Hunting Washington Forum

Other Hunting => Bird Dogs => Topic started by: Stilly bay on April 03, 2013, 12:49:19 AM

Title: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: Stilly bay on April 03, 2013, 12:49:19 AM: part 1 -since were on the subject of creepy crawlers I would like to know everyone's thoughts on rattle snake vaccines.

my vet talked me out of them last year because the side effects can cause more problems than the bite and the vaccine seems to have a hit or miss record with effectiveness - or limits the damage at best... so I went east and worried about snakes constantly.

whats the average price of a snake vaccine?

part 2 - are there any snake breaking clinics coming up?
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: Maligator on April 03, 2013, 01:38:18 AM: Quote from: Stilly bay on April 03, 2013, 12:49:19 AM
- are there any snake breaking clinics coming up?

What's a snake breaking clinic? Is that where they catch them to be milked for venom? :dunno:
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: Don Fischer on April 03, 2013, 02:38:30 AM: No, it's a program where you take the dog to a snake you put down for it and soon as it give's an indication of the snake you punish it hard. I believe it's kept up until the dog balks really hard soon as it notices the snake. I've had a dog bit once. Scared me pretty good and the dog spent the day at my vet. Think it was him coming on the snake by surprise and getting bit. My understanding is that most snake bite's are done with the dog unaware of the snake. My old shorthair used to point the things, any snake. Only pointed a rattle snake once. Generally I used to avoid areas where I knew there were snakes and just start my season after they go down.
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: jetjockey on April 03, 2013, 04:24:32 AM: Down here is GA a lot of people snake break their dogs because we have a ton of the ba$#€%ds. The problem is, like Don said, it doesn't do any good unless the dog knows the snake is there, which most times they don't. The vaccines supposedly only work with one or two types of venom well, and down her we have something like 7 or 8 different types of poisonous snakes. The easiest way to keep a dog safe from snakes is to wait until they to away for the winter. Down here, 1 or 2 good freezes and cooler afternoon temps usually does the trick. Unfortunately that doesn't usually happen until mid Nov to early Dec. But our quail season runs until the end of February.
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: AspenBud on April 03, 2013, 07:25:41 AM: If I remember correctly...

The vaccine is effective to a point with most varieties of rattlesnake in the country. The big exception being the eastern diamond back at last count. I think it's supposed to be most effective against western diamond back venom, but it provides some protection against the northern pacifics that we have here as well as prairie rattlers further east.

Basically what it's good for is helping fight the allergic reaction that comes with bites, or rather, what more often than not kills dogs when bit. It will not however stop tissue damage from a bite.

I know of a vet out in the Midwest who uses the stuff on his setters every time he heads to SD or ND. But his dogs are not snake broke either.
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: boneaddict on April 03, 2013, 07:34:39 AM: Not a dog owner, but as a scientist I'd suggest training over vaccination. The necrotizing enzyme is going to do its damage, vaccination or not. It may prevent or assist in preventing anaphylaxis or DIC, but it sure isn't going to stop all the damage. Best that you can hope for is avoidance, or a dry bite and I wouldn't want to put my chips down on the latter. :twocents:
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: bearpaw on April 03, 2013, 08:21:58 AM: We don't have a lot of rattlesnakes in NE WA, but I had a hound that got bit several years ago, her leg got huge fast and she nearly died, can't remember what the vet did for her exactly, but after several months she was practically as good as new, although she always had a small permanent swelling where she was bitten even years afterward. If you are hunting in heavily infested snake country it seems it would be good to break hunting dogs off snakes.
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: KopperBuck on April 03, 2013, 08:35:15 AM: I'd go the break route. I have an uncle that does in SE OR.

I've been talked out of the vaccination by my pops, who's a vet. My fiance got talked out of it when she went in a few years back. We have them on this end of the valley, so I'm back to being worried about it again, especially with a pup running around.

Seen this guy on the road this weekend, haven't seen any of his nastier cousins yet. He was right at 3ft.

(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi45.tinypic.com%2Fk0g3v9.jpg&hash=f80edd9b2f68556564d0470baf5032a74bb1c534)
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: Stilly bay on April 03, 2013, 09:42:11 AM: so is any one putting on a snake breaking clinic? Rent a Rattler?

it seems like for every person I talk to that is for the vaccine there is one against it. it seems like the extra insurance would be worth the peace of mind... but then you have to stress about side effects or permanent damage. :bash:

of course as a Westside flatlander I am preoccupied about the possibility rattlesnakes being any where and every where east of the mountains... Do they make Grizzly bear and Wolf vaccines too?
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: AspenBud on April 03, 2013, 09:43:00 AM: The problem with the vaccine is it's the most likely to cause a reaction of all the vaccines out there. If you get it for your dog, have the vet give it in the morning and wait 30-60 minutes afterwards. Nothing worse than getting a vaccine at 5:00 PM only to have to make an expensive trip to an emergency vet after hours because of a reaction.

As others have already said, snake breaking is your best defense as is trying to avoid snaky areas. But as has also been said, being a hunting dog is a dangerous occupation, a fast moving pointer may still unknowingly run over one and get bit...
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: 10Key on April 03, 2013, 10:35:20 AM: Your paranoia regarding buzz-worms is not baseless. I grew up on Tri-Cities and bank fished extensively there from age 5 to 30, only ever ran into one rattler and that was on the Snake River. Now fast forward a decade or so, I now bird-hunt over a dog, mostly in EWA. In three seasons of dog hunting, I have seen more rattlers than the previous thirty years. All in various locations from Ellensburg, to Chelan, to the Palouse, to the Yaki Training grounds. They are out there, it is a hazard of the hobby. My "vaccine" this year is to shy away from hunting the lowlands of EWA in the early season. I will be sticking to grouse in the high country until we see some consistent cold weather on the east side.

Quote from: Stilly bay on April 03, 2013, 09:42:11 AM
so is any one putting on a snake breaking clinic? Rent a Rattler?

it seems like for every person I talk to that is for the vaccine there is one against it. it seems like the extra insurance would be worth the peace of mind... but then you have to stress about side effects or permanent damage. :bash:

of course as a Westside flatlander I am preoccupied about the possibility rattlesnakes being any where and every where east of the mountains... Do they make Grizzly bear and Wolf vaccines too?
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: Bluemoon on April 03, 2013, 02:46:55 PM: "The problem with the vaccine is it's the most likely to cause a reaction of all the vaccines out there. If you get it for your dog, have the vet give it in the morning and wait 30-60 minutes afterwards. Nothing worse than getting a vaccine at 5:00 PM only to have to make an expensive trip to an emergency vet after hours because of a reaction."

Where did you get this information? I am a big fan of the Vaccine, in the past 6 years I have given it to well over 30 dogs and have never seen a reaction. For $22.00 a shot it is very cheap insurance against the $900.00 plus a vile for the anti venom you will need without them.
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: AspenBud on April 03, 2013, 04:10:26 PM: Quote from: Bluemoon on April 03, 2013, 02:46:55 PM
"The problem with the vaccine is it's the most likely to cause a reaction of all the vaccines out there. If you get it for your dog, have the vet give it in the morning and wait 30-60 minutes afterwards. Nothing worse than getting a vaccine at 5:00 PM only to have to make an expensive trip to an emergency vet after hours because of a reaction."

Where did you get this information? I am a big fan of the Vaccine, in the past 6 years I have given it to well over 30 dogs and have never seen a reaction.

The vet I referenced earlier in this thread. According to him the reactions run the gamut from a small swollen spot at the point of injection to more severe reactions.

For the record, he says he has never had a reaction in his dogs either.

Even with the vaccine a dog is making a trip to the vet in the event of a bite. Or should at least...
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: AspenBud on April 03, 2013, 05:01:32 PM: This is a cross post from a different forum regarding the snake vaccine, but I think it's important to note some things from it.

1. A DVM on there mentions the fact that his brother's lab died after a bite even with the vaccine.
2. A field trialer on there mentions vaccinating multiple dogs and having them get nasty reactions at the point of injection.

http://www.michiganwaterfowl.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2031268 (http://www.michiganwaterfowl.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2031268)

If I were hunting my dogs in snake country at a time of year when they are active I would use the stuff, but I would probably also snake break my dogs before venturing into such areas too.
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: wildweeds on April 03, 2013, 09:40:17 PM: My buddy an older gentleman in his 80's vaccinates his pointers,he hunts eastern montana in an area with rattlers,he's had a vaccinated dog bitten,a night at the vets for observation and hunting the next day with no ill effects.This man has hunted in alot of territory,georgia,alabama,tennesee,texas,arizona,washington,california.A carrerr retired army man he hunted where he was stationed.No problems with ill effects at the vaccination poiint.

My trainer has run dogs for 30 years and has vaccinated none and only had 2 bitten by snakes that would have been bitten even if they were snake broke.He considers snake breaking a rip off and will have nothing to do with it.As most dogs get bit on the fly by while hunting.

My hound connection moved to arizona and had every one of his cat dogs bit by snakes in his yard,being a true hound guy he did not take a single one to the vet and did his own vetting,all survived with a heavy dose of benedryl.He told me one bitch was never the same and expired early at 7 years old which he attributed to the snake bite a couple years before.

I hate snakes myself and just hold on for cold weather,I've seen 2 in my birdhunting endeavors,they were slow moving and I left them be and did not diagnose whether they were rattler or bull.

I've had several dogs have reactions to shots for parvo/distemper/coronovirus because of these reactions does that mean that I should not vaccinate at all?
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: boneaddict on April 04, 2013, 07:19:00 AM: Poisonous snake bite vaccine for dogs can prevent pain and suffering and may save the dog's life. Cost is minimal and only yearly boosters are necessary after the initial round of vaccinations. Probably about 30 bucks and then about 20 and 20 more. Dogs that are bitten by venomous snakes must get emergency treatment even if they have received the bite vaccine, so you really aren't saving much for vet bills. I think its 3 in a million or something like that that have reaction to the vaccination serious enough to cause death. Most of the time 1 and a 1000, discomfort and swelling at injection site. If you love your dog and have the money, its insurance and probably wouldn't hurt. I stll think if you are hunting snake country your dogs should be snake broke somehow, of course skunk broke and porcupine broke might also be good ideas. :)
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: JM on April 04, 2013, 07:41:04 AM: I had my lab vaccinated. My reasoning behind it was to give me more time to get her to the vet if she is bitten. My grandpa's hounds used to get bit on occasion, and I'll never forget when I was a kid and watching a 100 pound walker that would chase bear and cat turn inside out trying to get away from a little rattler that we had in our garage.
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 04, 2013, 07:54:14 AM: I have had two dogs bit by rattlesnakes. One was vaccinated and was 62 days into her pregnancy... (1 day from due!). She was down for 24 hours and swelled up pretty quick but it was otherwise a concern with fever and pain management. The other dog hadn't been vaccinated and swelled up BAD and was down for a few days.

I would suggest vaccinating them for snakebite if it is a concern. It's money well spent.
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: Don Fischer on April 04, 2013, 11:08:48 AM: What I understand about the vaccine is that it will not save your dog, it does give you more time to get to the vet though. I've also read that most snake bite's are dry bite's. Dry or not I would worry. We had a vet years ago come to a club meeting and he was asked about snake bite. He said get the dog calm and keep him that way; by the time you get to a vet the dog will be dead or better. Stop and think about some of the place's we hunt, no vet within a lot miles!
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 04, 2013, 12:16:17 PM: I have not see a dog die from snakebite. I guess a small dog bit in a bad spot (throat?) might die, but my border collie swelled up and was miserabel, but lived. My Aussie got bit right on the face and lived. She was swelled and miserable, but dogs can take some abuse.
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: AspenBud on April 04, 2013, 12:39:52 PM: Quote from: WAcoyotehunter on April 04, 2013, 12:16:17 PM
I have not see a dog die from snakebite. I guess a small dog bit in a bad spot (throat?) might die, but my border collie swelled up and was miserabel, but lived. My Aussie got bit right on the face and lived. She was swelled and miserable, but dogs can take some abuse.

Severity depends on the snake and the nature of the bite. My wife did a veterinary externship down in Bend a few years ago and encountered a lab that had been bit and in the end the dog lost the affected leg.

It's also educational to hop on the Pointing Dog Journal forum if you have a subscription. Some of those guys absolutely loathe rattlesnakes as they have had dogs maimed and killed by them.

Look, a well bred, well trained bird dog is an expensive and time consuming investment. Why take chances when there are ways to minimize them? We throw the dice every time we take them out as it is.
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 04, 2013, 01:31:28 PM: I agree. Get the vaccine and take your chances. If they get bit, it's going to help.
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: AWS on April 04, 2013, 02:03:22 PM: In Feb. my GWHP was snake bit while coyote hunting in NM. I never knew it happenned, neither did the dog. Dog got bit in the side behind the front leg, must have got it running past the snake. Pretty sick dog, vet didn't use anti-venoum just massive doses of Benidryl, Rimadryl and another anti-inflamitory. Took about a week for him to get back to 100%
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: Smossy on April 04, 2013, 02:12:10 PM: Quote from: KopperBuck on April 03, 2013, 08:35:15 AM
I'd go the break route. I have an uncle that does in SE OR.

I've been talked out of the vaccination by my pops, who's a vet. My fiance got talked out of it when she went in a few years back. We have them on this end of the valley, so I'm back to being worried about it again, especially with a pup running around.

Seen this guy on the road this weekend, haven't seen any of his nastier cousins yet. He was right at 3ft.

(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi45.tinypic.com%2Fk0g3v9.jpg&hash=f80edd9b2f68556564d0470baf5032a74bb1c534)
Gardener snake?
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on April 04, 2013, 02:27:59 PM: garter. I saw my first two of them yesterday up here in Pend Oreille Co.
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: coveydogs on April 04, 2013, 02:57:37 PM: I get my pups vaccinated every year. One had a mild reaction (golf ball size swell) the first year to the vaccination, nothing years since. I hunt lots of big country in a lot of states, if it gives me 4 hours instead of 2 to get to a vet, it gets my 30 bucks.

I also snake break my dogs. NAVHDA chapter in Portland puts on a good clinic every year, worth the drive. http://pnwnavhda.com/ (http://pnwnavhda.com/) site has contacts you could email about the dates, not sure when they are having it this year. They do sight, smell and sound stations for the dogs which I think make sense. Zap the dog up on the rattle, when the dogs smells the snake and when the dog sees one. All three are in separate locations in the field on different snakes.

I try not to hunt areas snakes are common until after it gets cold, and I have not had a problem. Porkies on the other hand...
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: elkaholic33 on April 05, 2013, 09:52:03 AM: I had two dogs bit by a snake a few years ago.

My lab got bit on the nose, so it was obvious. We took her to the vet right away and the vet gave her benadryl. Next day, good as new.

My gsp got bit under the jaw. It must have pointed the snake and the snake came up and bit him. I could not find the puncture, so he did not go to the vet. Next day he was so swelled up. Took him to the vet and he got an IV since he was dehydrated. Couple days later, was back to normal. Dead skin under his jaw, but that is the only thing that would let you know he was ever bit.

Vet told us that most dogs do not need anti-venom.

I carry children's benadryl with me out hunting. Recommended dosage for dogs is 1mb/1lb. Children's benadryl is 12.5mg. 4 for the shorthair. 6 for the lab.

Talk to your vet to see what they recommend.

Jasen
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: Shannon on April 05, 2013, 04:36:23 PM: I vaccinate my dogs every year. I had a dog bit about 5 feet from me one day and he never knew he was bit. He started foaming at the mouth and was real sluggish. His foot was starting to swell in minutes. We rushed him to the closest vet in BFE Montana. He spent the night there and we cut the hunt a day short and brought the dog home. The dog was a weim and normally had skinny legs. When we picked him up his leg was as big around as my upper fore arm. The doctor swore by the vaccine and said he sees 200+ snake bites a year. He said it doubles your time to get the dog to a vet but if the snake hits a vain the dog will die within an hour. Vaccine or no vaccine. Fortunately my buddies dog made it just fine without any lasting side affects. The vet said the tissue damage is less with vaccinated dogs. I had a vet in Omak tell me she thought it was a waste of time though. I still do it every year because I hunt so far from civilization. My buddies dog got bit the last week of October and it was 19 degrees. So much for waiting until its cold to avoid snakes.
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: Birddogman on April 07, 2013, 09:23:27 AM: I would consider vaccinating my dog where I hunt Chukar. But what I do is wait for the first good freeze, and generally after that you are alright. I have hunted rattlesnake country with my dogs for 7 years and no issues so far. I do carry benedryl just in case though. At least this gives my dog a chance if they were bit in the face or an area they can't take too much swelling in. There is a group that has hosted classes in the past though, Central Washington Pointing Dog Club. It is a little early to see these clinics pop up, put if i see one I'll let you know. If you want to DIY, PM me and I'll tell you how i have done it and seen it done.
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: wildweeds on April 07, 2013, 10:24:45 AM: For do it yourselfers if you have a sack big enough to go catch a snake,I know a fellow that catches a snake,put's it in a gunny sack,inserts the gunnysack in a cooler full of blocked ice,wait for the snake to cool off and become sluggish,remove snake,pry jaw open,remove fangs with pliers and then stitch mouth shut,and let warm back up and use on your dog for multiple training sessions,for release,back in cooler,cut stitches,place on ground and hit the road.For those with sack enough to catch one and implement the easy red button on maximum power training who are greedy and looking to make a quick buck,you can catch some snakes and put on an aversion clinic to make money,plenty of fools willing to shell out 75 bucks for a chance to work the dog on a snake.The guy I know did it for free with all the locals around Pomeroy.
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: MP123 on April 08, 2013, 11:40:44 AM: My Brit gets the vaccine with no issues what so ever. For $20 it seems like a no brainer since I run her in snake country sometimes.
Title: Re: Snakes - vaccinating and breaking?
Post by: Birddogman on April 09, 2013, 07:26:16 PM: vaccine is not a guarantee that the dog will not swell up and die due to loss of air. Most snake bites on dogs are in the face or around the head since the dog "investigates" the smell and then gets hammered. I personally wait for the freeze.