for people who are less fortunate in their education than you. Someone's ability to read has nothing to do with their ability to hunt safely or, for that matter, their ability for compassion and understanding. Your disdain for someone with less education than you shows a real character flaw and I'm glad we're not closely associated, never mind teaching together. Attitude is one thing, unlike reading ability, that IS important in Hunter Education students. If one of my students had your attitude in a class and was not willing to change, they would not be allowed to continue. Good luck to you. I'm glad about the iggy option on this forum. I'll be using it for you.
Post by: Paul Sims on June 06, 2013, 02:17:54 PM
Wahoooooo
Post by: jackmaster on June 06, 2013, 02:18:38 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 06, 2013, 02:23:01 PM
i plan on being an instructor, i have always wanted to since i got out of the service, but i couldnt until after i retire, there is no way i can do it now with kids and the wifey, i do however take kids out huntn every year, i will be taking 2 brand new hunters out this year, its a blast watchn youngsters connect on their first critter
I love that, too, Jack. You're good to do that. Like a lot of, I shoot with a little kid from the neighborhood each week. We went yesterday, as a matter of fact. Braxton's getting to be quite a shot now on the 20 yard line. He's itchin' to kill something. I think it'll be another year before he's ready for the class, though. The ADHD part of him keeps me really busy. :chuckle:
Post by: jackmaster on June 06, 2013, 03:12:53 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on June 06, 2013, 03:28:43 PM
Post by: Rob on June 06, 2013, 03:56:56 PM
I like your style and class in all your posts. Well thought out replies.
I hate politics. the idea of sending emails to congressmen and government workers who will only ignore my efforts makes my head hurt. But I feel I have an obligation to the sport, and to my country for it’s freedoms.
More power to those who engage to change things on a government level. I use to have quite a bit of guilt about not participating. Then it occurred to me how I could help change things. Start with the hearts and minds of the masses. Here is what I do:
1. Volunteer as a hunters Ed instructor. This allows me a chance to talked to emerging hunters about ethics and the important role they play as ambassadors for our sport and 2nd amendment beliefs
2. Openly and unapologetically discuss hunting and firearms at work and in recreation. Let people know that this is what I do, and why I do it. How it is a part of our heritage, how it has kept our freedoms, and all the good that managed hunting has done for wildlife in the US and abroad.
3. Teach people to shoot. I take a group of co-workers shooting at least once every 4-6 weeks. After discussing all my hobbies with them it becomes a natural invitation point to see if they want to try shooting some trap or handguns. Many of them have never ever shot before, and some have never ever touched a firearm. The fear and ignorance surrounding firearms in the general population is amazing and something that each and everyone of us can work on.
4. Big Brother program. I became a big brother last year and my goal for the child I work with is to get him exposed to the great outdoors. We go on hikes, have shot pellet guns, and had our first rifle shoot at Kenmore a couple weeks back. Again, this is about winning the hearts and minds of the next generations.
I state the above not to pat myself on the back at all. I share these as ideas to get folks thinking about ways they can help our cause if they are not politically focused or have issues participating in the hunters ed program due to orange guns or disagreements with the state could potentially help our cause.
What I would suggest however, much as what I think Piano man was also stating, is don’t sit back and complain about things, make them better. Get involved. There is nothing in life that will ever be perfect. Don’t wait for a program like the HE program to be perfect before you get involved. It never will be. Get involved in it (or something else) and use that as your megaphone to make things better. Throwing stones in a forum won’t fix anything and only serves to divide us as a group. Crabs in a bucket if you will…
Anyway, thanks to all those who are making a difference. If the HE program is not for you, then thanks for serving elsewhere.
Post by: Paul Sims on June 09, 2013, 09:12:56 AM
There seem to be two camps within Hunter Ed, those who believe their task is to get kids through it, and those who believe their task is to ensure that those who get through it can hunt safely, ethically and responsibly. Those beliefs affect the decisions made--i.e. an instructor mentioned above who won't do live fire because he might have to fail one, and instructors who hold the kids to higher standard.. My experience has been the kids generally rise to the expectations, to have low expectations, to read a test to them when a little effort could fix the issue, to not trust the kids to perform as trained, does a disservice to the program, to the students and the other hunters afield
Post by: snarkybull on June 09, 2013, 05:38:07 PM
"Instructors shall report suspected abuse. If an Instructor suspects that any student has been subjected to physical, mental or sexual abuse, regardless of where it may have occurred, the Instructor must report it immediately by calling 911, local police or the Department of Social and Health Services and advising the Hunter Education Field Coordinator. Report the following information, if known: name, address and age of the child; name and address of parents, guardians or other persons having custody of the child; nature and extent of alleged injuries; nature and extent of alleged neglect; nature and extent of alleged sexual abuse; any evidence of previous injuries; any other information that may be helpful in establishing the cause of the child’s injury and the identity of alleged perpetrator(s). (RCW 26.44.040) "
:o holy crikeys! hunter ed instructors are mandatory reporters? join the club, i guess. every school teacher, childcare worker, foster parent (like me), etc are mandatory reporters.
I am personally frustrated and repulsed by the fact that foster kids are not allowed to handle guns/weapons/bows without a written/signed approval from the freaking president. (minor exaggeration, but not by much) These kids NEED some sort of healthy addiction/passion, and i have plenty to share. but...no.
Post by: bear hunter on June 09, 2013, 05:54:07 PM
The shortage of instructors is why they are encouraging Master Hunters to step up.I think master hunter should be required to teacher a few classes ever year. This might thin out a lot of the surplus master hunter.
Post by: ghosthunter on June 09, 2013, 06:35:26 PM
The state has to get to a point where they charge a deposit of some kind. Otherwise people sign up , take seats, and do not go back on line and cancel. They don't care they have no investment.
Instructors have got deposits in the past. I do not want to collect funds. The State should do it before they allow people to sign up for a class.
Hundreds of seats are lost in classes because they will not require a deposit.
Post by: johnr060 on June 09, 2013, 06:40:23 PM
Post by: WDFW Hates ME!!! on June 09, 2013, 07:01:16 PM
Post by: Dbax129 on June 10, 2013, 05:27:38 PM
I would sure like it if there were more options in kitsap county. Im trying to get some young kids into hunting but its just not possible to drive an hour or more for six days aftere work. Poulsbo sportsmans club didnt even host a class this year, as well as sportsmans wherehouse in silverdale. the very few other classes were booked solid the first few nights the dates were posted. :dunno:
I'm with you. I might do some hoop jumping myself before too long to be an instructor. I doubt it will happen this year, but next year looks good. I would go for the weekend class though vs the 5 nights in a row.
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 11, 2013, 06:29:20 AM
I would sure like it if there were more options in kitsap county. Im trying to get some young kids into hunting but its just not possible to drive an hour or more for six days aftere work. Poulsbo sportsmans club didnt even host a class this year, as well as sportsmans wherehouse in silverdale. the very few other classes were booked solid the first few nights the dates were posted. :dunno:
I'm with you. I might do some hoop jumping myself before too long to be an instructor. I doubt it will happen this year, but next year looks good. I would go for the weekend class though vs the 5 nights in a row.
Sign up and teach, you guys. We could use you in the program. :tup:
Post by: woodswalker on June 11, 2013, 07:01:29 AM
Since I moved into 2 years ago, its been increasingly difficult to find a place to teach. ALL the schools are SO paranoid, even about the department non-guns and archery equipment that we cannot get on campus. this in SHARP contrast to my nearly 15 years teaching in the Sultan school district, although we got moved to the BACK of the campus so as not to scare the sheople.
Now with a few of the businesses that used to support us being GONE...others changed hands and the new owners wanting full house rent, which we cannot afford...we are still looking for a place to teach. We used to run 12 courses a year with about 25-30 per each. I ran 8-10 of 30-35 each at Sultan.
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 11, 2013, 07:06:16 AM
for the guys I teach with, its not about instructors...although several have hung it up with all the new risk-averse and nerf-worlder rules....its about a place to teach.
Since I moved into 2 years ago, its been increasingly difficult to find a place to teach. ALL the schools are SO paranoid, even about the department non-guns and archery equipment that we cannot get on campus. this in SHARP contrast to my nearly 15 years teaching in the Sultan school district, although we got moved to the BACK of the campus so as not to scare the sheople.
Now with a few of the businesses that used to support us being GONE...others changed hands and the new owners wanting full house rent, which we cannot afford...we are still looking for a place to teach. We used to run 12 courses a year with about 25-30 per each. I ran 8-10 of 30-35 each at Sultan.
We're fortunate in Vancouver to have a trap club and the Longshoreman's union hall to use. The Regional DFW office is also close by, so I would think we could use that if in a pinch.